Chill of the Deep

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Rumble - Harshlands
Rumble - Harshlands Posts: 211 Arc User
edited March 2010 in Assassin
Has anyone done the math on Chill of Deep to see what the difference on attack rate loss is compared with increase in attack level? Meaning isn't the idea of a Sin to have high DPS and don't they get more from more attacks in? So if you can kill a mob faster you get hit less.

So in summary I have no idea how the numbers work, but has anyone run numbers with mobs your current level with CoD leveled at different levels to see how quick it is killed? Does the increase in attack rate greatly offset the speed loss enough to use it?
Post edited by Rumble - Harshlands on
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  • Somebody - Raging Tide
    Somebody - Raging Tide Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Rumble - Harshlands wrote: »
    Has anyone done the math on Chill of Deep to see what the difference on attack rate loss is compared with increase in attack level? Meaning isn't the idea of a Sin to have high DPS and don't they get more from more attacks in? So if you can kill a mob faster you get hit less.

    So in summary I have no idea how the numbers work, but has anyone run numbers with mobs your current level with CoD leveled at different levels to see how quick it is killed? Does the increase in attack rate greatly offset the speed loss enough to use it?

    as a sin with lvl 10 chill i can say its EPIC in PvP and sucks in PvE.
    for PvE you want fast damage.
    for PvP you want to hit really hard. regular hits aren't that good in PvP mostly.
  • rikako
    rikako Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    against AA / LA = Chill of Deep = good
    against HA = if u use no cash shop = bad~useable
    against HA = if u use cash shop = bad to use it, interval gear + regular hits > Chill.

    in PvE always use regular hits, the damage is quite high and fast.
  • Rumble - Harshlands
    Rumble - Harshlands Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Not sure I understand the logic here though in the explanation and this is why. Isn't it always better in PvE or PvP to kill someone/something quicker? So my question was more does it give a high enough attack boost to offset the speed loss. I will give an example that is not based on fac, but generic numbers to illustrate what I mean. Please do not flame me for the figures I am using to show. What I want is someone who know exact numbers and how attacks, etc are calculated to take this and run it with real numbers.

    As an a very rough example to illustrate my question let's say you have a Sin with CoD leveled to 10. He attacks a mob or another player the same level. (I understand that class may play a role in factoring in some as in against HA, LA or Arcane, but it shouldn't matter that much given my example). Let's say the attacked has 3000 hp

    Without CoD lets say the damage done is 500 per hit and they can do 2 hits per second. That would mean that in 3 seconds the mob/player is dead (assuming no charms/pots/genie skills, etc)

    Let's say with CoD the damage is increased to 750 per hit, but they can now only do 1 hit per second. That means it now takes 4 seconds to kill.

    With CoD on it takes longer to kill the target. In PvP or PvE that means the target has more time to attack back where the attacker might take more damage or die or in PvP more time for a charm to tick or to heal themselves.

    So if someone can run the math illustration above using real data that would be great. Even better if it was looked at by each level of CoD to see where it crosses the threshold of a useful skill to great skill if that is what is determined. I understand so many variable are at play such as what weapon is used, etc and there might be different multipliers in effect, but let's assume maybe +3 legendary weapon used. Nothing crazy, but certainly attainable. It might even work out to be the same for +10 based on how its calculated since you'd get more hits in without CoD with a +10 vs less hits but higher damage with.

    Hope this question makes sense now and someone can prove it out.

    Thanks
  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    I think you misunderstand the skil

    At lvl 10, it reduces your attack speed by 100%. In other words, you'll have the minimum attack speed. Nomather how high your dmg is, unles it can compare to a wizzy's nuke, that's not worth it.

