BM's Don't Always Need Vit

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  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Cenminator - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    i already went pure dex with my pk genie and hit a barb for 4600 with thunderstorm. there was no debuffs or amp dmgs used. it hasn't been nerfed, maybe even hits harder now

    How many DEX is that with? And that wasn't a crit?

    Hmm.... that's too bad that True Emptiness needs a VIT and STR genie... Guess I'll have 2 PvP genies. O.o
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Cenminator - Dreamweaver
    Cenminator - Dreamweaver Posts: 160 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    How many DEX is that with? And that wasn't a crit?

    Hmm.... that's too bad that True Emptiness needs a VIT and STR genie... Guess I'll have 2 PvP genies. O.o

    lvl 80 genie 90 dex not a crit
  • Legendadry - Harshlands
    Legendadry - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    caping vit really imo is a bad idea unless it's so high to where ur lacking in other areas in ur build. Your going to need pdef and health against magic users for TW. and even w/ high vit when a cleric tempest u even w/ magic marrow it hurts >.<
    I dont level Slow I just enjoy the game b:surrender
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Legendadry - Harshlands wrote: »
    caping vit really imo is a bad idea unless it's so high to where ur lacking in other areas in ur build. Your going to need pdef and health against magic users for TW. and even w/ high vit when a cleric tempest u even w/ magic marrow it hurts >.<

    Well, the idea of capping VIT is that you can buy HP (refine, shards) but can't buy STR or DEX other than bonus on gears. So in ideal condition (money wise), it's better to put the points into other areas were you can't buy. VIT barely adds to def anyways.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Legendadry - Harshlands
    Legendadry - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    it's flexible and up to the user. for instance i just raised my cap. and now adding in more str and dex. caping it forever at 50 was just an example of a bad idea. after all vit increase's ur hp regen too
    I dont level Slow I just enjoy the game b:surrender
  • bigxbear
    bigxbear Posts: 240 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Lrn2English
    Lrn2stunzb:bye


    Also I tiger leap away from heavens.     It's a bit obvious when its about to come.

    u must be pro to prove urself wrong in ur own post...Failb:bye

    also, im sure the other bm has leap back/tiger leap too
    i'm the one spinning in their chair, eating a ring-pop, wondering y the world hates broccolie so much... but loves it w/ cheese O.o... mabye we all should wear cheese to be better ppl. (Yes!!.. One more step to RUULING the worldb:thanks)
  • Filet - Heavens Tear
    Filet - Heavens Tear Posts: 414 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Cenminator - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    lvl 80 genie 90 dex not a crit

    I really doubt that it wasn't a crit. base dmg for t-storm is 750. Add on 180% damage thanks to 90 dex, that's 2100 total. Multiply that by 6 for close range and on the ground, that's 12600. The PvP damage reduction is 1/4, so that alone reduces it to 3150. That's all assuming the barb has no metal resist...
  • Filet - Heavens Tear
    Filet - Heavens Tear Posts: 414 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Legendadry - Harshlands wrote: »
    it's flexible and up to the user. for instance i just raised my cap. and now adding in more str and dex. caping it forever at 50 was just an example of a bad idea. after all vit increase's ur hp regen too

    You do realize that vit barely adds any extra p/mdef right? it's like 5 points of vit gives you 1 extra p/mdef or something. Also the extra hp regen is negligible when you're actually fighting. TT90 gear gives very good refining bonuses, my boots just refined alone count as 20 vit. That's without shards, and the hp bonuses from the boots themselves. The higher level the equip is, the more hp reach refine gives.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    bigxbear wrote: »
    u must be pro to prove urself wrong in ur own post...Failb:bye

    also, im sure the other bm has leap back/tiger leap too

    O_o I apologize, but I fail to see where I contradicted myself.
    Are you perhaps alluding that by "lrn2stunz" I was saying that you should stun someone in response to them starting their tree ultimate? Because if so, that's not the case. As a BM my stun with the highest success rate is roar, and it would take too long once I see that HF/GS/MSS is coming.

    If on the other hand you were saying one ought stun you before they use their HF/GS/MSS then yeah, I suppose they probably should if they are going that route. It would need to be with Drake Bash or Aelion Blade though(preferably Drake Bash) because Roar also suffers from a long animation sequence (One can easily jump out of the way).

    Errr... does that explain it? If not please post a reply. =/ I don't know what I said that confused you.
    Filet - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I really doubt that it wasn't a crit. base dmg for t-storm is 750. Add on 180% damage thanks to 90 dex, that's 2100 total. Multiply that by 6 for close range and on the ground, that's 12600. The PvP damage reduction is 1/4, so that alone reduces it to 3150. That's all assuming the barb has no metal resist...

