Lets Put this Crystalline Magmite Myth to Rest!

tweakz

I followed a lot of stupid advice given and parroted on this forum, and I've probably given some by mistake but I try. I'm also willing to learn. If I find I'm wrong about this: I'll add a disclaimer to this post at the beginning.

Let's see if we can pull out of this rut of claiming the "Crystalline Magmite is the best non legendary tank" ****...'k?

From: http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/petstat.php

Name ::::::::::::::::: HP Atk P.def M.def Acc. Dodge Atk/s m/s
Jaden Qingfu :::::::: 2986 2137 7758 6565 1838 1021 0.8 6.5
Crystalline Magmite 2934 3240 8792 5861 1354 1003 0.6 6.2

Now looking at M.def, we see that the Qinfu has a 704 M.def point advantage over the Magmite, but is under on P.def by a whopping *sarcasm* 1034. The Qinfu is also ahead of the Magmite in HP by 52.

The arguments are that P.def is more important and that mobs and bosses switch to melee or physical when attacked. However, some of us with ranged pets (see: Why Should Veno's Have a Ranged Pet? )have seen that fighting some bosses in range mode cuts down on damage significantly by taking the physical out of the equation! (Now there's a whole other argument for why an Eldergoth Marksman could be a better tank than a Magmite). When a boss switches to melee, contrary to what some suggest: it often adds it to the attacks rather than replacing magic with it.

Anyone that's tried soloing a solo mode TT 1-1 has probably failed with a Magmite when it first becomes available. -Strange that the most commonly recommended tanker could fail on such a monumental boss such as Chintien! Let's look at Chintien's stats and see why...

From: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/14727
Physical Attack: 1228 - 3684
Magic Attack: 1842 - 5525

-Is the answer not obvious?

How about Lord of Percussion: Chronol?
From: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/14728
Physical Attack: 1588 - 4763
Magic Attack: 2381 - 7144

It seems that every boss I've looked up has either an equivalent amount of Mag Attack as it's Physical or more... up to 4x more!

Ok, now we may say to ourselves, but the Magmite hits harder! One thing I've noticed is that the right skills can make just about any pet a good grinding pet. For instance: You can compensate for a weak hitting pet by giving it Howl, but when it comes to tanking you just can't build on pooh. You also can't compensate much for the speed of the pet. If you're ambushed by a mob while your magmite is attacking another, it's going to be the last pet to come to your rescue. A ranged pet on the other hand often wouldn't even have to move.

This thread's purpose is not to show that the Qinfu is the best non legendary tanker (I doubt it is.. just was the first alternative I looked at). There are many other pets that are better, and some better in some instances than others. It's funny how we've all been fooled into putting this ugly, bulky, slow pet on a pedestal. Many of us sadly have spent close to a quarter of what a Hercules cost on upgrading their Magmite.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

It seems that every boss I've looked up has either an equivalent amount of Mag Attack as it's Physical or more... up to 4x more!

Just because the database shows they have a physical or magical attack doesn't mean they use it. Hercule Trioc is listed as having a physical attack score. I've killed him probably close to 200 times. I've never seen him do anything other than a magical attack.

Generally, the early mobs you fight are all-physical with a few magical ones tossed in. Many of the early magical mobs (spiders, ghouls) use poison, which won't do much magical damage anyway (at least not to a magmite - its mag def score will still be way higher than yours at those levels). Bosses excepted, it's not until the 40s and 50s when you start running into the mixed melee-magic mobs. A magmite will perform the best up to that point, so I agree with its recommendation as an initial tanking pet (even though I hate the thing).

Hopefully by the time you're into your 50s, you will be well on your way to saving for a herc, thus making this whole issue moot. If not, you should at least have enough coin to level up some skills. Aside from bosses, most of the mobs will remain at least mostly physical with only the occasional magical attack thrown in. So the magmite's low mag def is not a game-ender.

All that said, this game is easy enough that you can make pretty much any pet work on regular mobs. The question of magmite or something else will be of interest to the min-maxers, but for everyone else I recommend just finding a pet you enjoy playing with - whatever makes the game more fun for you. Once you get to your late 40s or 50s and the long grinding for exp starts, then things can get taxing and you may wish to consider min-maxing. But up til then, you can just do whatever you find to be fun.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

I would just like to know are you taking in on upgrading skill or from lvl as tamed.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

What makes the CMag the best is the combination of all things, including attack. The bread and butter of this game is physical mobs. very few do magic damage when in melee range.
The antelup pup is pretty much the oposite of the golem, when it comes to defense, so if you have both you can just switch between the two as needed.
If you looking at overall pure tanking (no damage taken into consideration), than cub/armored bear would be best, even if their damage is a little on the low side.

