food for thought
Aoe - Heavens Tear
Posts: 197 Arc User
I love to read and came across these two articles. You see a lot in mmo's especially in perfect world game speculation, or the consumer base starting to develop feelings of being neglected by gm's and dev's. As i was reading it, i thought it had a lot of good suggestions but also some good insight. The patch not one i think pwi does really good about informing us of changes in detail that have been made in game. However you see if there isn't much detail in a patch what affect it has on the community. Anyway i'll post a link to these two since they're pretty long.
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3299/User-Feedback.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3346/The-Evolution-of-a-Patch-Note.html
I know that there are lots of posts on forums where there are frustrated people who complain, so i kind of understand a bit more how this method works from this article. User feedback is a very good thing, although many of us get irritated at seeing it. People posting actually help contribute to a problem being solved or noticed. It triggers dev's and gm's to look into game mechanics or watch if what this player is saying is true.
I think the frustration for the player that complains is that he doesn't see results fast enough. However, i learned myself that's just the beggining process. Dev's actually have to look at more than just user feed back on forums. Not very many people post an opinion of how they feel. So dev's have to look at usage data, and get focus group data. That must take a lot time and planning. Then they must find a fix that works and have it tested, even more time. As busy as pwi is that's understandable.
Actually it's very easy for me to find a game unappealing cause of the forums. I think this helped me with that so i wanted to share it with others. ^ ^
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3299/User-Feedback.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3346/The-Evolution-of-a-Patch-Note.html
I know that there are lots of posts on forums where there are frustrated people who complain, so i kind of understand a bit more how this method works from this article. User feedback is a very good thing, although many of us get irritated at seeing it. People posting actually help contribute to a problem being solved or noticed. It triggers dev's and gm's to look into game mechanics or watch if what this player is saying is true.
I think the frustration for the player that complains is that he doesn't see results fast enough. However, i learned myself that's just the beggining process. Dev's actually have to look at more than just user feed back on forums. Not very many people post an opinion of how they feel. So dev's have to look at usage data, and get focus group data. That must take a lot time and planning. Then they must find a fix that works and have it tested, even more time. As busy as pwi is that's understandable.
Actually it's very easy for me to find a game unappealing cause of the forums. I think this helped me with that so i wanted to share it with others. ^ ^
Post edited by Aoe - Heavens Tear on
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Comments
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b:avoidinbe4lockedClerics are like cops...they always seem to be around.....until you actually need one b:surrender - DeadRaven
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Alyyy - Sanctuary wrote: »b:avoidinbe4locked
why would my post get locked? What did i violate in the forum rules that would make it get locked. I'm not flaming anyone at all. If you read the articles it's not directed at gm's at all. I feel pwi does a good job at all of this. It's more so for players to have a better understanding of how things work and have a more open view of both sides. Please if you read the article then post a good discussion over it. Don't spam in the thread. I like to hear others opinions or insights about the two of them.0 -
Aoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »why would my post get locked? What did i violate in the forum rules that would make it get locked. I'm not flaming anyone at all. If you read the articles it's not directed at gm's at all. I feel pwi does a good job at all of this. It's more so for players to have a better understanding of how things work and have a more open view of both sides. Please if you read the article then post a good discussion over it. Don't spam in the thread. I like to hear others opinions or insights about the two of them.
b:surrenderwrogn thread soryClerics are like cops...they always seem to be around.....until you actually need one b:surrender - DeadRaven
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
The most interesting thing i found on that second article page was that they advertise a game by TQ digital...the worst bar none of the free to play games companies,just ironic to me.Quit 100%...and surprised my forum account wasn't banned...yet0
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The second article on patch notes,
Like the one where they told us about the genie skills they changed, they only mentioned half of the changes, the rest were for us to figure out on our own.The only way to win is to quit. b:bye0 -
Alyyy - Sanctuary wrote: »b:surrenderwrogn thread sory
LMAO, you have that set as your thread auto-reply?Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
Not sure why people think we would lock this. Not advertising another game, just linking to a few articles that pertain to the industry. don't spam this place... I'm looking at you alyyy
Click here to send a ticket to Customer Support * tumblr
* twitter.com/battleimmortals * FB * BoI MySpace * Blog0 -
What i thought was interesting is no matter how much the company tells the gamers that they are listening to them, the gamer will never believe it. Even if in the next patch you see the improvement there.
