The better Damage Dealer

Haven_Brute - Heavens Tear

Well we all know probably the two best damage dealers are the Wizards and Archers but which is better?

Wizards hit harder in a single hit but takes long to do each hit. Also uses Magic attacks consisting of fire, water, and earth damage.

Archer uses mainly physical attacks, with few a few metal attacks. Archers hit lower in single shots but attack faster and has much higher crit rate.

So what do you all think is the better DD?

Reventon - Harshlands

If the battle (with a boss for exemple) lasts 5 minutes the wizard in your team would do the most damage. Esential sutra and overall stronger skills makes him better than the archer for short battles.
If the battle lasts longer is the other way around. The archer has weaker attacks but the cast time is faster and giving his insane crit rate he will slightly outdamage the wiz on longer battles.

Prediction - Lost City

Reventon - Harshlands wrote: »

If the battle (with a boss for exemple) lasts 5 minutes the wizard in your team would do the most damage. Esential sutra and overall stronger skills makes him better than the archer for short battles.
If the battle lasts longer is the other way around. The archer has weaker attacks but the cast time is faster and giving his insane crit rate he will slightly outdamage the wiz on longer battles.

on any battles longer than 15 seconds, the archer will be doing more dps

i heard this on some other thread but forgot which one

Reventon - Harshlands

I didn't go as far as 15 secs but my post still stands. Archers are better on long periods of time.

Garmr - Harshlands

I know it makes a very short barometer but:

When I was level 31, a 7x wizard 1-shot me 3 times at a wraith event. Each hit was over 3k, and they were non critical. I was dead before I knew I was targeted.

At the same event, a 7x wizard PK'd me 6 times. 1 time they hit a crit and I was dead with one shot. The other 5 times took an average of 5 hits each, long enough for me to run around and track the person down just before I died. Their fewest shots was 3 when they hit a crit on the third shot, most shots was 8 without crits. Their crits were in the low 2k. Regular shots ranged from 200 - 600, mostly around 300-400.

So for the PvP aspect I'd say the Wiz damage is more powerful. Most classes up through 7x have 4-digit HP bars. And if that's on a melee character weak to magic? Doom. The archer has to put in more effort, and hope for more crits, to stack the damage that a Wizard can do with one hit - blowing past charms in some cases. A 5-second channeling time doesn't matter much when it takes that charm 10 seconds to recover and a wiz's damage can take you out in two hits.

When I'm 7x I'll be more wary of the Wizards my level than the Archers. With a charm on, the archer won't be as worrisome because they'd have a harder time forcing past the charm. But the wiz? If they manage to crit on the first or second hit it probably wouldn't be too pretty.

For PvE... Dunno. Haven't gotten my archer into 2x yet but the damage speed is pretty nice. My wizard is 3x. The grinding times are fairly comparable though I've found the Archer works much better with macros

Prediction - Lost City

Garmr - Harshlands wrote: »

I know it makes a very short barometer but:

When I was level 31, a 7x wizard 1-shot me 3 times at a wraith event. Each hit was over 3k, and they were non critical. I was dead before I knew I was targeted.

At the same event, a 7x wizard PK'd me 6 times. 1 time they hit a crit and I was dead with one shot. The other 5 times took an average of 5 hits each, long enough for me to run around and track the person down just before I died. Their fewest shots was 3 when they hit a crit on the third shot, most shots was 8 without crits. Their crits were in the low 2k. Regular shots ranged from 200 - 600, mostly around 300-400.

So for the PvP aspect I'd say the Wiz damage is more powerful. Most classes up through 7x have 4-digit HP bars. And if that's on a melee character weak to magic? Doom. The archer has to put in more effort, and hope for more crits, to stack the damage that a Wizard can do with one hit - blowing past charms in some cases. A 5-second channeling time doesn't matter much when it takes that charm 10 seconds to recover and a wiz's damage can take you out in two hits.

When I'm 7x I'll be more wary of the Wizards my level than the Archers. With a charm on, the archer won't be as worrisome because they'd have a harder time forcing past the charm. But the wiz? If they manage to crit on the first or second hit it probably wouldn't be too pretty.

For PvE... Dunno. Haven't gotten my archer into 2x yet but the damage speed is pretty nice. My wizard is 3x. The grinding times are fairly comparable though I've found the Archer works much better with macros

for pve, archers are better because of fast hit rate and high damage

for pvp, any 7x would 1 hit at your lvl and archers have metals too. wizards may outdamage us in 1 hit but our damage is not ****, we can 1 hit ppl just as easily. we also don't "hope" for crits, 7x archers have around 20% crit rate

AngelOfLust - Heavens Tear

Garmr - Harshlands wrote: »

I know it makes a very short barometer but:

When I was level 31, a 7x wizard 1-shot me 3 times at a wraith event. Each hit was over 3k, and they were non critical. I was dead before I knew I was targeted.

At the same event, a 7x wizard PK'd me 6 times. 1 time they hit a crit and I was dead with one shot. The other 5 times took an average of 5 hits each, long enough for me to run around and track the person down just before I died. Their fewest shots was 3 when they hit a crit on the third shot, most shots was 8 without crits. Their crits were in the low 2k. Regular shots ranged from 200 - 600, mostly around 300-400.

