Why is gold at 600k ?
Comments
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Honestly i believe the price of gold will never go down on populated servers. The more people buy it the higher they will sell it at. The less people who buy it they will sell it at a higher price to make up for the loss of people not buying it. You may find those one or two people selling it below 300k but you will never get anything from them because its already sold. Soon enough the gold in this game will be bought with real cash and this will boost pwi's profits."I am not a slave, i am not a personal medical pack, i am a cleric and if your death means the survival of the entire squad than i will see you in hell."0
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Saikria - Lost City wrote: »Honestly i believe the price of gold will never go down on populated servers. The more people buy it the higher they will sell it at. The less people who buy it they will sell it at a higher price to make up for the loss of people not buying it. You may find those one or two people selling it below 300k but you will never get anything from them because its already sold. Soon enough the gold in this game will be bought with real cash and this will boost pwi's profits.
To summarize this, player greed is so epicly high that prices will never go down. Hence, greed must be bannable to keep prices low so people can actually enjoy playing the game again.
However high gold prices are not in PWE's best interest. People won't start buying zen with real money, they'll just find another game.b:byeMain characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Look ayone saying it is player greed is obviously ignorant of economics. Demand is high because of the event, after the event demand will drop and so will gold prices. I guarentee this. However the long term trend is a rise in gold prices. This long term trend is 100% because of inflation.
Supply, demand, and inflation. Player greed has nothing to do with it.
Gold prices on LC were at 180k right before anniversary event. Right after the event it dropped to 300k and stedily rose to 360k. This was because oracles and perfect tokens were injecting so much coin into the game (most likely doubling) that the vaue of coins dropped.
The return of the event is going to cause the same thing to happen. JJ, long term is going to have a stalling effect but the release of the next patch and the new classes is going to cause a steady rise in gold prices due to tokens being converted to oracles.0 -
Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »Player greed, end of topic.Xvermillionx - Dreamweaver wrote: »agreed, damn greedy peopleb:angry
Absolutely! Darn those greedy players who see that the aniversary packs (or new fashion or whatever) are worth more to them than 5-600K coins and are trying to get that extra value by buying gold. And, darn those greedy players who are continuing to supply the market with gold just because they think there is something useful they could do for themselves with coins. And, most of all, darn those players who are so greedy that they think everyone else should ignore basic tenets of supply and demand just so they can get just as much gold for the same coins as they ever did even though the gold is currently worth a lot more.
EDIT:Nelanther - Lost City wrote: »Supply, demand, and inflation. Player greed has nothing to do with it.
Well, technically, greed is just another label for self-interest which has everything to do with making an economy function smoothly, but your point is correct that we should not call this bad.
"Greed" = You acting in your self interest and not mine.
How much more "greedy" can you get than that?"?" IS my avatar.0 -
I was thinking "greed" as in people wanting to be rich at the expense of everyone else. As if some players are purposly keeping gold out of reach. Anyone who gets their money from grinding is going to feel the effects of this "greed" because they dont understand how some people have so much money.
The more disconnected a players income is from wise investments the more they are going to feel the effects of this bad economy. Thoes of you who are upset at "greedy players" are right to be upset, but you are directing your anger at the wrong people.
This divide between rich and poor is the fault of two people, thoes responsible for inflation and thoes responsible for poor invesments (the poor people). Coin value will likely always drop and what you do to keep up with this effect is very important going into the future.
Grinding wont cut it anymore. There is alot of coin in this market, go out there and get your piece of it, cause the days of 100k gold are long over.0 -
Since everything in the CS is a luxary item not needed to play this game, gold prices are really irrelevant.
The point I think some people are missing is that gold prices are not high just because people are greedy, they are actualy high because people are lazy and vain. They rather spend some coin to get a charm, than to spend the time farming the herbs they need to make apoc pots so they would not need the charm in the first place. This same thing can be seen with any other optional item in CS, even the AnyPacks.
They also want to "look cool" wearing fashion and "cool looking" mounts, etc. The all "status symbol" that people keep bringing up, and having the newest mount/wings/fashion.