But i kind of like the no factor too lol. That sometimes the answer is a no but people don't really accept no for an answer. Kind of like a prayer everyone wants the blessing answered the way the want it, but never accept the answer they actually get may be for the best or a no. Doesn't mean they aren't being heard though, i think pwi should rest assure their being heard, watched, and studied. ^ ^0 -
I would have to say from what I have seen so far that PWI does a much better job with patch notes than a lot of other MMORPG's I have played. They also do a much better job of letting you know they are listening. Even if the problem you are bringing up does not get fixed in the near future or ever in some cases the fact that the GM's will often at least tell you they are taking a look into it is very good and reassuring. It means in the end that whatever your issue be they have been made aware of it which is really what you want in the first place.
However, there is the "No" thing and I think while it is understandable that it happens it could be handled better. A lot of companies are scared to say "No" let alone explain themselves but I think they would build a much stronger community if they did this. If they actually said "No, we are not going to do that because (insert their explanation here).". Why bother to tell people this when you know it may make them mad? Because by telling them No you have confirmed that you DID hear them and give them one less thing to complain about in the future. No sense making them repeatedly infuriated that their issue is not being fixed when you know that the reason it is not being fixed is because you are not going to fix it. Also by giving your explanation about why you are not going to change that aspect of the game you can hopefully make the customer better understand your point of view and be able to see why it cannot be done. You may also get the surprise of having someone savvy come up with a workable solution for you if the reason is some sort of a problem that you just cannot work around yourselves.0 -
Hasukurobi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I would have to say from what I have seen so far that PWI does a much better job with patch notes than a lot of other MMORPG's I have played. They also do a much better job of letting you know they are listening. Even if the problem you are bringing up does not get fixed in the near future or ever in some cases the fact that the GM's will often at least tell you they are taking a look into it is very good and reassuring. It means in the end that whatever your issue be they have been made aware of it which is really what you want in the first place.
However, there is the "No" thing and I think while it is understandable that it happens it could be handled better. A lot of companies are scared to say "No" let alone explain themselves but I think they would build a much stronger community if they did this. If they actually said "No, we are not going to do that because (insert their explanation here).". Why bother to tell people this when you know it may make them mad? Because by telling them No you have confirmed that you DID hear them and give them one less thing to complain about in the future. No sense making them repeatedly infuriated that their issue is not being fixed when you know that the reason it is not being fixed is because you are not going to fix it. Also by giving your explanation about why you are not going to change that aspect of the game you can hopefully make the customer better understand your point of view and be able to see why it cannot be done. You may also get the surprise of having someone savvy come up with a workable solution for you if the reason is some sort of a problem that you just cannot work around yourselves.
Actually pwi does do this too. They just don't repeatedly do it. For example xarfox with the flesh ream bug. The skill is bugged gm's have stated that. They have stated that they are reporting it to the dev team. However, you see lot's of players still upset and complaining and feeling as if they are not being heard. When in actuality they are being heard but it may take some time to fix and test this bug. Now you have veno's shouting there is nothing wrong with the skill (like the article said no one complains when it works for their benefit). However they should not be surprised that the bug will indeed get fixed, but you always have the one that will come on the forums and complain they don't like the change. Like the article said it is very hard for GM's and Dev's to get it across that they are indeed listening.
Or now with gold prices, gm's are very aware that gold prices have rise high and as they said are trying to find solutions. They have to do more than just watch forums, all this has a process. And many times this could be trial and error. It's good this mmo has a lot of new content, and it's good they like to try new things, sometimes those things don't work for the best, you'll find later they make decisions to remove it. Still what ever course they take it will not happen over night.
