Etiquette

Abominus - Sanctuary

So I was killing some lower level mobs, primarily for sport and a young BM swoops down and begins picking up the drops. He doesn't say a word to me, and when I say hello to him, he still says nothing, and only flies off because the mobs began attacking him (which he was not strong enough to defeat on his own).

I try to PM the gentleman, no answer. I request an officer from his faction in WC contact me, and one does. I explain to him that the drops that fell I did not need, I would have freely given them to the BM had he asked, or even acknowledged my presence. The officer then kind of cut me off stating that the game gives me ample time to collect any drops, and that any I do not collect are fair game. We spoke for a minute or so, until it became clear that he was going to "defend" his BM, and that he was not getting my point at all.

My point in having him contact me, and indeed in PMing the BM initially wasn't to get the items back or seek any sort of retribution. I was simply trying to make him understand that just coming in and taking drops you did not earn can cause problems for him down the line. It's one thing if there are drops and the person who got them abandoned them. It's quite another thing if the person is still there, actively killing the mobs, and you just help yourself to them without saying anything to them.

Fortunately for the BM, I'm not a jerk, and don't believe in throwing my weight around. I understand everyone else's time is just as important as mine. I'm of the opinion that higher level players have a responsibility to assist lower level players, so that they can have the most enjoyable PWI experience possible. However there are a lot of higher level people who would have begun KSing or PKing the guy over something like that, and that was why I was trying to make him aware that it's probably not a good idea to simply swoop in and take someone else's drops. If he does it to the wrong person he could bring a lot of grief on both himself and his faction, and you would think someone would appreciate that.

In general, I abhor rudeness. It's similar to when there are events or oracles or whatever the case may be when you're killing a mob that respawns, and someone walks up to the spot, doesn't say a word to you, and then automatically begins killing on the next spawn. Would it really kill them to acknowledge the other player(s) there and see about getting into the rotation? I've never declined anyone that's wanted to get into the rotation, but I just find it rude to not acknowledge the other players. In the case of the officer, I found it more shocking that he would attempt to justify why his BM "had the right" to take the drops instead of extracting the lesson on common courtesy and imparting that on his friend. I think that teaching your people that you can do anything "you have the right to do" is a dangerous lesson because it breeds a certain mentality that will be hard to break away from once he gets up in levels, and will ultimately be counter productive to his end goals. But perhaps the problem falls to me for foolishly believing that common courtesy was in fact alive and well in this day and age...
b:sad

Santacruz - Heavens Tear

some people are just rude, facts of life unfortunately

i once saw 90+ cleric killing low lvl mobs that i needed, i pmed him " you actually need them or you just being an ****" to which he replied "i dont actually, i just need the drops for crafting" so i said fair enough and gave him space to kill the mobs, coz its fair game.

communication is a big factor of being a nice, some people lack it

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Well, yes - it's better to be nice and ask.

But in general - lots and LOTS of people leave drops around that they don't want. Heck if I know why, maybe they're low on inventory slots and are saving them for specific drops - though why they don't at least grab the coin is beyond me.

And so, seeing someone killing stuff and not taking the drops - I'd make the assumption that this is what you are doing. I'd also probably double check and ask you if I could have them, but that's because I'm nice.

Picking up abandoned drops before they rot is pretty common in this game, is all I'm really saying.
Edit: Heck, even the newbie "How to make money" guides talk about doing it.

And, out of interest, why hadn't you picked them up?

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

etiquette doesnt exist. the sheep here like to '+1' the morally bankrupt and the bullies of the forum, even when these same 'pro trolls' insult them daily as well. their minds act like a cohesive unit of sheep who care for nothing but their own little pleasure. expect kindness from no one in this monument to ignorance.

Abominus - Sanctuary

I didn't need the drops. I didn't mind so much that he took them (if he needed them, then he was welcome to them) as much as he did it without so much as an acknowledgement that I was there. When I said hello to him, and he ignored me, and then when I attempted to PM him, and he ignored me, that was what I found rude.