So, by the time you factor in that the CMag has 1100 more pdef, and 1003 more damage, you still come ahead even if you deduct the 700 MDef and the 52 HP. Unless you fighting pure magic mobs, at which point both would get in trouble and you should grab a magic tank, like a antelup pup or frog.

Only other pet that could take over would be the Eldergoth sharpshooter/marksman. The attack is high as well, the defense is ok, the speed is ok, and on top of that, it has ranged attacks, which open all new posibilities.

tweakz

Bosses excepted, it's not until the 40s and 50s when you start running into the mixed melee-magic mobs.

Why else would we want a "best tanking" pet? Just about any other pet would be sufficient for the regular mobs.

Isala - Sanctuary

If you're looking for a relatively decent expendable magic tank, get yourself an Undine from FB59. They have Tough, and Threaten, which compensates for their weak physical defense, while allowing them to have much better Mag. Def than a Golem. Or, you can use my second choice, and current Mag tank, which is a Huggy Hare. Equal Mag and Phys Def, and Shriek to stop spells. They even have decent HP. Less Mag Def than an Undine, but quite a bit more than a Magmite. Note that neither of these have the booming power of a Magmite, though. So, your pet might lose aggro, unless you improvise, and give them more than just their natural attack skills.

However, your guess about a good tank, tweakz, was actually more correct than you think. It's really yet to be proven, but there are rumors that the Qingfu is one of the best tanking pets endgame. No attack power, granted, but the fact that you get it from level 1, and it has a higher speed and attack speed than a golem does make it a good candidate.

Regardless, I'm still sticking to my Magmite. Even if he isn't an uber tank, he still does what I need him for. Grab aggro, hold onto it, and not die. But isn't that the fun of Venos? We have so many choices available to us. I once saw some Venos run an FB39 beside me, one using a Snow Hare, and one using a Tabby Plumdrop. And we didn't lose either, even to the exploding mobs, which nearly took out our barbs.

volst

I don't really see why any of these matters. Use what you want. Are you so afraid of being called an idiot by people that you would need to do all of this stuff? If it works for them, then leave it alone.

tweakz

volst wrote: »

I don't really see why any of these matters. Use what you want. Are you so afraid of being called an idiot by people that you would need to do all of this stuff? If it works for them, then leave it alone.

The decision determines your limitations. Many are led to believe they can tank more bosses with a magmite than any other common pet.

Leolf - Heavens Tear

*roarous applause* JADEN QINGFU FOR THE WIIIIIN!!!!!!!!! b:pleased You're all just jealous of us Venos with these truly one of a kind pets. You wish your magmites had those dashing little scales and adorable, enormous pink reptillian eyes b:shocked I really gotta get mine an attack skill so I can actually quest with it...
>.>
<.<

Mothergoose - Sanctuary

Magmite is the grinding tank, it's not meant to tank tt bosses. I tried Jaden Qingfu ages ago. Looking at pet stats is the first thing I did when making a veno. From first hand experience, it just doesn't work. It can't hold aggro, and you'll have to pause attack when grinding.

tweakz

Magmite is the grinding tank, it's not meant to tank tt bosses. I tried Jaden Qingfu ages ago. Looking at pet stats is the first thing I did when making a veno. From first hand experience, it just doesn't work. It can't hold aggro, and you'll have to pause attack when grinding.

I have a Varicose Scorpion (best land dps pet that we're aware of) that I put Claw, Flesh Ream, and Bash on. I can go through grinding mobs faster with my Eldergoth Marksman using Howl. The only pet I've found that makes a significant difference in kill speed based on DPS is the Phoenix. The Armored Bear has much worse atk /dps than the Qingfu yet it can hold aggro sufficiently for efficient grinding if your technique is right.

Anyway the purpose in many of our eyes of having a "tank" pet is to tank bosses. Any pet can be used to grind with.

Alphae - Lost City

A beetle will have a heap o' trouble holding aggro in 90% of situations (that is to say, non ? bosses). Tanking TT is very limited with ANY pet except a herc, which is disappointing but true.

tweakz

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

A beetle will have a heap o' trouble holding aggro in 90% of situations (that is to say, non ? bosses). Tanking TT is very limited with ANY pet except a herc, which is disappointing but true.

This is so far off. -Sarcasm?

Alphae - Lost City

Unless you're willing to put herc buffs on a non-herc pet, at which point you could have saved time (if not money) buying the herc...