I think it is because many of us came from games that have very poor customer service. We feel like we aren't being heard. Those of us who are being heard, many times we want it our way, but it may not be the best way. It has to compensate everyone just not one person. And we have to keep in mind of the millions of people that play pwi, only a very very small portion of them post.0 -
so the logical solution to get gold back to 100k per gold is to release a box that gives 1 mil in exchange for a item that cost 5 gold thereby pinning the gold value at 200kAoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »Actually pwi does do this too. They just don't repeatedly do it. For example xarfox with the flesh ream bug. The skill is bugged gm's have stated that. They have stated that they are reporting it to the dev team. However, you see lot's of players still upset and complaining and feeling as if they are not being heard. When in actuality they are being heard but it may take some time to fix and test this bug. Now you have veno's shouting there is nothing wrong with the skill (like the article said no one complains when it works for their benefit). However they should not be surprised that the bug will indeed get fixed, but you always have the one that will come on the forums and complain they don't like the change. Like the article said it is very hard for GM's and Dev's to get it across that they are indeed listening.
Or now with gold prices, gm's are very aware that gold prices have rise high and as they said are trying to find solutions. They have to do more than just watch forums, all this has a process. And many times this could be trial and error. It's good this mmo has a lot of new content, and it's good they like to try new things, sometimes those things don't work for the best, you'll find later they make decisions to remove it. Still what ever course they take it will not happen over night.
I think it is because many of us came from games that have very poor customer service. We feel like we aren't being heard. Those of us who are being heard, many times we want it our way, but it may not be the best way. It has to compensate everyone just not one person. And we have to keep in mind of the millions of people that play pwi, only a very very small portion of them post.
sounds reasonable
if ur high0 -
AndromedaB - Sanctuary wrote: »so the logical solution to get gold back to 100k per gold is to release a box that gives 1 mil in exchange for a item that cost 5 gold thereby pinning the gold value at 200k
sounds reasonable
if ur high
For one there are lots of threads debating on that I am surely not disputing how this would be solved. Feel free to debate that in the rising gold price thread not here. My point is this the game is trial an error you implement something, feed back says oops that was wrong change it. You make a change watch the results for a while and make decisions from that. In other words things take time. Or better yet it takes time to fix. Over night patches are just that but it takes devs weeks and months to decide to change something. Not one day so if there feed back is negative again you can expect it would take weeks and months to change it again.
On a side note insulting someone on the forums is never going to get your point across. I wouldn't take someone seriously if you can't speak to me without flaming me, i definitely wouldn't care what they had to say. Hostility only warrants more hostility. I for one am patiently watching to see where the game is headed. What the dev team is expecting of it. I do admit it would help if they made their community more aware of their goals and why these changes are being implemented. It be nice to see what the find in their usage data that warrants these changes. Obviously there is something they see we don't. I doubt it has anything to do with a new game. Some of us cash shoppers could already have gone to a p2p, but i for one don't have time to grind for eight hours a day to keep up and get ahead in an mmo. PWI allows me to play and keep a pace. I spend more money than a p2p true, but i am happy with my results. So i don't think it is that. I do know Christmas season is coming and means money will be tight because i do most my shopping late September through November. Perhaps pwi is trying to compensate for those months they see profit margins dropping. Or maybe they're marketing team sees a fall in economy, it still is hard times in America, China, Europe, etc. People are pinching their pennies so companies must adjust. That's the only logical thing that i can conclude. I don't like to assume though so let's wait and see.0 -
Aoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »Actually pwi does do this too. They just don't repeatedly do it. For example xarfox with the flesh ream bug. The skill is bugged gm's have stated that. They have stated that they are reporting it to the dev team. However, you see lot's of players still upset and complaining and feeling as if they are not being heard. When in actuality they are being heard but it may take some time to fix and test this bug. Now you have veno's shouting there is nothing wrong with the skill (like the article said no one complains when it works for their benefit). However they should not be surprised that the bug will indeed get fixed, but you always have the one that will come on the forums and complain they don't like the change. Like the article said it is very hard for GM's and Dev's to get it across that they are indeed listening.
