Another gold thread but...

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

No, its not another QQ-Thread about current gold prices...

I know as well about 5k of milllions threads about this topic, but its not a thread about Jolly Jones, expensive charms and current gold price of 450k at Auctioneer.
Yes, we all know that economy fails at the moment and we have no power/will to change it. As well most of us know that gold prices wont go down anymore (like me) because there are always rich players who can afford this price and willing to buy gold for it as well.
We have actualy two social classes now. The one is rich and is getting richer, the other one is poor and getting poorer. Its in RL a common economy failer so its a fact for ME that PWI-economy collapsed already and 80% still didn't realise it yet. I don't pay attention to gold price anymore but after reading one thread, i got curious.
Someone mentioned a solution to increase mats and coin drops in game and most of people did agree with it. I'm wondering if its realy a good idea and not just a fast and short solution for current market.

PWI did try to increase coins in game with Jones and Coin Boxes, hoping to increase the coin flow in game would help players to get more cash. Well, as we can see it didnt work at all...
Actualy the effect was (obviously), that people spent more coin that they could earn/afford and that established two social classes-system....rich and poor one. Edit: take it back. Players didnt spend more coins, they spent more GOLD. Which increased coinsflow in Game. Effect: Players with no Gold getting poor and players with Gold get reacher What i mean is NOT only between two different lvls, also between same lvls. I might be wrong as well cause i'm not poor. But i know many of my friends who are. I'm trying to support them currently but it seems like a never ending story.
Beside that 've never seen so many scammers on this game, which makes it obvious that the social alliance and community between players is at it worst. So if the crime rises, rich ppl getting richer and poor one poorer...its for me a clear fact of collapsed economy.

(Probably i'm just imagining things?)

So back to my curiousity. After reading few topics about solutions i was wondering why noone mentioned another method then increase coins and drops drom quests and mobs.

QUESTION:
If PWI increase coins in game wouldn't the gold price rise as well?

EFFECT?:
We have more to spend and can afford to buy gold for 450k?

But isn't it that only temporary? The gold price would defently go up again, after seller realises that he can sell more. Can we trust seller not to rise gold price (which is obvious a NO)?
I came to conclusion that the only way to make us all happy (well most of us) is to make us all equal to eachother. Since we can't be all rich...we get all poor.

So i thought of more drastic method, which is probably not the best solution but at least worth to engross the thoughts.

What if PWI DECREASES the coins amount in game?!?

EFFECT?:
We ALL (rich and poor) start to save money and spend only on nessacery items.
Either we realise it or not at the beginning..we will FEEL the effect at least after some timebeeing and stop buying gold --> gold and item prices start to sink?

I know very well that a lot of QQ would start again and i realise as well that some rich b***** (like myself) would snap..but hey isnt it that what we want? As well since we cant manage the economy by ourselve, its a drastic way for all players.
But then this effect will last LONGER and establish a fair economy to each lvl(?).

AM I WRONG? b:bye

PS: And I'm applogize for my english and my typos lol. Not my motherlanguage b:surrender


EDIT:
What about to set boundries to coins=zen? To make one final price and no bids anymore? Either they buy it or sell it, its for everyone same. Set more rare pets, mounts etc. in game BUT ONLY IN GAME and not for ZEN-buyers. Players always wants to have the best rare thing etc. Why not use this method to decrease coins? In RL the cash is always flowing SOMEWHERE or to SOMEONE. Since we cant get real cash back from coins we earn in game...PWI should use a method to attract player to use COINS and not GOLD?

Reivi - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is only one solution to stabilize the economy
- Stop boursicotage.
Only the zenners should be able to sell their golds.. and the buyers shouldnt be able to resell them.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

PWI have stated that this is the approach they are trying to take.

They're also, pretty obviously, not having much success at it. As you point out, some people have literally billions of coins.

It would take a long time for those to drain out, even if no monster ever dropped anything ever again. (Which would, of course, destroy the game in the meantime)

Jolly Jones pretty much opened the gates - those rich accounts which had previously only been opening the vaults to buy the occasional rare mount, suddenly flooded the main economy.