It's common sense to me... if the beetle has lower attack than both the herc and magmite, and neither herc or magmite can hold aggro against squads on non ? bosses... Unless you're talking about SOLOING bosses, in which case my point is invalid and the beetle tanks just fine.

tweakz

The only herc buff that helps with aggro is reflect, and that's totally dependent on the mob it's fighting. Pounce (not a buff) would help, but that's typically sacrificed for Bash for better aggro.

It's common sense to me... if the beetle has lower attack than both the herc and magmite, and neither herc or magmite can hold aggro against squads on non ? bosses...

Common sense is the problem we're facing in this forum. People also think the fastest pet makes for the best lurer, when it doesn't. -Common sense fails! In TT boss fights, there's heavy damage reduction for everyone EXCEPT pets. If aggro were based soley on DPS, pets would be almost impractical to use. Barbs aren't considered DD's, they kill slowly, but they have skills which help them hold aggro. The situation is the same for pets: using pet skills help's a pet hold aggro. -Even Slow! The higher level the pet skill, the more aggro generation.

Technique:
When it comes to technique, many people heal their pet as soon as they finish one mob, then look for the next mob to attack. What they should do is target the next mob, send the pet after it with a non default skill attack while they either lay the finishing nuke the first mob or start their first hit (venemous or ironwood scarab) on the next mob with noxious gas for the second hit (to finish first mob off). While the pet is on it's way to the next mob, is the time to heal it. This gives the pet time to build aggro using 2 skills. If you wanna run around just pressing your macro button while using auto attack, then maybe you want a boring old magmite.

Unless you're talking about SOLOING bosses, in which case my point is invalid and the beetle tanks just fine.

Even if we're talking about squad vs solo on tanking bosses, I'd rather have a solid tank that could survive than one that died and made a party wipe my fault. If someone steals aggro, it's on them. Most of the time, it's a waste for you to tank bosses for others anyway. Give me just 2x as much time in a TT squad mode alone, and I walk out with 6x as much as with a squad.

Alphae - Lost City

Exactly, it's a waste of time for you to tank bosses in a squad when a barb could do much better and your pet holds aggro tenuously at best with heavy DDs behind you, and crit could easily cause squad wipe.

So, I assume you're talking about tanking bosses solo. THEN, my point is invalid. Beetle tanks just fine in those situations. I've never used one personally, but I know there are people that do, and I've heard that for soloing they're quite comparable to the magmite, except for the lower damage.

Other than that, I'm not really sure what your reply to my post actually has to do with my post.

DollParts - Sanctuary

Bash #1

People keep talking about the lower attack of the Qingfu. It is really not as bad as it looks since the Qingfu has a higher attack rate much like the herc. The hercs attack is lower than a Mag's as well, but it does its dmg at a higher rate just like the Qingfu. Anyways.. without bash all these pets would just be running behind whatever your trying to kill. Qingfu i have on a alt veno and i love it. It has bash and does not have a problem holding threat. Qingfu in my opinion is the better tank with its higher mdef. The Mag really shows its weakness against magic mobs.

tweakz

Leolf - Heavens Tear wrote: »

*roarous applause* JADEN QINGFU FOR THE WIIIIIN!!!!!!!!! b:pleased You're all just jealous of us Venos with these truly one of a kind pets. You wish your magmites had those dashing little scales and adorable, enormous pink reptillian eyes b:shocked I really gotta get mine an attack skill so I can actually quest with it...
>.>
<.<

Lol!

Sorry to burst the bubble, but I think the Eldergoth Marksman is the best common pet tank in the game.



-That's my marksman at lvl 84 taking on a lvl 91 FB boss. The neat thing is that a light armor veno could maybe pull this off since there isn't a lot of MP needing replacing all at once.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Let's see if we can pull out of this rut of claiming the "Crystalline Magmite is the best non legendary tank" ****...'k?

I snipped everything else because....it's meaningless because the Magmites are the best non-legendary Physical Tank. Hell, they are the standard other Physical Tank pets are measured by.


In short, no matter how much you want to deny this, they are simply one of the best physical tanks you don't have to spend a lot of money/coin on to acquire.

tweakz

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I snipped everything else because....it's meaningless because the Magmites are the best non-legendary Physical Tank. Hell, they are the standard other Physical Tank pets are measured by.


In short, no matter how much you want to deny this, they are simply one of the best physical tanks you don't have to spend a lot of money/coin on to acquire.

Did I say they weren't the best free physical tank? The argument is that magic defense is as much or more important for a tank in this game. How many more bosses can a magmite tank than other free pet at the same level?

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Did I say they weren't the best free physical tank? The argument is that magic defense is as much or more important for a tank in this game. How many more bosses can a magmite tank than other free pet at the same level?