Or now with gold prices, gm's are very aware that gold prices have rise high and as they said are trying to find solutions. They have to do more than just watch forums, all this has a process. And many times this could be trial and error. It's good this mmo has a lot of new content, and it's good they like to try new things, sometimes those things don't work for the best, you'll find later they make decisions to remove it. Still what ever course they take it will not happen over night.
I think it is because many of us came from games that have very poor customer service. We feel like we aren't being heard. Those of us who are being heard, many times we want it our way, but it may not be the best way. It has to compensate everyone just not one person. And we have to keep in mind of the millions of people that play pwi, only a very very small portion of them post.
Well, I did say that they are good at letting us know they hear us and are paying attention around here IMO. However, sometimes they seem pretty dead set on the "No" option but do not really bother explaining.
For instance, we asked awhile ago if they were going to make it possible to transfer +'s from one item to another via the NPC which exists in the game. They answered "Not currently and it is unlikely that it will ever happen.". Ok, fair enough, that means they heard our question and responded. However, they never said "Why" that was the answer. Of course the immediate conclusion of most people was "Because if they implement that then they will lose money because people will not buy more Dragon Orbs. So it must be Greed!". It would help to nail speculation down if instead they had explained a bit further like: "No we are not going to implement that service because it would promote the refining of early equipment to high levels which cheapens the idea of refining and would make the game too easy and weaken class interactions that are currently vital to proper group play." The paranoid conclusion drawn seems like an unlikely answer because if people DID use the new items to transfer refinement then they would be buying a LOT of those stones instead of Dragon Orbs. In the end the company may well make more money form such a move but there is likely many other reasons why they said no, they just did not give them.
Yes, btw, "The Devs told us No and did not give us an explanation." is also fair considering that sometimes the GM's may not KNOW why such an answer is given but at least if they convey that then the people know it is not their fault and they are not just trying to hold out on them or something.0 -
Hasukurobi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yes, btw, "The Devs told us No and did not give us an explanation." is also fair considering that sometimes the GM's may not KNOW why such an answer is given but at least if they convey that then the people know it is not their fault and they are not just trying to hold out on them or something.
If they say 'No', at least they have acknowledged that they've heard what's being said. If they just avoid the topic so they don't have to say 'No', everyone continues to complain because they feel ignored.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"aadi is a forum ninja, always there, skirting thru the shadows... striking with quick posts while you are distracted by your own" -Alexeno(kin)
"We talk about you because you're fab. b:cute" -Chillum
"You live for forums. Like seriously."0 -
Aadi - Lost City wrote: »If they say 'No', at least they have acknowledged that they've heard what's being said. If they just avoid the topic so they don't have to say 'No', everyone continues to complain because they feel ignored.
Pretty much yes and not only that, but if players get a no, and also get an explanation to the no, they still do not accept the no and continue to complain. There have been many times gm's will sit down and explain what is going on in game. They will even say no and give an explanation why, however players will still become upset and still want it their way. Then over time people forget the gm's have explained it before and soon there are new threads with the same complaint over and over. Even though this has been explained. You also get that occasional person who likes to start rumors. "GM's don't listen to us," but a logical person would say 'how do you know they don't listen?' I think the gm's of this game have proved more through their actions, then through their words that they are indeed listening.
Also i find with my kids, even though I say no and explain why I said no, they do not accept the no s and continue to ask questions. However, i already know what they are trying to do. Children often look for loop holes in your conversation. They are clever enough to persuade the conversation to go their way and making you feel that you are unfair when they find any contradictions. It's why i always say no one more time to them so they get the point or i do not respond to their questions at all. My silence usually warns them and let's them know that is the end of the discussion from my part.