So for the PvP aspect I'd say the Wiz damage is more powerful. Most classes up through 7x have 4-digit HP bars. And if that's on a melee character weak to magic? Doom. The archer has to put in more effort, and hope for more crits, to stack the damage that a Wizard can do with one hit - blowing past charms in some cases. A 5-second channeling time doesn't matter much when it takes that charm 10 seconds to recover and a wiz's damage can take you out in two hits.

When I'm 7x I'll be more wary of the Wizards my level than the Archers. With a charm on, the archer won't be as worrisome because they'd have a harder time forcing past the charm. But the wiz? If they manage to crit on the first or second hit it probably wouldn't be too pretty.

For PvE... Dunno. Haven't gotten my archer into 2x yet but the damage speed is pretty nice. My wizard is 3x. The grinding times are fairly comparable though I've found the Archer works much better with macros

I would have to disagree your a barb and Wiz are heavy armor killers but do bad agasint other classes in PvP since pretty much every other class can almost 1 hit them while they won't do much dmg back to light or arcane classes

on the other hand archers only take mid dmg from mag and phys attacks making them harder to kill and have some mag attacks so there more versatile and overall better in PvP imo

as for the 4 digit hp thing all classes have 4 digits by then but the deffence will be higher so it'll do less dmg

Garmr - Harshlands

Prediction - Lost City wrote: »

for pve, archers are better because of fast hit rate and high damage

for pvp, any 7x would 1 hit at your lvl and archers have metals too. wizards may outdamage us in 1 hit but our damage is not ****, we can 1 hit ppl just as easily. we also don't "hope" for crits, 7x archers have around 20% crit rate

Thing is I've had 8 deaths to 7x archers and only one of those times was I a oneshot. One archer killed me in three, finishing with a 3.4k crit. The archer at the Wraith event got one oneshot in with a 2k-something crit, but hit only three other crits out of 6 more times killing me that day. (Once away from the wraith event.) The rest of the time it was 3, 5, and 8 shots to kill me - and 3 and 5 were with a crit at the end. I've been told that perhaps she wasn't dealing with me very seriously but that's what I have to go on, so I'm putting up my personal experiences for offer here in comparing the classes.

From where I'm sitting though the PvP Wizard damage for a non-crit is still greater than an Archer's normal damage. Crits or no crits, 20% is still 2/10. If you have, say, a 12k HP bar, and a Wizard is doing 3.4k damage on every hit (higher for crits), and the archer is criting every fifth hit for 2.5-3.4k .... I still say the Wizard is the Barb's Bane Even though the archer is attacking faster, you have to hit hard to make it count against the charm. And if they use skills to hit harder then the archer starts losing some of the speed advantage.

Garmr - Harshlands

AngelOfLust - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I would have to disagree your a barb and Wiz are heavy armor killers but do bad agasint other classes in PvP since pretty much every other class can almost 1 hit them while they won't do much dmg back to light or arcane classes

on the other hand archers only take mid dmg from mag and phys attacks making them harder to kill and have some mag attacks so there more versatile and overall better in PvP imo

as for the 4 digit hp thing all classes have 4 digits by then but the deffence will be higher so it'll do less dmg

I believe Barbs have a chance at 5 digit HP bars by that point, buffed. Point is everyone else is going to have 4 digit, and mages hit for 4 digits at 7x. 3k hits against a 4k-9k HP bar is far more painful, doncha think? Though it does, as you mentioned, change some depending on if the target is wearing HA, LA, or Robes. It definitely hurts more on HA

As for "best PvP class," The idea of this thread is who's the greater damage dealer, not who's the best PvPer for survivability. So I was approaching only from the Damage aspect, and yup - Wizards do nasty damage to HA wearers, which is going to include your Barbs, Blademasters, and even some experimental Venos and Wizards. (Haven't heard too much on the Winged Elf front about playing with HA.) The fact that they're a oneshot if their target spots them isn't part of this particular discussion. The Archers don't have super great HP either for that matter, all the ranged classes get gimped in the health department. And in PvP both are wearing light armor, usually. The PvP server wizards aren't switching to Robes until 8x and 9x from what I've seen.

As for Archer having physical and magical damage, that makes them better against robes. Which is limited to mostly Clerics from what I've seen. PvP wizards lean towards Light Armor, Venomancers go Light in PvP most of the time. There are the Pure types who go full magic and wear the robes, of course, but in PvP survivability is right up there with damage in importance. (IMO).

So there are a lot more HA and LA targets in the general population (PvP server!) than Robed ones, which limits the archer's shooting gallery. By comparison, the HA is a great target for the wizard, and the LA ones not too bad for either.

Brigid - Harshlands

Did any of these archers, by any chance, hit you with Lightning Strike or one of the later Metal attacks? If not, I suspect they could do far more damage with that than with normal shots.