    However, attack speed from skils don't have anything to do with attack speed from normal attacks. Only channeling + cast time. CotD does however increase skill dmg.
    In other words, when you use chill of the deep, you spam skils, and ONLY skils. This will give you a massive boost in dmg per hit, which is importent for PvP (while you can go with high attack speed in PvE, cause the mob won't heal or have a charm anyway)
    9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm not crazy... the 10th is singing the music of tetris
  • Rumble - Harshlands
    Rumble - Harshlands Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Thank you Sirrobert. That is definitely a good point and something for me to consider in PvP situations. I would have to agree that it would have a huge impact then. I thought it was just normal attacks that effected, but what you says makes sense. Can anyone confirm this 100% though?

    I would still like to see the math played out for normal attacks. Perhaps you could even consider a simple combo of the bleed skill followed by maybe rib strike or something and the rest normal attacks or all normal attacks. As I understand it it is not truly 100% reduction in attack speed. If your attack speed was X then a 100% reduction would be X and you wouldn't attack at all, only skills. Is this true? If not then what is the actual rate and what is the math as I requested above? Even if it is 100% I'm sure that along the sliding scale there is a break point where CoD is useful for PvE or attacks. Like say it crosses teh threshold at level 7 CoD or something Again someone a lot smarter then I would need to do this math. b:thanks
  • Trawne - Lost City
    Trawne - Lost City Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    sirrobert is correct. it gives you + 30 attack levels (at 10) which affects normal swings as well as skills. if you have CotD up, you spam skills. this makes raving slash/twin strike needed as skill spamming without them will be difficult.

    if you have the money to get - interval gear though you're still better off using that
    I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington
  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Well, 100% reduction will probably just place you on the minimum attack speed (I gues there is 1)

    Other than that yes, attack lvl increases all your dmg, including skils
    9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm not crazy... the 10th is singing the music of tetris
  • Astoru - Heavens Tear
    Astoru - Heavens Tear Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    For a melee class, one would imagine that you would want a higher DPS rather than DPH.

    That's what wizards are for.
    ●Wizard (Male) - Fasditious and pretentious, carries the arrogance of intellectual superiority. Feels the need to remind everyone of his world-ending power, but grows a little manic and unhinged when he finally is allowed to unleash it. "Ahh-hahahahaha!! NOW YOU ALL BURN!!!!"
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    For a melee class, one would imagine that you would want a higher DPS rather than DPH.

    That's what wizards are for.

    must....drop...barbs...and....BMs........
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  • Rumble - Harshlands
    Rumble - Harshlands Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    I appreciate everyone's responses and the clarification for usage. It makes sense, but at the risk of sounding repetitive any number crunchers out there want to give this a go? I'd love to see what the attack speed is at level 10 for someone without -interval gear and how quickly you can drop a mob with it on vs off, using skills versus no skills, etc.

    I know there's a couple Good Will Hunting kids out there that love to do these proofs. Any in the Sin forums?? lol

    Thanks
  • SilentReaper - Harshlands
    SilentReaper - Harshlands Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    The attack speed with level 10 chill of the deep is 0.25 attacks per second, I believe. With the amount of damage our skills add to the attacks, combined with the +30% from the raised attack level, using normal attacks is just not worth it. At all. Once you have chill up, you should be prepared to spam skills if you want to get anything killed efficiently.
    Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    For a melee class, one would imagine that you would want a higher DPS rather than DPH.

    That's what wizards are for.

    With normal attacks. But sins rely on skills in pvp, just as wizards do. We're like wizards in the way we're meant to do spike damage in order to kill other people, but our 'nukes' do physical damage instead.

    Plus, we have stealth. Which is highly annoying to others, and fun as hell for us :D
  • RADD_RATT - Harshlands
    RADD_RATT - Harshlands Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    chill is not meant to be used with regular attacks at any lvl. and like most of you are saying its a PvP thing. if youre tankin a boss or somthing youre best bet is to keep bloodpaint on and keep your double spark up. maybe a pot here and there but i can tank a lot of bosses that way. but theres a little trick with chill that most sins dont know. ...remember that useless skill twinstrike that you used 2 or 3 times at lvl 1 and swore to never use it again? thats youre regular attack when you have chill on. chill is your 1 shot buff. use it with double sparks and head hunt and a few other skills but when things are on cool down you use twin strike. NEVER use reg hit with it.
  • Blackmail - Raging Tide
    Blackmail - Raging Tide Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Twin Strike? Well that's a shocker... guess it's time for me to dust it off and pump spirit into it.