I am sure in business this theory may somewhat apply. When a company says no, they must make it short and to the point leaving no room for dispute. If the conversation continues then already a player would find a loop whole and the conversation could quickly fall apart. Looking at a customer service aspect you could end up in a quarrel, which is definitely not what you want to cause. Quarreling with a customer will cause you to loose business, and any chance you had to repair the relationship between them is now wasted. So if something is a no, you state why and use your company policy as a reinforcement. Since most clients sign a company policy when using their product. (TOS is an example) That's why you won't see gm's discuss it any further than the information that we are given. People love rumors, love to assume, love to speculate, love to accuse, love to argue, etc. There are many types of people who get kicks form seeing arguments, or causing them. Others like using people to try to make themselves look better and smarter. However these people are not working from a professional view as a whole nor do they have all the facts or data. A company must appease to a whole not a select few and must still keep it professional.
I do agree though at times an explanation does need to be given, but will it be accepted?0 -
Aoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »1) Pretty much yes and not only that, but if players get a no, and also get an explanation to the no, they still do not accept the no and continue to complain. There have been many times gm's will sit down and explain what is going on in game. They will even say no and give an explanation why, however players will still become upset and still want it their way. Then over time people forget the gm's have explained it before and soon there are new threads with the same complaint over and over. Even though this has been explained.
2) I am sure in business this theory may somewhat apply. When a company says no, they must make it short and to the point leaving no room for dispute. If the conversation continues then already a player would find a loop whole and the conversation could quickly fall apart. Looking at a customer service aspect you could end up in a quarrel, which is definitely not what you want to cause. Quarreling with a customer will cause you to loose business, and any chance you had to repair the relationship between them is now wasted. So if something is a no, you state why and use your company policy as a reinforcement. Since most clients sign a company policy when using their product. (TOS is an example) That's why you won't see gm's discuss it any further than the information that we are given. People love rumors, love to assume, love to speculate, love to accuse, love to argue, etc. There are many types of people who get kicks form seeing arguments, or causing them. Others like using people to try to make themselves look better and smarter. However these people are not working from a professional view as a whole nor do they have all the facts or data. A company must appease to a whole not a select few and must still keep it professional.
1) Trust me...I have watched the forums long enough to know that yes people will deny it was ever explained but also there is ALWAYS someone who will link to the explanation to prove them wrong LOL. It scores cred for the poster who discredits the whiner and helps everyone out at the same time.
2) You never want to argue with a customer, this is true. You also do not have to "Argue" with them. The GM's tend to be rather good at talking to their customers without arguing with them. Do as I often do, if someone makes a post which is just to argue with you, that is the post you ignore and just fail to comment on. There is NEVER a good reason to "Argue" with someone. Debate is fine and healthy but arguing is pointless. This is also why it is ok and even good for them to tell us when they cannot say because they do not know. That shows a lot of integrity and transparency that lets their customers know that instead of lying to them they are going to tell them what they know for fact and nothing more. Thankfully, the GM's here tend to be veeeery good at NOT saying things that they cannot verify. They always check up on what they say before making any solid points and always tell people to hold up while they check out the answer to things to be certain rather than just make up what they think the answer is to get it over with faster.0 -
The difference is this:
Instead of people presenting tickets about said thing they are upset about, they flood the forum board with constant complaining and bickering.
Not one time did I see a thread: This is whats been done, some are unhappy. How can we come to a solution and compromise within our means of control?
Instead they want to continue complaining until everyone who reads the forum sees it their way. Then they want to follow it up with whining and tantrums and eventually.. I'm tired of it.. I'm leaving!
It should be our nature as humans to try to work things out civil, and see anothers point of view best of our ability. But rarely does that happen on here. As important as it is, I saw thread after thread locked, due to the fact the GM and the mods could not keep up with everything going on. Then the masses want to blame them for not listening. Xar could not possibly moderate 40 threads at one time, and it would be silly to expect him to. They listen, they communicate, they try. When they stop listening, stop communicating, and stop trying; then is the time for other action.