As the real world is showing - balancing an economy is HARD. Your best bet, probably, would be to just give up on keeping the brakes on inflation, and tie *everything* in game to the current value of gold. NPC buy and sell prices, mob drops - everything.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

O.o...realy. I didnt know they were trying lol. I didnt pay attention to this one at all. But then why releasing new mounts and do new events, so people buy more stuff with real cash? With that it increased coins flow in game.

I know it would take a lot of time, but then the other way (increase drops and coins) would last only for a short timebeeing. To exchange coins for items isnt working that well anymore (for balance: coins flow to zen exchange).
So particulary we have to get rid of coins and rich ppl :P. Place fee higher for them in AH? Decrease coins drop at higher lvl? Some of them do have billions of coins probably :P On my server i saw players lvl90+ buying gold for 420k and selling it again for 500k+. With adding +80k each gold they bought tokens from packs. They sell perfect tokens for 16k (450k for one gold -> one pack -> best token -> -4,5mil to get second one -->two of them=10mil! <----so actualy increasing amount of coins again).

What about to set boundries to coins=zen? To make one final price and no bids anymore? Either they buy it or sell it, its for everyone same. Set more rare pets, mounts etc. in game BUT ONLY IN GAME and not for ZEN-buyers. Players always wants to have the best rare thing etc. Why not use this method to decrease coins? In RL the cash is always flowing SOMEWHERE or to SOMEONE. Since we cant get real cash back from coins we earn in game...PWI should use a method to attract player to use COINS and not GOLD?

Ursa - Dreamweaver

lool, I don't want to repead this ever and ever and forever. Read it, understand it and live with it.

1. PWI has to make money out of this game.
2. Players that charge a lot of zen are happy with high gold prices
3. read again point 1 and 2 until u get the connection
4. they dont' give a sh!tty **** about ingame economy as long as the 1. and 2. are covered and every1 included there is happy.

Why do you think they pushed events like mad 2 months ago? why do you think they pushed the gold to 200k initially (with the cube reward chest) and 400-500 with the aniversary event? maximize their profit margin. Yeah, some players that knew the game and were sitting on a pile of cash before this event have now even more. Fair? yes. Funny? No.
PWI it's a business. PWI as a service provider has to keep his customers happy. Customers are the CS players. The rest are just ppl allowed to play so the CS won't get bored and can vent their frustration killing a lvl 30 in SP with a +10 lunar wpn. b:pleasedb:thanks

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Have jolly jones around, have him sell things similar to the anniversery packs, have the ONLY way to get them be coins, have them be high priced.

Another way would be to simply remove everyones coins.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lool, I don't want to repead this ever and ever and forever. Read it, understand it and live with it.

1. PWI has to make money out of this game.
2. Players that charge a lot of zen are happy with high gold prices
3. read again point 1 and 2 until u get the connection
4. they dont' give a sh!tty **** about ingame economy as long as the 1. and 2. are covered and every1 included there is happy.

Why do you think they pushed events like mad 2 months ago? why do you think they pushed the gold to 200k initially (with the cube reward chest) and 400-500 with the aniversary event? maximize their profit margin. Yeah, some players that knew the game and were sitting on a pile of cash before this event have now even more. Fair? yes. Funny? No.
PWI it's a business. PWI as a service provider has to keep his customers happy. Customers are the CS players. The rest are just ppl allowed to play so the CS won't get bored and can vent their frustration killing a lvl 30 in SP with a +10 lunar wpn. b:pleasedb:thanks

Ok...we are getting offensive cause i brought up this topic again?
I'm just trying to understand this economy and even tho i know, noone pays attention to this, i try to figure out how i would act as GM or DEV to establish a fair economie. I didnt say that GMs etc. are fault of this collapsed economy, i mean it generaly on games. How other MMORPG solve this problem?
I know as well that PWI is buisness so i'm trying to figure out how i would deal with it and if it would work out. This is NOT a thread to search for responsible one.