So it is not as simple as, ban the greedy players, since that would still leave all the lazy ones, which would still cause the price of gold to go sky high.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »Since everything in the CS is a luxary item not needed to play this game, gold prices are really irrelevant.
The point I think some people are missing is that gold prices are not high just because people are greedy, they are actualy high because people are lazy and vain. They rather spend some coin to get a charm, than to spend the time farming the herbs they need to make apoc pots so they would not need the charm in the first place. This same thing can be seen with any other optional item in CS, even the AnyPacks.
They also want to "look cool" wearing fashion and "cool looking" mounts, etc. The all "status symbol" that people keep bringing up, and having the newest mount/wings/fashion.
So it is not as simple as, ban the greedy players, since that would still leave all the lazy ones, which would still cause the price of gold to go sky high.
gtfo already..
a apothecary pot has a 2 minute cool down..
a charm has a 10 second cooldown..
seriously that is not substitute by a long shot.
lazy and vain? who are you to say that. i think you talk out of your **** sometimes. Do you even PVP?
last time i checked, PVP was the reason these games exist.Q - How to win on Perfect World?
A - Throw money at it.0 -
XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary wrote: »gtfo already..
a apothecary pot has a 2 minute cool down..
a charm has a 10 second cooldown..
seriously that is not substitute by a long shot.
lazy and vain? who are you to say that. i think you talk out of your **** sometimes. Do you even PVP?
last time i checked, PVP was the reason these games exist.
Yes, you are right, that is why we have 3 PVE servers and 2 PVP servers. Also, you do not need the charms to PVP, last time I checked you could still turn pvp on (since you are in on a PVE server) and it will not say "cannot enable pvp mode since you are not wearing a charm".
So yes, it is about lazy and vain. If you want to be able to brag that you are the best pvper (vanity), you will be using CS items to give you an edge. To say you cannot PVP without cash shop is insane.... you will take chances with your gear and you will be at a disavantage over other poeple that spend money, but you cannot honestly say that you cannot do it.
Apoc pots have longer cooldowns, however, they will stack with regular pots and genie skills, so you DO NOT NEED a charm. Does the charm make it much, much easier? Yes, it does (lazy part... things are easier), do you need one? NO. There are quite a few barbs and clerics that can do their jobs without a charm.. and that includes running BBs... Requires coordination and planning, but they seem to be able to play without having to use charms..
CS items are not needed to play, they, however, make life much easier. So lets not confuse need, and wanting things easier.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »Since everything in the CS is a luxary item not needed to play this game, gold prices are really irrelevant.
The point I think some people are missing is that gold prices are not high just because people are greedy, they are actualy high because people are lazy and vain. They rather spend some coin to get a charm, than to spend the time farming the herbs they need to make apoc pots so they would not need the charm in the first place. This same thing can be seen with any other optional item in CS, even the AnyPacks.
They also want to "look cool" wearing fashion and "cool looking" mounts, etc. The all "status symbol" that people keep bringing up, and having the newest mount/wings/fashion.
So it is not as simple as, ban the greedy players, since that would still leave all the lazy ones, which would still cause the price of gold to go sky high.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thank you Forsakenx for the picture. b:thanks0 -
AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »You mean....The 3 m/s gryphon is no different than my .5 m/s wave pacer,except that it looks cooler?Oh wait, you mean that its just because people are lazy that they need a gryphon. But I thought charms ticked automatically and herbs didn't?
Yes, the 0.5 pacers lets you fly. So it is a little slower.. you can still accelerate it if you are in a hurry and gets you from point A to point B. The thing is you do not need a griffen to fly, you just want something cooler looking and faster. Need is not the same as want.
Is your 3m/s griffin that costed 50gold to buy and max any better than the spotted manta that only takes 27gold to buy and max and has same speed? How come one costs almost twice as much as the other when both offer the same functionality?
