Shaodu Cub nerfed?

angyl
angyl Posts: 16 Arc User
edited August 2009 in Venomancer
I feel really stupid posting to ask about this as not only do I feel like I've been ripped off when I bought my shaodu, but also I didn't notice that the pounce skill had been removed (forgot it came with the cub).

I just wanted to ask for opinions on whether my shaodu is now useless, it has following:

Flesh Ream L3

Tough L1

Bash L3

Roar L1

I'm not planning on pvp, this is for use against mobs & bosses and just want to know if I've wasted my time & money?

Thanks
Post edited by angyl on
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Comments

  • Mothergoose - Sanctuary
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    angyl wrote: »
    I feel really stupid posting to ask about this as not only do I feel like I've been ripped off when I bought my shaodu, but also I didn't notice that the pounce skill had been removed (forgot it came with the cub).

    I just wanted to ask for opinions on whether my shaodu is now useless, it has following:

    Flesh Ream L3

    Tough L1

    Bash L3

    Roar L1

    I'm not planning on pvp, this is for use against mobs & bosses and just want to know if I've wasted my time & money?

    Thanks

    For pve mobs, pounce is useless. For bosses, shaodu cub doesn't stand a chance with or without pounce anyway.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Shadou Cub isn't a pvp pet, and pounce does have it's uses in PvE. Unlike -%ch, Pounce speeds up casting as well.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • angyl
    angyl Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    Shadou Cub isn't a pvp pet, and pounce does have it's uses in PvE. Unlike -%ch, Pounce speeds up casting as well.

    That's why I said I'm not planning on pvp. So perhaps I have wasted my money then, if pounce sounds this useful?!
  • Mothergoose - Sanctuary
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    Shadou Cub isn't a pvp pet, and pounce does have it's uses in PvE. Unlike -%ch, Pounce speeds up casting as well.

    Casting? You mean pet's attack rate?
  • Xymantha - Dreamweaver
    Xymantha - Dreamweaver Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    afaik Bash holds agro better than pounce does so I'd say you've not wasted your money.
    I'm a man
  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Bash lvl 3 and flesh ream lvl 3... I say cool ^^
    Cuz normally flesh ream is lvl 1. And bash holds better agro then pounce and its also lvl 3!! Saves you alot of money on upgrading ^^
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    Shadou Cub isn't a pvp pet, and pounce does have it's uses in PvE. Unlike -%ch, Pounce speeds up casting as well.

    No it doesn't. Pounce and spark, count how many nukes during spark.
  • KazumaSei - Dreamweaver
    KazumaSei - Dreamweaver Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Bash = aggro skill

    Flesh Ream = pvp **** skill (and halfway decent aggro when combined with bash)

    Pounce = isn't this a rare skill book skill? and if so... would be nice to know EXACTLY what the skill description says (not just a telephone-game copy of it)

    btw- shadou cub is better than magmite for tanking, just thought i'd put that out there (or at least seems so from my experience)
  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    KazumaSei - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    btw- shadou cub is better than magmite for tanking, just thought i'd put that out there (or at least seems so from my experience)

    With phys mobs they are both great tankers. When fighting a mag mob the cub is much better. But the cub does not as much dmg as the magmite, so it will take longer to kill something.
  • Mothergoose - Sanctuary
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    With phys mobs they are both great tankers. When fighting a mag mob the cub is much better. But the cub does not as much dmg as the magmite, so it will take longer to kill something.

    There are no mobs that will use magic attack when meleed. There are a few bosses that do, but cub can't tank any bosses their own level anyway. So, golem tanks better than the cub, period. Another thing is, if you're a pure veno build with refined weapon, you can lose aggro with cub on a regular basis, making it annoying to grind.
  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There are no mobs that will use magic attack when meleed. There are a few bosses that do, but cub can't tank any bosses their own level anyway. So, golem tanks better than the cub, period. Another thing is, if you're a pure veno build with refined weapon, you can lose aggro with cub on a regular basis, making it annoying to grind.

    I agree a cub isnt a good grinding pet. And most of the time the magmite is slightly better at bosses because it does more dmg (not because of tanking abilities). But the cub can tank them too. I've never lost agro when healing. At TT the cub is way better, cuz those bosses do use use close range mag attacks. But magmite can tank too (1-1 solo mode) but you have to spam heal.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There are no mobs that will use magic attack when meleed. There are a few bosses that do, but cub can't tank any bosses their own level anyway. So, golem tanks better than the cub, period. Another thing is, if you're a pure veno build with refined weapon, you can lose aggro with cub on a regular basis, making it annoying to grind.

    There are MANY mobs that use magic when meleed. There are MANY bosses that use magic when meleed. Veno's using the Cub for TT 1-1 at level 60 appear to have a higher success rate than those who use Golem. Cub is better tank period. Can't blame aggro issues on pet. - that's at hands of Veno.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Mothergoose - Sanctuary
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    There are MANY mobs that use magic when meleed. There are MANY bosses that use magic when meleed. Veno's using the Cub for TT 1-1 at level 60 appear to have a higher success rate than those who use Golem. Cub is better tank period. Can't blame aggro issues on pet. - that's at hands of Veno.