In a way I'm glad he did it to me, because I'm not going to grief him over it. But there are people who would, and it could be avoided by him communicating with the person who is making the drops available to you. Either A)they mind you taking the drops in which case you should probably leave them alone, and there's no problem...or B)the person doesn't mind you having the drops and you take them and go about your merry way, and there's no problem. But C)swooping down and taking items while ignoring the person earning them can cause problems if he's not careful. That's all I wanted to tell him.

In Santacruz's case, had she needed the drops or the mobs, and I didn't I would have left them to her. It's just the right thing to do.

Maragon - Dreamweaver

In this case I tend to use this rule.

Since the cooldown is not a good indicator of when drops are really available because of issues such as bobs spawning on top of you or a kiter running you into other mobs. If someone is killing mobs and mobs drop loot (particularly mats cuz i hoard themb:surrender) I will wait for the person to obviously pass them by. In other words, if the person is not being attacked, is not attacking anything, and has had more than enough time like this to pick them then I will pick them up myself because it appears to be obvious that the person is making no effort to gather the loot themself.

However you are correct in saying that making a habit of gathering other people's drops is a dangerous precedent.

Abominus - Sanctuary

And under your rule, Maragon, should the person killing the mobs say, "Hello" to you, would you say hello back, or acknowledge them in some way, shape, or form...or would you not say anything at all.

I think you probably would do the former, because you sound reasonable and like you in good faith are not trying to "steal" from someone. The only two reasons I can think of why the gentleman did not respond to me is either A)He did not speak English, or B)he felt he was probably doing something wrong and wanted to avoid me for fear of some sort of reprisal. I'm guessing it's probably B, because the faction officer spoke perfect English.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Normally I'm the voice of compassion in situations like these, but... we do have a drop timer for a reason. :-/

If you're high level and you encounter problems with a second or third mob before you can pick up the first one's drops, okay. But I've seen people leave tons of coins and DQs lying around, which clearly had "cooled off," and yet they still yelled at me when I took them. They would probably have disappeared anyway, had I not taken them.

So it's all relative. Like Santa said, ask the potential "thief" first.

My policy is:

• If I see one mobs' worth of drops that I could pick up, and there is a person nearby who probably has rightful claim to them, I stop near the items and watch to see if the owner claims them. If they move away, then I grab them.
• If I see LOTS of mobs' worth of drops, I pick them up, period. The rightful owner clearly does not want them.
• If someome takes one of my drops that I don't get to in time, I ask for it back. Politely.
• Conversely, if someone ever questions me for taking their drop... whether or not I return it depends on their conduct. If they're nice, they get it back. If they yell at me, I keep it - their fault for neglecting it in the first place (but again, I only pick up things I'm pretty certain people don't want).

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear

How unfair it may sound I think the bm did nothing wrong really ok maybe it would have been kind if he replied but once you can pick up someone elses drops they are free for all I know this can be quite annoying if agro mobs are around as (squishie) ranged class

But in the end yeah if I see someone killing stuff without bothering to pick up drops i see them as free for all and I would pick up those drops without even bothering to pm them if they dont like it they can always pm me to stop and I will stop if they do though I would reply to a hi pm to

and on the argument off no perfect english on his side I have been in factions where some members didn't speak to great english while the officers had perfect english

ps english isn't my native language so there might be a few spelling/grammatical errors in my post

Katzyn - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Normally I'm the voice of compassion in situations like these, but... we do have a drop timer for a reason. :-/

If you're high level and you encounter problems with a second or third mob before you can pick up the first one's drops, okay. But I've seen people leave tons of coins and DQs lying around, which clearly had "cooled off," and yet they still yelled at me when I took them. They would probably have disappeared anyway, had I not taken them.

So it's all relative. Like Santa said, ask the potential "thief" first.