Charm ticking automaticaly is a function of you NOT WANTING to have to manage your HP. Convinience is not NEED, is a WANT. There is no reason why you could not have used a pot or two instead, or a genie skill, or personal skill. Some pots will recouver up to 6000 HP with a long cooldown, and you can always stack that with a level 70 pot for a quick boost as well, there are also pots that recouver 60% hp instantaniously, etc. On top of that, if you were using a healing orb, you would have an extra 50 hp/sec regain.
I am not advocating peope to not buy things from CS and just play with the in-game stuff. I am addicted to tele stones, and fashion, and I have a charm (which lasts me a very long time, since I use apoc pots as well). However, I accept the fact that I am increasing demand for gold and CS items, causing the prices to go up, because I am too lazy to walk to the teleporter or not feeling like flying across the map. I like my charm for when I am not paying attention so it keeps me alive. However, these are not things I need to play the game, this are things, due to vanity and lazyness, I want to have, to make my game play a little easier and enjoyable for me. Do I need all that stuff? NOPE. Do I want all that stuff? Heck yes, and the goldfish mount, when it comes out. Will I still buy them even if gold is high? You bet, maybe I will have to grind more than before, but it will not stop me from buying the CS items I WANT, even though I really do not need them. ( I wish fashion would give you an advantage..... I have a closet full of it...)
NOTE - corrected the HP recouvered by the apoc pot you can get easely... the higher level ones you would need to be in a land owning faction to be able to make.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yes, the 0.5 pacers lets you fly. So it is a little slower.. you can still accelerate it if you are in a hurry and gets you from point A to point B. The thing is you do not need a griffen to fly, you just want something cooler looking and faster. Need is not the same as want.
Is your 3m/s griffin that costed 50gold to buy and max any better than the spotted manta that only takes 27gold to buy and max and has same speed? How come one costs almost twice as much as the other when both offer the same functionality?
Charm ticking automaticaly is a function of you NOT WANTING to have to manage your HP. There is no reason why you could not have used a pot or two instead, or a genie skill, or personal skill. Some pots will recouver up to 9000 HP with a long cooldown, and you can always stack that with a level 70 pot for a quick boost as well, there are also pots that recouver 60% hp instantaniously, etc. On top of that, if you were using a healing orb, you would have an extra 50 hp/sec regain.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thank you Forsakenx for the picture. b:thanks0 -
lmao... banning greedy people? then the game closes from the game not obtaining enough funds, good luck with that.
Ive learned that in EVERY single game I've been on (10+) the cash shop items will always be expensive against the game currency. It's plain logic, if new things keep coming in EVERYONE and I mean it, even the people complaining of greedy people will be pushed into it and will end buying something.
If the game currency is way lower to the cash shop currency ofcourse everyone will be against the cash shop, but look it like this, without a cash shop the game would not be free for all to play, so again, it would become a pay-to-play game, which most of the people complaining wouldn't be able to pay, and would end finding other game.
If you're upset about the gold items, etc., simply ignore it and don't cause drama out of it, because even in real life, its like that, so pretty much, deal with it or just ignore it, not like it is necesary in this game to obtain things from cash shop, you can still make potions, etc. for free, which in my opinion are way cheaper and better than the HP/MP scrolls :P spend more time ingame, enjoy it, don't go for what is easier for you.WTB> -12% channeling BELT or RING pm me with link or mail me ingame HT server, ty.0 -
AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »To use acceleration I would need the chi stones. What happens if I have 10k hp,go down to 1 hp in 1 hit,use the pots,reach 9k hp,and then get killed? A charm could have saved me....
Than you do not know how to play the game. You can stack pots and genie skills, if you only regain to 9k, than you need to go back to level 1 and learn how to play and how to use pots and genies. You could use tree of life, than the 60% apoc pot, and if you need, a regular pot. Or a regular pot, 6k hp apoc, second wind, regular pot. And we are not even talking about skills you have to heal yourself (unless you are an archer...)
Chi stones you get from decom gear as drops, so it is plentiful.