    No, you're wrong, there are no grinding mob in outside world that use only magic attack, even when meleed. Golem is the better tank, period. Stop lying in order to sell your catshop cubs. And stop hiding behind a general avatar. For all we know, you're level 1.
  • Noblet - Sanctuary
    Noblet - Sanctuary Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    There are MANY mobs that use magic when meleed. There are MANY bosses that use magic when meleed. Veno's using the Cub for TT 1-1 at level 60 appear to have a higher success rate than those who use Golem. Cub is better tank period. Can't blame aggro issues on pet. - that's at hands of Veno.

    I've never seen any mobs that are magic only that's not dungeon elites. You need to list examples to back up your claim, when your claim runs counter to what people can see for themselves.
  • turtlewax
    turtlewax Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There are no mobs that will use magic attack when meleed.



    Yes, they do, your golem just blocked the view.
  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    There are MANY mobs that use magic when meleed. There are MANY bosses that use magic when meleed. Veno's using the Cub for TT 1-1 at level 60 appear to have a higher success rate than those who use Golem. Cub is better tank period. Can't blame aggro issues on pet. - that's at hands of Veno.
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »
    No, you're wrong, there are no grinding mob in outside world that use only magic attack, even when meleed. Golem is the better tank, period. Stop lying in order to sell your catshop cubs. And stop hiding behind a general avatar. For all we know, you're level 1.

    I agree that there are many bosses that use magic attack even when fighting close range melee. But I cant remember a mob outside of a dungeon doing this. Hmmm maybe suzerix, but dont know for shore cuz I only tanked him with me as tank b:chuckle mantavip, also a maybe...
    When tanking melee mobs its all up to the person to decide whats best. Because they are both great at phys mobs. Magmite holds better agro, but when you only heal and not attack it doesnt matter cuz mostly (im not saying it cant happen) the pet wont lose agro when you heal. But with only your pet attacking I do prefer one that does good dmg. Meaning magmite.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »
    No, you're wrong, there are no grinding mob in outside world that use only magic attack, even when meleed. Golem is the better tank, period. Stop lying in order to sell your catshop cubs. And stop hiding behind a general avatar. For all we know, you're level 1.

    You're now writing libel about me which is against the TOS: http://www.perfectworld.com/about/terms . I've never sold or had possession of a Shadou Cub on any character or account.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Noblet - Sanctuary
    Noblet - Sanctuary Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    You're now writing libel about me which is against the TOS: http://www.perfectworld.com/about/terms . I've never sold or had possession of a Shadou Cub on any character or account.

    Wow, no offense, but you fail. XD
  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    You're now writing libel about me which is against the TOS: http://www.perfectworld.com/about/terms . I've never sold or had possession of a Shadou Cub on any character or account.

    lol..wanted to say something..but better dont cuz I think you know what im trying to say...(about TOS)

    Just keep it on topic ppl. Dont want the Gm's to close this one b:surrender
  • KazumaSei - Dreamweaver
    KazumaSei - Dreamweaver Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    With phys mobs they are both great tankers. When fighting a mag mob the cub is much better. But the cub does not as much dmg as the magmite, so it will take longer to kill something.

    ah yes, good point... totally forgot about that b:surrender
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Plenty of caster mobs, like the various pyro's use magic even at melee range.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Higher pet DPS does not always mean faster kills. If you're stuck healing more, it slows down the killing. Howl (comes on many wolves) helps kill faster also. You need a huge amount of damage to consistently go from 4 hit kills to 3 and even more from 3 to 2.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    Higher pet DPS does not always mean faster kills. If you're stuck healing more, it slows down the killing. Howl (comes on many wolves) helps kill faster also. You need a huge amount of damage to consistently go from 4 hit kills to 3 and even more from 3 to 2.

    Whilst true, there's another angle to this - which is that with a higher DPS you have more ability to cast without having to wait for the pet to draw aggro.

    I also like howl though, lasts long enough to boost two or three spells, which is all you usually need.
  • williamzeo
    williamzeo Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Plenty of caster mobs, like the various pyro's use magic even at melee range.

    Theres other kind of monster that only use magic, but spend money in a Cub just for 2 mobs from the entire game isn't a good deal. Want a good magic tanker? Get a Marskmen, he have long range attack ensuring that the mob only will use magic against him (that usualy take longer to cast = less damage on your pet b:laugh) and he have a decent MDef (higher than golem), come with 3 good skills and for free!!! He have a good attack that don't get reduction by the range, even if he fight melee his attack won't will drop.

    For me the Cub only worth for his rare skill, without that you only have a cute pet with decent defenses, i don't know why you guys think that the golem have a low Mdef, his Mdef is fine, at least is higher than mine that use light armor.
  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    williamzeo wrote: »
    For me the Cub only worth for his rare skill, without that you only have a cute pet with decent defenses, i don't know why you guys think that the golem have a low Mdef, his Mdef is fine, at least is higher than mine that use light armor.