My policy is:

• If I see one mobs' worth of drops that I could pick up, and there is a person nearby who probably has rightful claim to them, I stop near the items and watch to see if the owner claims them. If they move away, then I grab them.
• If I see LOTS of mobs' worth of drops, I pick them up, period. The rightful owner clearly does not want them.
• If someome takes one of my drops that I don't get to in time, I ask for it back. Politely.
• Conversely, if someone ever questions me for taking their drop... whether or not I return it depends on their conduct. If they're nice, they get it back. If they yell at me, I keep it - their fault for neglecting it in the first place (but again, I only pick up things I'm pretty certain people don't want).

Yup, this is how I feel, too. Exactly.

I do wonder if he just couldn't see the whisper? Or PM? I have no idea. I've had people completely not respond to me, in similar situations, and I can't tell it they're just outright ignoring, or just didn't see it because of their chat settings.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

See.... well I don't know. I'm a little 50/50 on this one.

If you don't pick up your drops - regardless of if you're still there or not - other people will. It is a surprisingly good way to get coin provided you stick to it and pick up drops you find, drops you earn by killing your own mobs or drops you pick up while in squad. The fact you were there changes nothing because you weren't picking up your drops. If there's a numerous amount of coinage there, of course people are going to pick it up. Hell, I would too. No point letting that coin go to waste when it eventually adds up to something.

Not responding to you... well you could call it rude. If I had been that person, then sure I would have PM'd back, but not everybody responds to random PMs. Some people ignore them, and in fact some people ignore the chat box entirely. I won't say it isn't rude, but I won't say that it's necessarily something to cry about either.

And frankly, as nice as your intentions were... messaging an officer of that faction is taking things to the extreme. I recognise you were only trying to be pleasant, but I mean, seriously? I run my own small faction of friends and I'm afraid to see if somebody PM'd me about the above situation... I'd just laugh. There's really no need to PM an officer of his faction because he's taking drops you neglected to pick up and didn't respond to you when you said hello. That really is taking it one step too far.

If he picks up your drops, well you left them. If he doesn't respond to you, well he's either not reading the chat or he's an **** or he assumes you're about to ***** at him for taking drops you neglected. Going so far as to talk to an officer of the faction - regardless of your intentions - is quite simply laughable.

Legendadry - Harshlands

lol tahts what u get for being on a PvE server. on HL you just kill the dude b:sin

Abominus - Sanctuary

But again, the issue wasn't the drops. I was not saying he was wrong for taking them. What I was saying that it was borderline rude to do so without saying anything. I thought that perhaps his chat settings may have prevented him from seeing my initial "Hello". Which is why I PMed him a second "hello", which I know was seen. He simply ignored me on purpose. If I were on his blacklist or something (and I can't imagine why I would be, as today was my first ever encounter with him), and I tried to PM him it would have told me he was offline.

However, fair enough. From this point forward I won't expect anyone else to be polite, nor will I attempt to do anyone a favor by pointing it out. I suppose the only thing people respect is when people do impose themselves on others. Thank you all for making me see the error of my ways. The next person that does something like that, in a similar situation, it's on. After all, I have the "right" to KS and PK. If that's all that's understood and respected, so be it.

RainbowVidel - Sanctuary

Abominus - Sanctuary wrote: »

<wall of text>

If you left behind drops you didn't need or want, why does it matter if someone else picked them up? If something drops that you do want, pick it up right away. Only takes a second or two, depending on the amount of drops. I do it all the time... why can't you?

About him not saying anything, either English is not his primary language and didn't understand you or had the chat turned off.

Katzyn - Sanctuary

I don't see how you can ssume he ignored you. When I'm not expecting a PM or a squad invite, or an invitation to trade, I often miss that silly little buttom that pops up. And I play music while playing PWI, so...I almost never hear the little noise that chimes. Gosh, I must seem like quite the b*tch to my friends...

Yes, maybe the guy was being a jerk, or maybe he assumed you were going to b*tch at him, like Airyll suggested.