Sorry if it sounds mean. You can always make a scenario where something will not work.. Like in getting hit by skill/regular hit from a boss, which causes the first to tick your charm, and the second to kill you, since your charm was skill recharging and you were not at full HP yet.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
If you don't use the gold trading system then gold prices are irrelevant to you. If you do use the system it is because you want CS items. If you want CS items then you should be concerned about gold prices. Gold prices are high because people want these items. If you complain about gold prices using the logic that they are high because people buy CS stuff even though they dont need it, then you are essentially complaining about yourself. If you don't need CS stuff then there is nothing to complain about.0
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AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »To use acceleration I would need the chi stones. What happens if I have 10k hp,go down to 1 hp in 1 hit,use the pots,reach 9k hp,and then get killed? A charm could have saved me....
As said above, if you get 1 hit k.o. then you did something wrong, either your stats are all messed up to full vit (which you being a barbarian don't need a lot of vit points since all the equipment is defense defense defense).
Barbarians are pretty much tanks, if you want to deal a lot of damage, play other class, because barbarian specifically, is all about defense and having a good defense being able to kill the enemy by doing damage little by little. Me as a cleric I cannot tank, but i do deal good damage + I can play a support roll in a squad.
So if you messed up your char either get something from the cash shop to restart your stats or make a new char :xWTB> -12% channeling BELT or RING pm me with link or mail me ingame HT server, ty.0 -
as a response to whoever mentioned mana charms b4
officers actually have the ability to restore full mana/hp if your fac owns the territory. so being a nef member before i quit, i maxed my mana skills, used mana shield, and made trips to town every 45 mins or so to recharge, sell stuff/hand in quests or whatever[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
Wolfteam (softynx) IGN: 547212436 (this is a fps game so in no way competes with pwi lulz)0 -
Yamiino - Heavens Tear wrote: »As said above, if you get 1 hit k.o. then you did something wrong, either your stats are all messed up to full vit (which you being a barbarian don't need a lot of vit points since all the equipment is defense defense defense).
Barbarians are pretty much tanks, if you want to deal a lot of damage, play other class, because barbarian specifically, is all about defense and having a good defense being able to kill the enemy by doing damage little by little. Me as a cleric I cannot tank, but i do deal good damage + I can play a support roll in a squad.
So if you messed up your char either get something from the cash shop to restart your stats or make a new char :x[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thank you Forsakenx for the picture. b:thanks0 -
Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »Common sense. Anni packs ending soon. pple are getting desperate.
Yup, so desperate that people even go as low to try and make a profit selling "temporary" pirate costumes that everyone get for free. Each and every catshop I see with some temp "6 days left" outfit makes me laugh. But if thats what they need to make money then so be it. Id just recommend they find out where the real money is at and leave the low blows alone. lol0 -
I was thinking more along the lines of someone wanting to keep gold prices high as stated earlier in the forums. The higher the are the more desperate players become. Til they can find gold cheaper by using other methods outside the game. Even us cash shoppers don't want to see gold inflate too high. If it never balances and continues to rise many of us take a huge loss.
As for the poorer players causing inflation. I think for this it is wrong. For one a poorer player is going to shop and get more for his coin. He/she can only afford certain things and mainly only spend on necessity. They create the larger coin sink. By the way all of us where poor players, because it takes a while to accumulate so much coin. So most of these poor players are new to the game. Doesn't matter if they invest those coins wisely or not, they all start off poor. Those that do invest please remember we played during a time when things like dq items, tt items, rare pets, etc. had a value. New players come into the game and are finding it hard because many of thing things that you had to work for in game have now become worthless since you can buy them from the cash shop. Or yet have become very hard to obtain.
For those of us who play this game longer we have higher amount of coins to spend. These are the ones that create the inflation. Someone who has 70mil in coin is going to spend more loosely than someone with just a mil. This person can afford a 2mil charm. Where as the lower player says i'm going to have to buy more pots. Is that greed, no. Why because the game is actually designed for this. Why else would they have it where you could buy gold in the auction house. People wouldn't buy zen if it was so easy to obtain items with regular in game coin. What about cash shop stuff. Fewer people will cash shop if they can obtain gold for a cheap price. And fewer people want to sell gold because of the cheap gold.