    O wow, now that I think about it, twin strike is two hits! So that's like...double the chance of critting somewhere in there!

    b:victory
  • RADD_RATT - Harshlands
    RADD_RATT - Harshlands Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Blackmail - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Twin Strike? Well that's a shocker... guess it's time for me to dust it off and pump spirit into it.

    O wow, now that I think about it, twin strike is two hits! So that's like...double the chance of critting somewhere in there!

    b:victory

    youre welcome
  • Tapion_ - Dreamweaver
    Tapion_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Twin Strike is 2 hits in 1? I thought it was just a fancy name. I better dust off that skill too.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Falathrim - Lost City
    Falathrim - Lost City Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    My guess, at 90+

    CotD+Sage=Godly

    CotD+Demon=Useless

    It won't be absolutely useless for demon assasin, but my guess is that demon assasins are going for the atk/sec cuz of demon spark. For Sages though with sage weapon mastery, that extra +30 atk lvl is going to be dealing out some high hits.

    Deciding which is better is a different debate.
  • Rumble - Harshlands
    Rumble - Harshlands Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Somewhat unrelated on my own thread lol, but can someone elaborate on this twin strike thing? Someone is making it seem like it hits twice. So if the skill at any given level says it does X amount of damage does it really do 2X in that same time? Meaning it swings twice automatically for the same amount of mana use? If so this greatly changes the skill and my opinion of it. Essentially it does double damage if that's true.

    Thoughts?
  • RADD_RATT - Harshlands
    RADD_RATT - Harshlands Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Rumble - Harshlands wrote: »
    Somewhat unrelated on my own thread lol, but can someone elaborate on this twin strike thing? Someone is making it seem like it hits twice. So if the skill at any given level says it does X amount of damage does it really do 2X in that same time? Meaning it swings twice automatically for the same amount of mana use? If so this greatly changes the skill and my opinion of it. Essentially it does double damage if that's true.

    Thoughts?

    nope. it only hits once. not sure why someone said itr hits twice but it hought they were being sarcastic
  • SilentReaper - Harshlands
    SilentReaper - Harshlands Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Rumble - Harshlands wrote: »
    Somewhat unrelated on my own thread lol, but can someone elaborate on this twin strike thing? Someone is making it seem like it hits twice. So if the skill at any given level says it does X amount of damage does it really do 2X in that same time? Meaning it swings twice automatically for the same amount of mana use? If so this greatly changes the skill and my opinion of it. Essentially it does double damage if that's true.

    Thoughts?

    It only hits once.
    But it is indeed handy as a damage management tool when you have CoD on.
  • Norvian - Lost City
    Norvian - Lost City Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Rumble - Harshlands wrote: »
    Thank you Sirrobert. That is definitely a good point and something for me to consider in PvP situations. I would have to agree that it would have a huge impact then. I thought it was just normal attacks that effected, but what you says makes sense. Can anyone confirm this 100% though?

    I would still like to see the math played out for normal attacks. Perhaps you could even consider a simple combo of the bleed skill followed by maybe rib strike or something and the rest normal attacks or all normal attacks. As I understand it it is not truly 100% reduction in attack speed. If your attack speed was X then a 100% reduction would be X and you wouldn't attack at all, only skills. Is this true? If not then what is the actual rate and what is the math as I requested above? Even if it is 100% I'm sure that along the sliding scale there is a break point where CoD is useful for PvE or attacks. Like say it crosses teh threshold at level 7 CoD or something Again someone a lot smarter then I would need to do this math. b:thanks

    Ok i dont have numbers but ive tasted my self i only have the skill at lvl 2 thought wich decreases me 60% BUT JIST NORMAL ATTAKS, and after all assassin are not to do normal attacks between skill attacks, SO CoD its a must to have skill
  • Norvian - Lost City
    Norvian - Lost City Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    SilentReaper - Harshlands wrote: »
    The attack speed with level 10 chill of the deep is 0.25 attacks per second, I believe. With the amount of damage our skills add to the attacks, combined with the +30% from the raised attack level, using normal attacks is just not worth it. At all. Once you have chill up, you should be prepared to spam skills if you want to get anything killed efficiently.