Until then, people need to just give them time to do their job. You can get your point across without flaming, cursing, ALL CAPS, and just plain being rude. Don't know about you, but that would be what I'd prefer to navigate through and get appropriate feedback.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
BratFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »The difference is this:
Instead of people presenting tickets about said thing they are upset about, they flood the forum board with constant complaining and bickering.
Not one time did I see a thread: This is whats been done, some are unhappy. How can we come to a solution and compromise within our means of control?
Instead they want to continue complaining until everyone who reads the forum sees it their way. Then they want to follow it up with whining and tantrums and eventually.. I'm tired of it.. I'm leaving!
It should be our nature as humans to try to work things out civil, and see anothers point of view best of our ability. But rarely does that happen on here. As important as it is, I saw thread after thread locked, due to the fact the GM and the mods could not keep up with everything going on. Then the masses want to blame them for not listening. Xar could not possibly moderate 40 threads at one time, and it would be silly to expect him to. They listen, they communicate, they try. When they stop listening, stop communicating, and stop trying; then is the time for other action.
Until then, people need to just give them time to do their job. You can get your point across without flaming, cursing, ALL CAPS, and just plain being rude. Don't know about you, but that would be what I'd prefer to navigate through and get appropriate feedback.
I couldn't agree more brat, but our forum base isn't really made of people like that. Human nature seems to loose to human tendency. The humane thing to do is to be civil and work it out, pay attention, and learn to control our tempers. However, then we would not have war, hate crimes, etc. Tendency for a human when upset is to take the easy route to let off steam (which lately has been to take our rages out on another person). With today's genre we can look at another human being as an object of entertainment (aka toy). Humans have gotten more selfish, all you here is me me me. You'll find the attitude of I don't care what happens to anyone whether i hurt their feelings, steal from them, cheat them, insult them, hit them, etc. As long as i am feeling good, entertained, that other life is worthless. You will see a lot they will blame the other party for their own lack of social skills, telling people they shouldn't be so dumb, naive, pointing out their grammar error, or calling them a noob. ( I wonder who is the idiot though if one can talk to you calmly without insults, and you can't have an adult conversation with out someone being insulted.) Internet makes that no exception because they have the anonymous factor. You cannot see me, hear me, touch me, so i can say and do as i want.
I wish the world was more civil, but then reality sets in and i realize it's not. The complaints are a way for gm's to find out problems but if you look at the poles on this forum how many people vote. 100 formers, maybe more post out of how many players. Do they speak for the majority of players no. Is what they say meaningless? No. They still bring some points to the forums that can contribute to the game, however they do need to understand the world does not revolve around them. There are methods to how this game is run, and there are rules so they truly need to respect that.
I do have to say this, i'll take my own advice as well. If you do not like the thread's discussion, and you do not like that it is complaining simply don't post in it. Posting to tell them to stop qqing, posting to argue with them, or even posting to relate to them only finding they don't listen is a waste. You only feed to the complaint. Obviously this person is upset and is not going to see it the way you do, no matter how much you argue with them. Then let the thread die down or keep the convo to one thread and not cater to the six others about the same subject. Learn when to pick your battles. If you feel it does not bother you and would like to discuss the subject i don't see a problem with doing that, but i think by now we know how to depict whether this is a thread about solution, or about arguing. You can tell by the hostile title they have.
To the the person who posted above brat. I understand where you completely are coming from. Gm job is not easy at all, well customer service in general can be difficult, and they must choose wisely. I wonder if you can get the answers you seek from just a simple ticket. However i have to admit, i wouldn't elude everything my company was planning to the public. Especially if part of my marketing contained the element of surprise. I would like to see too some explanations of why some of the changes occurred, or what is the use for some things. Lol they aren't going to come out and say it was to boost profits, and i doubt it's for that anyway. Actually since the economy has gone bad more and more mmo's have had to lean heavily on the cash shop. Remember pwi grossed 35 mil in a month but that is the company as a whole. That is not alot considering how much it takes to run this game, pay employees, pay for bandwidth and servers, etc. Plus make some profit for themselves, considering this is such a high stressful job i wonder if those therapy bills are adding up. b:surrender0
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