Some people can make money rather fast, because they are good at economics. Eventually, the more coin introduced into the game the more inflation will spiral out of control and soon 70mil in dollars will feel like you only have 1 dollar. So the richer should be careful about throwing around their money. However it is not entirely any of the players fault either. You see even in our government we have regulations to help keep inflation under control. So pwi must fund a way to make a coin sink to keep our inflation under control. Problems is now they have players with a ridiculous amount of coin. I'm sure they'll figure something out though.
As said before though, and I agree with this. Everything in the cash shop is a luxury. You don't need it to play the game, or enjoy it. You might take longer to get what you want, however you can still obtain it through free methods. I believe it isn't about greed alone, but more about popularity. Who has the rarest mount, or the uberest gear. Or the most coin. Really i think this game has become a battle of the epens.0 -
Interestingly enough, it seems the 600k gold prices were just a temporary spike created either intentionally or just by someone mass-buying packs at last minute. Prices on sanc just hit below the 500k mark and anniversary packs aren't even selling at 490k.
Guess jones is actually doing some good.0 -
If you are referring to my post, I don't say that poor people are causing inflation, I am saying poor people are themselves partial responsible in the gap between rich and poor. If everyone always made the correct financial move the gap would remain small (despite inflation) because the markets would be fiercely competitive.
People with less money will need to spend the majority of their money on survival. And if grinding is your only source of income, you wont have anything to invest. You become stuck at the same 100-200k per hour income while investors pass you by as their income grows alongside inflation.
If coin value drops in half, you need to double your coin to retain the same worth.
300m coins back in August will be the same as 800m coins in November.
I don't like that one bit.0 -
Nelanther - Lost City wrote: »If you are referring to my post, I don't say that poor people are causing inflation, I am saying poor people are themselves partial responsible in the gap between rich and poor. If everyone always made the correct financial move the gap would remain small (despite inflation) because the markets would be fiercely competitive.
People with less money will need to spend the majority of their money on survival. And if grinding is your only source of income, you wont have anything to invest. You become stuck at the same 100-200k per hour income while investors pass you by as their income grows alongside inflation.
If coin value drops in half, you need to double your coin to retain the same worth.
300m coins back in August will be the same as 800m coins in November.
I don't like that one bit.
A simple solution for being less poor... Take your time to complete your grinding with harvesting. Sell your mats to good purchase shops (always look for the best deal) or go merchanting (though it can be quite a bet, idling in one place all day while you could play more... will people sell you mats and will you be able to resell them for more?), don't do Dragon Quest and sell all the DQs you find.
As for items/gears/boutique items, browse well and only buy things you will need always. Extremely rare great deals on decent aerogears are the prime example of it. Just don't purchase on impulse. ^^
That said, all of my characters keep saving, and I try to compensate on all of my purchases... I'm basically a coin sink waiting for better days. *laughs*Maintenance time. Please choose a line:
- When is it over? OMG I need my fix!! *super spazzing*
- Fix the damn bugs, dammit! I'm so angry! I'll quit!!
- New codes out there? I like free stuff~ *wink*
- When will we get new content? QQ
- Will we get sales? I got a ton of gold to spend.
- I'm bored, I'll create a useless thread to annoy Opkorock.
- *Incessant poking on Sweetiebot* Fun~0 -
Lesthar - Heavens Tear wrote: »A simple solution for being less poor... Take your time to complete your grinding with harvesting. Sell your mats to good purchase shops (always look for the best deal) or go merchanting (though it can be quite a bet, idling in one place all day while you could play more... will people sell you mats and will you be able to resell them for more?), don't do Dragon Quest and sell all the DQs you find.
As for items/gears/boutique items, browse well and only buy things you will need always. Extremely rare great deals on decent aerogears are the prime example of it. Just don't purchase on impulse. ^^
That said, all of my characters keep saving, and I try to compensate on all of my purchases... I'm basically a coin sink waiting for better days. *laughs*[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thank you Forsakenx for the picture. b:thanks0 -
Yes, I wasn't going to say anything. While it is a good idea to save money, and maximize your profits while grinding/harvesting, it doesn't address the core problem of keeping up with inflation. The way you keep up with inflation is to have your money invested in items that follow inflation.