And noone asks you to repeat it again, cause actualy you didnt say much at all.

Reivi - Sanctuary

There is only one solution to stabilize the economy

- Stop boursicotage.

Only the zenners should be able to sell their golds.. and the buyers shouldnt be able to resell them.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Reivi - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is only one solution to stabilize the economy

- Stop boursicotage.

Only the zenners should be able to sell their golds.. and the buyers shouldnt be able to resell them.

o.o actualy i like this one....

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

As far as I know, no other MUD has solved the inflation problem.

Most eventually devolve to the point where twinking alts *is* the game, and - if you are lucky - the player economy takes over and just completely ignores the NPC economy.

One possible route is to permit the economy to become irrelevant in a benign way - have items which cost vast sums of cash and are, effectively, only available to a limited segment of the player base - but which don't have any impact on the actual gameplay.
Fashion items.

One other route is to embrace inflation, and simply admit "Yes, if you want to compete, you need to pay real-world cash to buy THIS months items"

Tojop - Dreamweaver

Like Zoe said....I've talked with a few people in faction about this. Anniversary packs were a fine idea, but they shouldn't have been a cash shop item. They should have been sold by an npc for 300k coins. (Feel free to discuss the price, but the point is the same).

This would have *actually* drained coins out of the economy. With chest of coins, gold price would still stay at 200k-ish, but a lot more people would be selling gold in order to get coins. At least the current nightmare would have been avoided.

Discuss.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As far as I know, no other MUD has solved the inflation problem.

Most eventually devolve to the point where twinking alts *is* the game, and - if you are lucky - the player economy takes over and just completely ignores the NPC economy.

One possible route is to permit the economy to become irrelevant in a benign way - have items which cost vast sums of cash and are, effectively, only available to a limited segment of the player base - but which don't have any impact on the actual gameplay.
Fashion items.

One other route is to embrace inflation, and simply admit "Yes, if you want to compete, you need to pay real-world cash to buy THIS months items"

yep..it can work both way! Rare Mounts and rare pets only for coins user (like before DQ-Horses) AND some events ONLY for real-cash user.

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Like Zoe said....I've talked with a few people in faction about this. Anniversary packs were a fine idea, but they shouldn't have been a cash shop item. They should have been sold by an npc for 300k coins. (Feel free to discuss the price, but the point is the same).

This would have *actually* drained coins out of the economy. With chest of coins, gold price would still stay at 200k-ish, but a lot more people would be selling gold in order to get coins. At least the current nightmare would have been avoided.

Discuss.

Like this one as well as player...but GMs wouldnt earn any cash from it (have to pay their bills as well). Goal is to set it for everyone equal (price to effort).

Danikovich - Heavens Tear

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

PWI it's a business. PWI as a service provider has to keep his customers happy. Customers are the CS players. The rest are just ppl allowed to play so the CS won't get bored and can vent their frustration killing a lvl 30 in SP with a +10 lunar wpn. b:pleasedb:thanks

Correct! Anyway, back to the topic, this sudden coin thingy is coming from the game itself. Rebirth for instance, 6 players, 1mill plus immaculate shard per head, that makes 6~12 millions in 2 hours?!?! Outrageous. Nerf the amount of coin reward maybe? A small solution of course but it will probably be worth a while after some time... *shrug*

Reivi - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is only one solution to stabilize the economy

- Stop boursicotage.

Only the zenners should be able to sell their golds.. and the buyers shouldnt be able to resell them.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

o.o actualy i like this one....

That might work.... I like it too

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Of course, the other side of this is:

Those high end players, played for ages? They're your main constituency and you DO need to keep them somewhat happy in order to keep people coming in.

Look at the thread "Point of frost is to pay 500k?" as an example of how easy they are to annoy. So you need rewards for those who already have rewards... and up spirals the mudlfation.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

I'm a Cash Shopper, and IMHO its the players that spike the gold price. If people are willing to pay it, the prices will continue to rise until the point it reaches were people decide not to buy. I have consistently put my gold at higher prices to see if people will buy it. If they do I put it in for higher.