    =O Maybe the barb simultaneously used perdition xD

    Also, plz don't double post o.o
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Cenminator - Dreamweaver
    Cenminator - Dreamweaver Posts: 160 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Filet - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I really doubt that it wasn't a crit. base dmg for t-storm is 750. Add on 180% damage thanks to 90 dex, that's 2100 total. Multiply that by 6 for close range and on the ground, that's 12600. The PvP damage reduction is 1/4, so that alone reduces it to 3150. That's all assuming the barb has no metal resist...

    i'm not going to waste time with the math. i saw 4632 dmg and i didn't see anywhere that said critical hit, if it was a crit it didn't show up as one
  • DeathX - Lost City
    DeathX - Lost City Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    b:shocked DID HE SAY 8 VIT HOLY SHIIT U MUST BE A BIG **** POWERHOUSE im currently 6x dex axe capped mine at 60 thinking of going 50 r 40 but yeah i can kill 7x bms and barbs its pretty fun to c thier faces
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    3 vit w/o gears here never missed it and being able to combo all weapons is pure fun

    almost up to 4k hp now (3985 actualy gear is all 3 sockets with flawless hp +2 so its quite affordable thanks to the recent shard price drop)

    vit be overatedb:cute
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    3 vit w/o gears here never missed it and being able to combo all weapons is pure fun

    almost up to 4k hp now (3985 actualy gear is all 3 sockets with flawless hp +2 so its quite affordable thanks to the recent shard price drop)

    vit be overatedb:cute

    I have 30 vit without gears. Even that though, is terribly little compared to most BM's my level. I have about 4.5k hp unbuffed, and now that I am 9x, it really hurts in PvP.

    My plan: Shard the hell out of my 9x gears (soon as I get them Q_Q) and refine them to the best of my ability. I do not want to sacrifice my damage or accuracy by restatting. I should when I am done, hopefully be looking at around 8k hp.

    Edited to correct typo
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ExoKillr - Heavens Tear
    ExoKillr - Heavens Tear Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    Mirnack - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok so for new players people will usually tell you that as a blademaster you'll need vit str and dex! This is not true. My Bm is a level 63. He has 132 dex and 199 str with 8 vit and 3 mag. And i held my own against an 8x Bm. True it's easier for Magic users to PlayerKill you But thats what sockets are for! Well hope you all have fun!

    ROFL course a lvl 63 bm can take on a 80 bm ... for a lil bit. phys att vs phys def. duh
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC].
  • ExoKillr - Heavens Tear
    ExoKillr - Heavens Tear Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    i just capped my vit at 60. and get my hp from shards and refines. i tank bh69 like ima barb easy. and if u get 90 with full immacs 4 sockets each like i have ready for me, u dont really even need vit. lol. plus if u get a vit tome.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC].
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    ExoKillr - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i just capped my vit at 60. and get my hp from shards and refines. i tank bh69 like ima barb easy. and if u get 90 with full immacs 4 sockets each like i have ready for me, u dont really even need vit. lol. plus if u get a vit tome.

    >.> Don't double post. =P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    Technically you don't "need" accuracy or str either. You could just refine the heck out of your weapon, add high level ambers and use misties/mastadon/frost and you'd probably still hit crazy amounts of damage bang on target.

    The "I don't need hp because I get it from tons of refines" argument could be used the other way around too.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Technically you don't "need" accuracy or str either. You could just refine the heck out of your weapon, add high level ambers and use misties/mastadon/frost and you'd probably still hit crazy amounts of damage bang on target.

    The "I don't need hp because I get it from tons of refines" argument could be used the other way around too.

    Not really. I have over 200 dex, refined weapon, and 2 Misty rings. I still miss quite a bit on archers compared to other classes.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    perfect amber shard = 125 acc each

    2 of these = 250

    assume base acc of 1k and 2 misty forest rings (this is assuming 90+ vit build acc with axes)

    thats 2.5k acc archers will eat your lunch i've seen more level 8x bm's go down to 7x archas than i care to mention

    strength amplifies weapon damage its not a static bounus though it does work of your base as well go look at the damage formula sometime dude

    at my level a 40 strength increase (after my latest restat >.<) uped my phys attack by 500 on just fists

    any bm with = level refines on weapon will deal FAR more than you

    vit is static giving a set amount of hp per point whereas strength amplifies and bm's get the most out of dex of any class in game per point

    do math it worksb:bye
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Technically you don't "need" accuracy or str either. You could just refine the heck out of your weapon, add high level ambers and use misties/mastadon/frost and you'd probably still hit crazy amounts of damage bang on target.

    The "I don't need hp because I get it from tons of refines" argument could be used the other way around too.