AngelOfLust - Heavens Tear

it all depends on class your a barb so obviously a wiz does more dmg on a single hit but archers have a higher dps and I bet you the archer was only using reg attacks therefor phys

AngelOfLust - Heavens Tear

Garmr - Harshlands wrote: »

Thing is I've had 8 deaths to 7x archers and only one of those times was I a oneshot. One archer killed me in three, finishing with a 3.4k crit. The archer at the Wraith event got one oneshot in with a 2k-something crit, but hit only three other crits out of 6 more times killing me that day. (Once away from the wraith event.) The rest of the time it was 3, 5, and 8 shots to kill me - and 3 and 5 were with a crit at the end. I've been told that perhaps she wasn't dealing with me very seriously but that's what I have to go on, so I'm putting up my personal experiences for offer here in comparing the classes.

From where I'm sitting though the PvP Wizard damage for a non-crit is still greater than an Archer's normal damage. Crits or no crits, 20% is still 2/10. If you have, say, a 12k HP bar, and a Wizard is doing 3.4k damage on every hit (higher for crits), and the archer is criting every fifth hit for 2.5-3.4k .... I still say the Wizard is the Barb's Bane Even though the archer is attacking faster, you have to hit hard to make it count against the charm. And if they use skills to hit harder then the archer starts losing some of the speed advantage.

yeah your right I got a little of subject there but what I'm saying is archers can hit you like 3 times before a wiz can hit you once and not too many wiz go light and if they did it would also lower there attack

like I said before Wiz are limited to only mag attacks while archers have both phys and mag but in the end they both do good dmg and it all depends on preference

Garmr - Harshlands

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Did any of these archers, by any chance, hit you with Lightning Strike or one of the later Metal attacks? If not, I suspect they could do far more damage with that than with normal shots.

I don't think so. The second archer might have tried something a little different but I would have noticed Lightning Strike. Getting fried is a touch obvious XD

AngelOfLust - Heavens Tear wrote: »

it all depends on class your a barb so obviously a wiz does more dmg on a single hit but archers have a higher dps and I bet you the archer was only using reg attacks therefor phys

I believe the higher DPS comes partly from using Normal attacks though. I haven't pvp'd as an Archer yet (mine's only level 12), but there are still channelling times to contend with on the skills. Not as long as a wizard's, granted, but I'm noticing they don't hit as hard either. Wizard takes fewer spells in the same amount of time to kill a mob as an archer does, with more skills in use. It's close in the pre-20 levels, from my personal experience. Haven't gotten either far enough to compare in high levels.

And yeah, normal attacks from the two archers, as far as I could tell.

AngelOfLust - Heavens Tear wrote: »

yeah your right I got a little of subject there but what I'm saying is archers can hit you like 3 times before a wiz can hit you once and not too many wiz go light and if they did it would also lower there attack

like I said before Wiz are limited to only mag attacks while archers have both phys and mag but in the end they both do good dmg and it all depends on preference

Yeah, I had to pull a good couple dozen arrows out of my tiger rear 'cause of the archers, but those three oneshots by the wiz still get me. XD (In comparison, my Wizard at level 31 was killed in 3 hits by a 7x barb. Odd reversal there O.O)

I see you're on Heaven's Tear. I'd be surprised to find many Light Armor wizards there, since it's PvE with PvP as an option. Robe does hit harder, most notably in the later levels (not so much before 4x & 6x). Here on Harshlands though, Light Armor is actually the most common wizard build. Pure has its supporters but it's usually used in the highest levels, with LA for the first 40-70.

Brigid - Harshlands

Just as an example, from a recent duel with a low-30s BM, I was doing 50-60 or so with point blank regular attacks, compared to 180-200 or so with Winged Pledge and 350-400 with Lightning Strikes. Don't remember if he was LA or HA though.

I imagine those 7x archers could have taken you out with a few hits if they wanted to spend the mana.

Garmr - Harshlands

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Just as an example, from a recent duel with a low-30s BM, I was doing 50-60 or so with point blank regular attacks, compared to 180-200 or so with Winged Pledge and 350-400 with Lightning Strikes. Don't remember if he was LA or HA though.

I imagine those 7x archers could have taken you out with a few hits if they wanted to spend the mana.

Thanks for the point of reference. Yeah, they would have finished me a bit quicker if they'd been using the skills. Beats me why they didn't. Though I heard that Archers just use normal attacks for most PvP.

I would think Kill It Fast would be the way to go. But again, some ppl have said they were likely toying with me.

AngelOfLust - Heavens Tear

Garmr - Harshlands wrote: »

I see you're on Heaven's Tear. I'd be surprised to find many Light Armor wizards there, since it's PvE with PvP as an option. Robe does hit harder, most notably in the later levels (not so much before 4x & 6x). Here on Harshlands though, Light Armor is actually the most common wizard build. Pure has its supporters but it's usually used in the highest levels, with LA for the first 40-70.

thats a good point I didn't think about PvP server builds but that would make archers the better DD then since having to put points in dex it lowers there mag which lowers there dmg they will have a higher crit rate but then it'll be the same as archers critting on you for like 2k