My RL cash is as hard earned as anything in game, and its my choice to do with it as I wish to. It would be bad business if the GMs interferred and now said "Okay your dollar is now only worth 100k in game coins! The whole POINT of a Free Economy is to allow the players that DO buy to set teh standard. Things are ONLY worth what people will pay for them. The GMs/Devs have very little influence on the gold prices. Its all set by players. The only thing they do is release stuff that cash shoppers want to increase their profits. Its what we choose to do with those items that makes the problem.

However, I am getting really tired of people saying that my purchasing gold and using it to advance myself in teh game, to keep up with others who can spend hours and hours grinding and leveling, is "not fair" "Easy" and "wrong." My RL money is HARD EARNED. Its not like I am cheating the game. I just work full time and would like to have some sort of edge to my game play.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm a Cash Shopper, and IMHO its the players that spike the gold price. If people are willing to pay it, the prices will continue to rise until the point it reaches were people decide not to buy. I have consistently put my gold at higher prices to see if people will buy it. If they do I put it in for higher.

My RL cash is as hard earned as anything in game, and its my choice to do with it as I wish to. It would be bad business if the GMs interferred and now said "Okay your dollar is now only worth 100k in game coins! The whole POINT of a Free Economy is to allow the players that DO buy to set teh standard. Things are ONLY worth what people will pay for them. The GMs/Devs have very little influence on the gold prices. Its all set by players. The only thing they do is release stuff that cash shoppers want to increase their profits. Its what we choose to do with those items that makes the problem.

However, I am getting really tired of people saying that my purchasing gold and using it to advance myself in teh game, to keep up with others who can spend hours and hours grinding and leveling, is "not fair" "Easy" and "wrong." My RL money is HARD EARNED. Its not like I am cheating the game. I just work full time and would like to have some sort of edge to my game play.

I charge Zen as well, but i dont sell my gold I work also hard and i do spend my cash as i want to. The thing is...they have influence on market cause they HAVE to. They sell mounts and items in boutique for gold, which we purchuase with real cash and coins. Only them know actualy HOW MUCH COINS are flowing in game. Yes, you are right that they are not responsible for our market situation but like a goverment in RL they are responsible that you as player can afford everything you need in this game. Since without it, this game wouldnt be fun at all. No fun no game no jobs. They are responsible for gold which is flowing as items/coins IN GAME to balance out. They have a possibilty thats all what counts.

Aquilonian - Dreamweaver

Reivi - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is only one solution to stabilize the economy

- Stop boursicotage.

Only the zenners should be able to sell their golds.. and the buyers shouldnt be able to resell them.

fuuuuuuu that made so much sense my mind just got blown! b:shocked

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Like Zoe said....I've talked with a few people in faction about this. Anniversary packs were a fine idea, but they shouldn't have been a cash shop item. They should have been sold by an npc for 300k coins. (Feel free to discuss the price, but the point is the same).

This would have *actually* drained coins out of the economy. With chest of coins, gold price would still stay at 200k-ish, but a lot more people would be selling gold in order to get coins. At least the current nightmare would have been avoided.

Discuss.

PWE still makes the same amount of money. Gold would still be purchased in order to buy coins, which would then be drained away. Wich would make coins more valuable due to their scarcity. which would lower gold prices. momentarily at least.

great Idea wow.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I charge Zen as well, but i dont sell my gold I work also hard and i do spend my cash as i want to. The thing is...they have influence on market cause they HAVE to. They sell mounts and items in boutique for gold, which we purchuase with real cash and coins. Only them know actualy HOW MUCH COINS are flowing in game. Yes, you are right that they are not responsible for our market situation but like a goverment in RL they are responsible that you as player can afford everything you need in this game. Since without it, this game wouldnt be fun at all. No fun no game no jobs. They are responsible for gold which is flowing as items/coins IN GAME to balance out. They have a possibilty thats all what counts.