Oh my, pity party for those who get disagreed with.

Abominus - Sanctuary

Rainbow, I considered that, which is why I spoke with the faction officer. If he did not speak English, the officer could have relayed to him.

What Airyll doesn't understand, and what I suspect the officer didn't understand was that I wasn't complaining about the drops. I wasn't "telling on" the BM. I've seen entire factions get griefed over something as tiny and as stupid as what happened, when it's done to petty people.

But again, going forward I won't make any sort of attempts at civility and trying to make the game more enjoyable for everyone by promoting politeness. My mistake.

Danikovich - Heavens Tear

Seems the OP is rather naive. He went to the trouble of trying to talk to someone who got his drops (which he doesnt care, just wanted to be recognized for whatever reasons) and talk to their Officer and now ranting at the forums.

OP if you were like this person and got someone else's drops (which you were not allowed to) and this person talks to you, what are you gonna say? Hi, fine day huh? Sorry but that doesnt cut it. Some people might do wrong but they are also shameful. Not everyone of course. Of course he might not be ashamed either way, he doesnt care, looking at your level you should know, etiquette or not, you have lots of time to pick up your drops, most other players understand that and don't need to talk to you to get what's in the ground, if it's there, you don't want it or can't grab them, so let's not waste these jewels.

"Finders keepers." - common sense

Not being rude just being blunt.

//arijuana - Sanctuary11

I try and get as many drops from others as possible. There is a timer for a reason, and ample time to aquire whatever dropped.

I dont ask permission, ever. But I also wouldn't PM someone else on the rare occasion that they get one of mine. I just say to myself, "Good for you."

Now, stealing kills or muscling in on their turf that they are obviously grinding in is another matter altogether, to which I adhere to first-there policy.

XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary

scavengers are funny.. like pw bums.
I love the ones that sit and wait at your drop just seconds after you had killed the mob. Iv seen people do this alot.
I was aoeing grinding one day had a few mobs.. a couple died from the aoe and i was still fighting a few more. When someone came and just stood at my drops waiting for the timer to be up. So as they stood there at the pile of drops, i finally finished off my last mobs. Walked over to the pile where the bum was standing. picked up every drop because the timer was not up yet and said.. "not today scumbag." Then went off to kill some more mobs. b:victory

Abominus - Sanctuary

Point well taken, Danikovich.

I rescind all previous presuppositions.

But for clarification, I did not want to be "recognized" for the drops. I am not "ranting" on the forums. I was simply saying hello, and on the off chance that he was not aware that taking drops from some people could cause him trouble down the line, I was attempting to make him aware for his own good.

But in doing so I'm "laughable", "naive", and I'm the one in the wrong. Again, and for the final time, in the future, I'll leave people to their devices. Thank you all fr your responses.

Katzyn - Sanctuary

Abominus, nobody EVER critisized you for being civil and trying to talk to the guy, so I'm not sure why you're suddenly being emo and saying you'll stop being civil. That strikes as childish to me, and extremely unendearing.

You came here to complain that the guy was rude, that he didn't respond to you, and that the officer misunderstood your intentions (hey, by the way, that happens to the best of us). You were very judgemental about the guy who didn't respond. We simply are telling you that you may be wrong in your judgement, and gave you reasons for why he may not have responded. Most nice people would say, "or, maybe you're right", and leave it at that.

Moral of the thread - don't leave your drops laying around. Then you won't have to try to contact someone who may or may not answer back, and there won't be any warranted or non-warranted hard feelings.

Maragon - Dreamweaver

Abominus - Sanctuary wrote: »

And under your rule, Maragon, should the person killing the mobs say, "Hello" to you, would you say hello back, or acknowledge them in some way, shape, or form...or would you not say anything at all.