For example...
150k coins before inflation is 150k coins after inflation but a Giant Apes Skin is 150k before inflation and 300k after inflation (numbers may vary).
If you had 150k coins just sitting in your bank, it will not increase in value. However invested in a Giant Apes Skin that 150k coins will become 300k coins.
In this example the investor didn't really make 150k coins, you simply kept up with inflation. The person who kept the coins didn't break even, he lost 150k without realizing it.0 -
Nelanther - Lost City wrote: »Yes, I wasn't going to say anything. While it is a good idea to save money, and maximize your profits while grinding/harvesting, it doesn't address the core problem of keeping up with inflation. The way you keep up with inflation is to have your money invested in items that follow inflation.
For example...
150k coins before inflation is 150k coins after inflation but a Giant Apes Skin is 150k before inflation and 300k after inflation (numbers may vary).
If you had 150k coins just sitting in your bank, it will not increase in value. However invested in a Giant Apes Skin that 150k coins will become 300k coins.
In this example the investor didn't really make 150k coins, you simply kept up with inflation. The person who kept the coins didn't break even, he lost 150k without realizing it.
This I agree with too. Which was i said i hate to see gold reach to high. It also creates a frustration to newer players because they will feel forced to cash shop, or feel the things the want are unattainable.
However I said this before a while back around october you will see prices continue to rise. I do not think coins will drop much in value, actually for all servers pretty soon you'll start to see 1 gold= 800k to 1mil coin probably around christmas. Although Jolly Jones creates a coin sink now you have to remember that others invest 100k into his wares will later make three times their profit through the items they get.
People who farm do need to invest their wares wisely as well. Many people still are selling according to old prices, not calculating according to the gold prices in the auction house. For example hay last time i checked was around 7k to 9k. It's been like that since gold was 100k. Although there is no gold value for it the price value should have increased because you use your labor to obtain it. Same with matts. These actually do have a gold value but you will see matts sell pretty cheaply. So farming is a good idea, but only if you turn it into a wiser investment and follow the gold market. Everyone would have to do that.
Marketing is nice too but it's a lot like gambling. With the market constantly switching prices around now it's unstable, and could cost you in the long run. Marketing works if prices drop down and you buy and then prices rise up and you sell. However with gold on constant rise. It would be wiser to keep your gold til the market is more stable.0 -
I completely agree on the last posts:
- AlbieroTwo, merchanting/marketing is nice if you are not the field-type gamer, or let the computer running for hours/days while you are away. I prefer being active, myself.
- Nelanther, it would be nice to invest in items, but as Aoe mentioned, it is quite a gamble... What if the item you bought lost value instead of increasing? What if it is not in demand anymore? Plus the item would take some precious space. But yes, I suppose you are right... But you don't gain more, it is about losing the possibility to make more money, you don't lose money per say.
- Aoe, so you noticed that too? It is better for me that some materials have increased in value, mostly low mats (concentrated glue, purified oil, silk thread) and high mats (lumber, charcoal, etc.), as I am the lowest in the chain. Going for low herbs is also very good.
But I have disgressed too much, going from 'Crazy gold rate and its aftermath' to 'How to make good money, by Lesthar'... That said, if you want to make more coins to buy gold, I hope my advice is useful.
Oh and trying to compensate on any expenses is great too. This is why I never went broke.
*Leaves the stand for now*Maintenance time. Please choose a line:
- When is it over? OMG I need my fix!! *super spazzing*
- Fix the damn bugs, dammit! I'm so angry! I'll quit!!
- New codes out there? I like free stuff~ *wink*
- When will we get new content? QQ
- Will we get sales? I got a ton of gold to spend.
- I'm bored, I'll create a useless thread to annoy Opkorock.
- *Incessant poking on Sweetiebot* Fun~0 -
CALM DOWN. The GMs are carefully monitoring the in-game economy ......................... right? .............0
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