This is true, but unlke the real world in game coins do not have a value. IRL Money has a Value based on our Ore resources to back up taht value. (runs away from economics lesson) an Uhm really... comparing the games economy to that of the RL world is a little rediculous. IRL I barely ake enough money to HAVE some money at the end of the month to spend in teh game.

And I sell my Gold becuase the Items I want to buy (IE my Gear, Skills, etc) arent' cash shoppable!! XD

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is true, but unlke the real world in game coins do not have a value. IRL Money has a Value based on our Ore resources to back up taht value. (runs away from economics lesson) an Uhm really... comparing the games economy to that of the RL world is a little rediculous. IRL I barely ake enough money to HAVE some money at the end of the month to spend in teh game.

And I sell my Gold becuase the Items I want to buy (IE my Gear, Skills, etc) arent' cash shoppable!! XD

Yes thats the point. In RL cash flows always to someone or something. Here is has no value yet keep keeps flowing into the game due gold-buyer. So they have to make sure that it balanced. The cash that flows in, has to flow out again. So means, they have to attract players (especialy high lvls) to spend more COINS and not gold (like rare DQ-Mounts or Gear..but still affordable and not for billions) in game.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes thats the point. In RL cash flows always to someone or something. Here is has no value yet keep keeps flowing into the game due gold-buyer. So they have to make sure that it balanced. The cash that flows in, has to flow out again. So means, they have to attract players (especialy high lvls) to spend more COINS and not gold (like rare DQ-Mounts or Gear..but still affordable and not for billions) in game.

That would help, but I think they would rather **** off all their non cash-shoppers before they go tinkering with the business side of things. I know that as a gold buyer (and a loyal one, atleast once a month of 20 bucks or more) I would be extremely upset if they made it so that I could no longer profit from selling my gold. Most of the time when I sell gold in World Chat the people that buy it always buy the same things *new items, *Charms & other consumables, & *Pet Packs. If they made soem of it abail in game that could be cool, but Mounts and Fashion is no way to make a profit with gold as Almost ALL of them lose monetary value as soon as you purchase them. Reselling them for what you paid in gold is not going to happen. Other then that I don't care what happens. As long as my way of making money doesn't go away, because I don't get the time to grind and earn the in game coin that others can.

eatwithspoons

moved to the correct section. Please try not to post duplicate topics, it is much easier to find in one unified thread

kaboro

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No, its not another QQ-Thread about current gold prices...

After reading your post i can say this is a false statement :P

Your observation of "rich getting richer and poor getting poorer" is correct but you seem to think that gold sellers are the ones getting richer and thats not true, they may sell their gold for more now, but the prices they have to pay for ingame items are higher too so no gain for them in the end.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Effect: Players with no Gold getting poor and players with Gold get richer.

Players with gold dont get richer, im a casual cash shop user and im telling you i dont get richer at all. Also its a CASH SHOP GAME after all, and the "free to play" does NOT mean you supposed to have every cash shop item you need without spending a penny in the cash shop.


I think your apocalyptic vision of the PW economy is overly dramatic and innacurate.
In my opinion the problem is due to the fact that PW economy allows players to play for free AND get the cash shop items they need by being able to buy gold with game coin.

It was obvious that sooner or later more and more players will become "rich", and even the ones that used to sell gold for coin, will eventually learn how to make the coin themselves so no need to sell gold anymore.

The natural result would be gold price increase and the players most affected by it are the casual farmers. Its sad because these players used to work the hardest for the little gold they needed.

The compulsive players in those high factions are getting richer, also the players willing to invest the time and effort to play the markets are doing very well too.
Casual cash shop users are unaffected, they dont gain and they dont lose anything.

After all is said and done, this is a normal evolution that was to be expected, the old situation could not possibly last.
I dont say this evolution is a good thing, on the contrary, but eventually things will settle down, no need for apocalyptic predictions and finger pointing, and blaming.