I think you probably would do the former, because you sound reasonable and like you in good faith are not trying to "steal" from someone. The only two reasons I can think of why the gentleman did not respond to me is either A)He did not speak English, or B)he felt he was probably doing something wrong and wanted to avoid me for fear of some sort of reprisal. I'm guessing it's probably B, because the faction officer spoke perfect English.

yes of course I would acknowledge them.

Didnt read the other posts before I hit reply but wanna throw this in too. Much of the time the people that do this are those that are new to the game (though yes sometimes they are just idiots). New players need to be treated nicely even when they do something real annoying like this (not saying the OP didnt this is just a side note) it will make them better players and te game more enjoyable for everyone.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

There's really no need to be like that. Yes, the guy was rude. Some people are.

Depending on exactly what you said by PM, he may have just ignored you not understanding at all. (On which, someone left an "Eff you" message in my catshop one time. To this day I don't know how I upset him by selling arrows.)

Or, yes, maybe he was just rude. No need for you to become rude.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Abominus - Sanctuary wrote: »

Rainbow, I considered that, which is why I spoke with the faction officer. If he did not speak English, the officer could have relayed to him.

What Airyll doesn't understand, and what I suspect the officer didn't understand was that I wasn't complaining about the drops. I wasn't "telling on" the BM. I've seen entire factions get griefed over something as tiny and as stupid as what happened, when it's done to petty people.

But again, going forward I won't make any sort of attempts at civility and trying to make the game more enjoyable for everyone by promoting politeness. My mistake.

Did you even read my post or shall I quote it again for you?

I understand very well that it wasn't about the drops. See here, where I said:

"And frankly, as nice as your intentions were... messaging an officer of that faction is taking things to the extreme. I recognise you were only trying to be pleasant, but I mean, seriously"

So, my friend, what you don't understand is that I understood you perfectly.

And like I have already said which you would have known if you had read my post properly is that as good as your intentions were, PMing an officer of the faction is going too far.

Since you are proving that you are not reading posts fully, I am now changing my mind about this thread and from here on out am going to assume it is a pity party. If you cannot be bothered to read through a post properly so you actually understand what is said, then I will not be bothered to bother reading your own posts fully in future and will prematurely label them. Sound like a fair deal?

Vintersun - Sanctuary

Actually I often take stuff lying around on the ground, I need money so stuff which I can sell and coins I can get for free is a great way for me to build on my savings. Sometimes I ask the person which is the rightfull owner of the drop if I can take the stuff lying around, sometimes I get a reply and sometimes not and I a player ever felt that I was stealing their stuff I would give it back since I hate stealing.

But there is a timer which gives us a fair chance to pick drops up before someone else does, maybe that timer should be a little bit longer I don't know but if one just ignores picking its drops up during that time I will see the drop as mine or the players which picks it up. But I have also noticed players which actually don't need a drop but just have to take it so that I can't get it because they would rather let it vanish then giving it away.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Normally I'm the voice of compassion in situations like these, but... we do have a drop timer for a reason. :-/

If you're high level and you encounter problems with a second or third mob before you can pick up the first one's drops, okay. But I've seen people leave tons of coins and DQs lying around, which clearly had "cooled off," and yet they still yelled at me when I took them. They would probably have disappeared anyway, had I not taken them.

The drop timer is ridiculously short (though it never seems that way in instances). It will usually expire before you finish killing the second mob. I've had someone swoop down and loot my first kill while I was spam-healing my pet against the two extra mobs which aggroed onto it.

I think a better indicator for "free" loot is the little sparkles above the coins. They disappear after a while (several minutes I think), but well before the loot will rot. If I see a bunch of coin and loot lying around without the sparkles, I grab it, no questions asked. But with sparkles and someone nearby killing stuff, I leave it.

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The drop timer is ridiculously short (though it never seems that way in instances). It will usually expire before you finish killing the second mob. I've had someone swoop down and loot my first kill while I was spam-healing my pet against the two extra mobs which aggroed onto it.