    STR, you can refine from weapon yes, but you can't get as much accuracy out of gears. There are 6 pieces of armor you can refine for HP but only 2 sockets that you can put ambers in. 2 misties help at 7X and facing 7X archers, but once you are 9X facing 9X archers who will be most likely pure DEX and you still only have the same accuracy you did back at 7X then have fun not hitting them. The problem could be solved by using accuracy powder, but it's quite a hassle to always farm for/buy them. If they kite you till the powder's wear off then the long cool down means you are screwed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    STR, you can refine from weapon yes, but you can't get as much accuracy out of gears. There are 6 pieces of armor you can refine for HP but only 2 sockets that you can put ambers in. 2 misties help at 7X and facing 7X archers, but once you are 9X facing 9X archers who will be most likely pure DEX and you still only have the same accuracy you did back at 7X then have fun not hitting them. The problem could be solved by using accuracy powder, but it's quite a hassle to always farm for/buy them. If they kite you till the powder's wear off then the long cool down means you are screwed.

    ^^^ This b:thanks
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary
    RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary Posts: 212 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    Hp is important when dealing with magic attacks, because your magic defense sucks, so your hp is all your have to absorb the larger hits. Actually in general magic defense, even if it is high, does little against magic attacks..they just hit so damn hard. Ive seen arcanes (75%+mresist) one shotted by wizards nukes as easily as ive seen bms killed in a similar fashion. Sage black ice dragon for example has a 50% crit chance, which if it crits will hit over 15k damage on you...this would kill almost any bm even with huge refines, and with another 20-30% resist magic...the results will still probably be the same. A normal wizard will hit you for 1.5-3k or more with standard attacks as well, even with alter magical on and fully buffed (this is where haveing over 10k hp will really help you...wont save you from a crit nuke but will save you from more normal attacks). This is why barbarians are actually the best class at dealing with magic, because over 20k hp is much more capeable of absorbing hits even with inferior magic defense.

    This is why you should always plan for at least some extra hp, because it will help you out alot when fighting against magic. Physical resistance you have plenty of already, which will take care of physical attacks fine (that extra hp helps with BOTH physical and magical attacks)...physical attacks save berserk crits, armageddon, combinations of spark erupts, high dps builds, or debuffing hit no where near as much as magic can on you.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Hp is important when dealing with magic attacks, because your magic defense sucks, so your hp is all your have to absorb the larger hits. Actually in general magic defense, even if it is high, does little against magic attacks..they just hit so damn hard. Ive seen arcanes (75%+mresist) one shotted by wizards nukes as easily as ive seen bms killed in a similar fashion. Sage black ice dragon for example has a 50% crit chance, which if it crits will hit over 15k damage on you...this would kill almost any bm even with huge refines, and with another 20-30% resist magic...the results will still probably be the same. A normal wizard will hit you for 1.5-3k or more with standard attacks as well, even with alter magical on and fully buffed (this is where haveing over 10k hp will really help you...wont save you from a crit nuke but will save you from more normal attacks). This is why barbarians are actually the best class at dealing with magic, because over 20k hp is much more capeable of absorbing hits even with inferior magic defense.

    This is why you should always plan for at least some extra hp, because it will help you out alot when fighting against magic. Physical resistance you have plenty of already, which will take care of physical attacks fine (that extra hp helps with BOTH physical and magical attacks)...physical attacks save berserk crits, armageddon, combinations of spark erupts, high dps builds, or debuffing hit no where near as much as magic can on you.


    Use magic def ornaments, and use alter marrow correctly. Yes BIDS still hits hard but the things is so damn slow, you can easily time a spark to resist. The nuke they have that 1-shots arcane users deals half phy damage by the way.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary
    RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary Posts: 212 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    Im just saying ive seen wizards one shot other arcanes with BIDS, and yes Blade Tempest is better vs arcanes. I have alter marrow magical sage, and magic attacks still are quite painful. Mdef ornaments unless refined would add mabye 2-4% mresist base, which really tbh wont save you as much as alot of hp, but will help. I used the arcane example to demonstrate that even with alot of mdef magic attacks are still capable of hitting like a truck, and that mdef is not the only part of defending from magic effectively. Also yes, of course their are countermeasures, but I am saying if you have to take the hit, this is the best situation you can have, if your out of chi, your genie is recycling its skills/energy, and you've got a wizard hot on your **** you will have to absorb whatever he sends at you until you can get what you need to gain the upper hand. Alot of mdef and alot of hp will go miles farther than just relying on mdef, plus it will help with physical damage, because alter marrow physical leaves you open to t storm, bramble rage, ganking...and a host of other unpleasant things. Im simply pointing out the importance of hp...