    With normal attacks. But sins rely on skills in pvp, just as wizards do. We're like wizards in the way we're meant to do spike damage in order to kill other people, but our 'nukes' do physical damage instead.

    Plus, we have stealth. Which is highly annoying to others, and fun as hell for us :D

    Duh, that is the only efient way to kill anyways i alsmot NEVER do normal attacks i do only if the combo didnt work and what is left is just a lil HP then i wont waste MP on a skill, but even then i use Twin Strike which consumes low MP and though cast faster than a normal atack while CoD on. I dont know how ppl forgets and even underestimate Twin Strike.

    ASSASSIN PLAYERS OUT THERE WE ARE NOT MEANT TO NORMAL ATTACK
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Norvian - Lost City wrote: »
    ASSASSIN PLAYERS OUT THERE WE ARE NOT MEANT TO NORMAL ATTACK

    Til you stack -int gears...

    And Twin Strike fails... hardcore...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Norvian - Lost City
    Norvian - Lost City Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Blackmail - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Twin Strike? Well that's a shocker... guess it's time for me to dust it off and pump spirit into it.

    O wow, now that I think about it, twin strike is two hits! So that's like...double the chance of critting somewhere in there!

    b:victory

    who knows maybe with sage/deamon skill Hopefully
  • Norvian - Lost City
    Norvian - Lost City Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Til you stack -int gears...

    And Twin Strike fails... hardcore...

    jajaja no not at all, just on pot here and there after fight or two im lvl 58 so i dont know about end game but i dont think it will change that much.
  • Norvian - Lost City
    Norvian - Lost City Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    i did a post called, To CoD or not To CoD, doing a rough example of how it works in batle based on my in game experience, still rough but it shows up some points we can work on.
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Norvian - Lost City wrote: »
    jajaja no not at all, just on pot here and there after fight or two im lvl 58 so i dont know about end game but i dont think it will change that much.

    When you stacked -int gears, spamming skills would be only for their effect and normal attacks would do much more damage in the same amount of time.

    Twin Strike fails because the time it takes for you to stop normal attack and channel then cast it, you could've gotten a couple of normal attacks in which would be grater than 1 hit of level 10 Twin.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • RADD_RATT - Harshlands
    RADD_RATT - Harshlands Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    When you stacked -int gears, spamming skills would be only for their effect and normal attacks would do much more damage in the same amount of time.

    Twin Strike fails because the time it takes for you to stop normal attack and channel then cast it, you could've gotten a couple of normal attacks in which would be grater than 1 hit of level 10 Twin.

    ...unless you have cod on
  • Trawne - Lost City
    Trawne - Lost City Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »
    ...unless you have cod on

    ^^^this. twin strike would be a completely useless skill....unless you have CoD up. there just aren't enough skills to spam without also using either twin strike or raving slash as well. and twin strike is a very fast skill to use
    I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    With just bleed, Tacking, Rib, Slipstream and Rising Dragon you can constantly spam skills. There's no need for Twin.
    RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »
    ...unless you have cod on
    If you had end game -int gears, you wouldn't put CoD on in the first place anyways.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Trawne - Lost City
    Trawne - Lost City Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    With just bleed, Tacking, Rib, Slipstream and Rising Dragon you can constantly spam skills. There's no need for Twin.


    If you had end game -int gears, you wouldn't put CoD on in the first place anyways.

    rising dragon has a 30 second CD. you can not spam that b:bye
    I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington

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