I think a better indicator for "free" loot is the little sparkles above the coins. They disappear after a while (several minutes I think), but well before the loot will rot. If I see a bunch of coin and loot lying around without the sparkles, I grab it, no questions asked. But with sparkles and someone nearby killing stuff, I leave it.

I never noticed that. =O

*Goes to stare at shiny things until they become not-so-shiny*

Katzyn - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think a better indicator for "free" loot is the little sparkles above the coins. They disappear after a while (several minutes I think), but well before the loot will rot. If I see a bunch of coin and loot lying around without the sparkles, I grab it, no questions asked. But with sparkles and someone nearby killing stuff, I leave it.

Oh, huh...I always thought the big sparklies went away when the timer was over...But I never stared at them to find this out for sure, since I always pick up my loot promptly.

Lazyluna - Heavens Tear

I always ask if the player's still there. But if they run away and abandon it then it's mine to "adopt". lol. I luffle all who leave me glittering presents on the ground. b:pleased

You weren't picking them up. That gives off the assumption that you don't want them. Yeah, he probably should've checked. I know I would've, especially if you were KILLING things instead of just meditating right next to the drops. I'm a bit surprised he was a BM. But I guess it makes sense, BMs aren't squishy. If it were a cleric, archer or wiz I'd be in shock. Nothing quite like having a respawn on top of your drops before you can get to them. So you go about killing the bugger only to have some jerkwad veno pop out of nowhere and run away with your stuff. b:angry

I'd gladly give back something that I shouldn't have taken. Stealing is stealing.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Someone who truly did take the high road would have just shrugged and continued on. They are doing a good enough deed allowing the person to get some benefit from things they obviously didn't want. Action alone should be enough for rational people that agreeing to do what is already being done is kinda redundantly pointless.

Posting about it and contacting officers means someone is pretty far from the high road in this case. We get it isn't about the drops, but about the principle that they didn't acknowledge you. But in the other point of view, so? I can't imagine being ready to throw something away, someone asking to have it, but you won't give it to them until they say please. When I leave things on the ground, it doesn't even occur to me to complain when people scavenge it, and I'm not a people person. When sociopaths become nicer than helpful people, there is something wrong with the definition of helpful.

Saitada - Sanctuary

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

etiquette doesnt exist. the sheep here like to '+1' the morally bankrupt and the bullies of the forum, even when these same 'pro trolls' insult them daily as well. their minds act like a cohesive unit of sheep who care for nothing but their own little pleasure. expect kindness from no one in this monument to ignorance.

And some people here (you) just like to cry because they had their own words shoved down their throats when they tried to attack someone (me).

You don't even have the good grace to admit you were wrong in the first place. Instead you run all over the forums making these veiled comments. Thinking you are being sly. Thinking that nobody will know you are talking to and about me. Well guess what cupcake....

Everybody knows you for the fool you are.

Everybody knows I shoved your own words so far down your throat you gagged on them.

I challenged you to prove your allegations against me, that I had EVER said I was a girl in RL (contrary to my very early posts where I stated clearly I am a guy) and you couldn't. You had to fall back on the lame statement "It was an in game conversation". When you and I have never spoken in game. EVER.

Everybody knows you tried to defame me by only quoting a portion of my words (about frapsing the game and saving the pertinent parts to my backup drives after reviewing them, and then deleting the rest... contrary to your claims that I said I saved everything) to attempt to make your point, and to make me out to be a liar but when I countered with my entire post and showed that nothing I said then, was any different than what I say now, you got butt hurt and decided to start attacking me on the forums in the semi-veiled manner you are above.

You are a sad, pathetic little waste of breath. And I personally think you should stop breathing.


Now then, on to the actual topic of this thread....

The loot timer in this game could be extended a little bit. I would actually have to agree that it is too short. But currently, if the timer has expired, loot is fair game. While the individual did nothing actually wrong. I agree that it would have been 'polite' to ask if he/she could have them if you didn't want them, but that courtesy isn't required.

~Saitada