    Im a dex based build myself, and am trying to get more hp for these very reasons.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Im just saying ive seen wizards one shot other arcanes with BIDS, and yes Blade Tempest is better vs arcanes. I have alter marrow magical sage, and magic attacks still are quite painful. Mdef ornaments unless refined would add mabye 2-4% mresist base, which really tbh wont save you as much as alot of hp, but will help. I used the arcane example to demonstrate that even with alot of mdef magic attacks are still capable of hitting like a truck, and that mdef is not the only part of defending from magic effectively. Also yes, of course their are countermeasures, but I am saying if you have to take the hit, this is the best situation you can have, if your out of chi, your genie is recycling its skills/energy, and you've got a wizard hot on your **** you will have to absorb whatever he sends at you until you can get what you need to gain the upper hand. Alot of mdef and alot of hp will go miles farther than just relying on mdef, plus it will help with physical damage, because alter marrow physical leaves you open to t storm, bramble rage, ganking...and a host of other unpleasant things. Im simply pointing out the importance of hp...


    How's that work for you? :/ I am debating leveling it past 5 honestly. At level 5 it basically cancels golden aura on me and then gives me a magic defense version of golden aura. I am afraid that I'll get my **** handed to me if I level it up farther.

    O.o Who the heck doesn't refine their gear at our level? and yeah HP is important. I'm just saying you can get plenty enough from refines and shards. I don't think vit makes too huge of a difference for BMs
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary
    RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary Posts: 212 Arc User
    edited November 2009
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    Oh it works wonders, when im fully buffed my pdef is base (what it is without buffs), and my mresist is 66%+...they are both around the same %, so it balances my defenses. Helps vs pure magic stuff alot, mixed i just shadowless/stun outta the casts. I used to keep my marrows at 7...when I changed them to 10 I never had any problems, and was actually happy with my decision...only used them against single type attackers anyway. Because of your self buff magical marrow will never leave you with less than 40% of your normal pdef (this should still be about 50% resist physical considering exponential nature of defense, imma have to check that tho), and if you aquire the sage bell, 70% of your normal defense minimally...and have 180% increased magic defense. Also usually ornaments are the last thing people refine, since those hp mods will help you vs all forms of attacks, while the mdef will only help you vs magic. And yes after you get very high refines taking out the vit is an option to put somewhere else...though really comes down to do i want the extra 750-1500 hp or not.

    As for physical marrow i dont tend to use it in pvp because without a mdef buff to counter act it you have like 0 resistance to magic attacks lol.
  • Mirnack - Lost City
    Mirnack - Lost City Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Ok, im now level 89. I still got a base vit of 3 and 44 with armor. It is true that if you dont have vit you will want good armor with alot of hp shards. But i believe my build is still best in general for PvP. Also Even a bm without vit can tank. Ive tanked nob and pole multiple times. Sure with my build you dont have much magic resistance but there are plenty of other items in the game that can help make up for that (genies TE skill is an example). So telling people that they need vit when they dont have to havent isnt true. also its easy to keep yourself alive with low hp when fighting people within 5+ levels of you. I tanked both ZaytroX and Dazed for over 5 min till Dazed wife came and killed me. mind you its hard to tank physical and magical at the same time as this build. But if you are fighting one or the other and multiples of 1 or the other and they arnt mixed, you still make a good tank.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    I agree Mirnack. I don't get why people equate vitality to tanking.

    DD = Tank
    Vitality = helpful, but not a necessity in tanking

    Barbs have figured this out and that's why so many are now demon and very few have more than 16k hp. The sage/20k+ hp barbs are for very rare situations and cata pullers. Who tanks everything after lvl 90? Fists BMs with 3 vit. Half of us tank everythign lvl 40+, too.

    I have had 5 vit since level 1 and am level 93 now. I couldn't tank Qingzi until level 35+. I coudn't survive 1-3 Drummers initial magic attack until level 85+, and I couldn't tank with only one cleric until lvl 90. I have tanked 90% of my BHs because I DONT have vitality and out DD the barbs so easily. I have tanked WBs. Sure, having 50 more vita would be nice. Having 300 more vita would be nice too, but almost just as unneeded. Vitality becomes just a crutch in pve that players use a buffer for poor play and mistakes.

    As for refines for hp. Strength mutiplies your weapons dmg (not sure on exact calc). Vitality adds to hp at a flat rate and mutiplies pdef and mdef at some rate (again, not sure on exact calculations). Try it out on pwi calculators and the defense gains for 50 vit end game are pretty small (about +150 pdef and mdef) where 50 more strength can add around 500 more dmg per hit endgame. Seems points into str/dex and refines for hp is a much better use.

    So please, stop saying "tank build" and meaning you have vitality. Tank build is 3/2. That being said, I don't pvp and would think vitality would help more there.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • GrimReaperHC - Dreamweaver
    GrimReaperHC - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,695 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Go Necro Go b:chuckle
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Meh, I didn't notice it was a year old but it's not really a necro because the OP is updating us on his view... a year later.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
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