    You dont get the cub for its skill cuz its not a good agro skill. You get it for mag tanking..like TT. Has high hp and high mag def. Making it great for TT when you dont have a herc. (But only for the bosses..for other mobs inside I still use my magmite xD)
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    I agree there's not MANY magic only monsters. But someone said there weren't any at all, was just pointing out that yes, there are some.

    And for those, yes, I actually did find the shadou a better tank than my magmite - it needed less healing afterwards.

    The eldergoth is good. Very good. At least partly because it doesn't cause the monsters to try and kite it, they just stand ten paces apart, whilst one flings fire and my monkey flings poo.

    But.. the eldergoth is also pretty fragile. If a second pyro gets onto it and they start chaining fire then I end up chain healing the eldergoth (or with fried monkey)

    The greater hitpoints of even the magmite, with its comparatively puny magic resist are a huge asset here. It will survive the burn until it wears off and I can heal properly.

    The other place the shadou shines is the exploding mobs (reverex etc.) - since that's a magic attack. It takes a much smaller chunk of its health bar from an explosion, allowing it to survive simultaneous explosions, even sacrificial-assault ones. Neither the magmite nor the eldergoth can do that.
    Edit: Well, obviously they can now, they couldn't at level 42ish though.

    I agree, it's unusual to need a magic tank, but it's not like it never happens. And the cub makes a fairly good one.

    Pounce is just gravy. It doesn't stun often enough to rely upon it, but when it does stun that's a very nice thing. Saves at least one heal.

    And, um, yes. Light armour's mdef sucks.


    I've not tried other magic tanks much to compare it. The antelope I did try was too fragile, and I have no frog.


    To address the original question:
    Yeah, I think I prefer a Shadou with pounce over one with tough.

    But I can certainly see that if you're intending to use it as a tank that you'll get more mileage out of levelling up the fleshream (and using roar as your opening attack) than you would out of pounce, for keeping aggro.

    And tough is pretty nice for keeping the pet alive.

    Still, if you're going to ditch pounce, I'd rather have replaced it with an elemental bash than with roar.
    Looks to me like someone was experimenting with their pet, didn't like the results, and sold it off.
  • Mothergoose - Sanctuary
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Plenty of caster mobs, like the various pyro's use magic even at melee range.

    That is actually not accurate. They just have long channeling speed for magic attacks. So when they aggro on pet just before it reaches and melees it, the mob is still channeling, and end up hit the pet once with magic for initial hit, then switch to melee. One hit doesn't matter much. It's not pure magic/no melee, like some bosses.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That is actually not accurate. They just have long channeling speed for magic attacks. So when they aggro on pet just before it reaches and melees it, the mob is still channeling, and end up hit the pet once with magic for initial hit, then switch to melee. One hit doesn't matter much. It's not pure magic/no melee, like some bosses.

    Ok, I'll go test this - but I'm damn sure I've had pyro's continue using magic even whilst I'm smacking them.

    Some monsters don't - scrunchkin casters will go melee if they have to, as will dodonix's.

    But some, I'm sure, do.
  • williamzeo
    williamzeo Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    I belive that use or don't use the Cub it's a matter of taste, i personaly hated him (and i only used him untill the lv61), i had to level my lv50 golem again and "maybe" i only will change him for the Cub father xD,cause i don't want to spend money in skills for my golem (more than i alread spend).

    Not that the Cub is particulary weak, all the pets that have 0.8 attack speed have the similar attack base, the ones that attack for 0.6 have more and the ranged ones (0.5) have a high attack too. If you have two attack skills in your pet any mob will turn to you, that's guaranteed. Unless that you catch one i don't think that he worth the money... just wait for (when had) a server maintence to over and try your luck in catch one.

    I was trying to figure the best elemental skill for add in a pet. The equips usualy give add of water, people try to strengthen their metal defense because of the Archers, Mages always walk with their earth shield, this leaves room for Fire, because healers usualy have a high wood defense. I'm right or wrong?
  • turtlewax
    turtlewax Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    williamzeo wrote: »
    Theres other kind of monster that only use magic, but spend money in a Cub just for 2 mobs from the entire game isn't a good deal.

    You find plenty of magic mobs around, some are pretty aggressive and aggro easily when your pet is fighting near them.
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That is actually not accurate. ...

    Saying that magic mobs never use magic in melee range is not accurate. They do, what more is there to say about it?

    Furthermore, the really annoying and aggressive ones will easily aggro on a nearby pet fighting another mob, In which case they will use ranged magic attacks. They'll also switch to these when you need to direct your pet (before you can heal it) to draw aggro from a new threat.

    You can avoid these situations and areas, or pull or carefully draw and kill the more aggresive types first, but that doesn't speed up the grinding. A higher M-def does help and the cub has fewer of the drawbacks that tend to come with the high M-def pets.
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    But some, I'm sure, do.

    I'm pretty sure the antelope pups did, or at least, they started channeling shortly before dieing.

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