In order to put the myth that the golems were the best for tanking magic mobs someone would have to actually make that claim, and, to the best of my knowledge, no one has.

What people have said is the golem is the best tamable physical tanking pet. People have not said it is the end all, be all tanking pet for both magic and physical, but they have said that against magic mobs it takes more healing because of it's low magic defense.

In short, this thread serves no purpose because your opening argument is about something that was never said or something that even exists (the golem myth).

I once created a thread with the title "The 1% Crit arrow myth" because there really was such a myth. This isn't the case with the golems. Everyone pretty much already acknowledges their strengths and weaknesses as true, and acts accordingly.

Laranda - Heavens Tear

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In order to put the myth that the golems were the best for tanking magic mobs someone would have to actually make that claim, and, to the best of my knowledge, no one has.

Aye.

I've never seen anyone say that. Even pre-herc, the logic was golem for physical, another (antelope pup usually) for magic. As far as people went was "Golem's hp is high enough that they can survive a magic attack."

Alphae - Lost City

Furthermore, the reason the phrase "golem is the best phys tank" often has the "phys" left out is that very rarely do you find a boss/mob that ONLY uses magic. At most it's using magic every 3-4 attacks, which can easily be healed around.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear

With the addition of genies, the Magmite is the best non-legendary tank. You can cancel at least 50% of the magic attacks thrown at your pet with Lightning Chaser thus lessening the need for high magic defense. You cannot however stun bosses so your pet will get hammered with physical attacks. Thus physical defense is much more vital than magic defense.

tweakz

Nonsense: Those magical hits that get mixed with physical are what can kill your golem which is what limits it's tanking ability. You aren't canceling 100% of them and it shouldn't need help from a genie (which costs per use). I don't see anyone telling us what boss or bosses a Golem can tank that a Qingu can't here.

Dioica - Sanctuary

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I snipped everything else because....it's meaningless because the Magmites are the best non-legendary Physical Tank. Hell, they are the standard other Physical Tank pets are measured by.

I am afraid I must disagree with you OMG.

b:mischievous

Your sentence would be true if we just understood your real point -- but if we were going to just understand your point without you actually making your point, maybe you should not need to be bothering with making your point? Anyways, you did not include enough qualifiers to make your point accurate: Abysmal Turtles are the best non-legendary physical close-range tank pets in this game.

Edit: and I also have to agree with tweakz -- I am not seeing anyone naming any bosses which a veno can solo with a magmite but not with a qingfu.

Leonnator - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

Nonsense: Those magical hits that get mixed with physical are what can kill your golem which is what limits it's tanking ability. You aren't canceling 100% of them and it shouldn't need help from a genie (which costs per use). I don't see anyone telling us what boss or bosses a Golem can tank that a Qingu can't here.

It can't cuz like most players bosses are also affected by the myth so they either: refuse to fight or die from laughingb:chuckle

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Nonsense: Those magical hits that get mixed with physical are what can kill your golem which is what limits it's tanking ability. You aren't canceling 100% of them and it shouldn't need help from a genie (which costs per use). I don't see anyone telling us what boss or bosses a Golem can tank that a Qingu can't here.

That's why players use MAGIC tanks for those bosses a golem cannot handle. I.E: Antelope Pup, Oddfoot Pup, Frog, Carapest Terror, etc.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Did I say they weren't the best free physical tank? The argument is that magic defense is as much or more important for a tank in this game. How many more bosses can a magmite tank than other free pet at the same level?

No one said it was the best for tanking magic only bosses. Ever. They've said they either use magic tanks or heal the golem more.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Nonsense: Those magical hits that get mixed with physical are what can kill your golem which is what limits it's tanking ability. You aren't canceling 100% of them and it shouldn't need help from a genie (which costs per use). I don't see anyone telling us what boss or bosses a Golem can tank that a Qingu can't here.

Most bosses use a magic attack for every 3-4 physical attacks. Add in the fact that you CAN cancel 50% of the incoming magic attacks and you get a magic attack every 8 physical attacks. Plus, magic attacks take time to channel which gives you more time to react and heal. As long as the magic attack doesn't one hit your pet, you can heal around it. In your original post, you said that the beetle has 700 more magic def and 1000 less physical def. I'd rather have the extra physical defense to deal with the constant physical attacks rather than a little more magic defense for that magic attack I can heal around.

The question isn't what bosses a mag can tank that a beetle can't. It's whether the beetle can tank bosses BETTER than a magmite.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In order to put the myth that the golems were the best for tanking magic mobs someone would have to actually make that claim, and, to the best of my knowledge, no one has.

What people have said is the golem is the best tamable physical tanking pet. People have not said it is the end all, be all tanking pet for both magic and physical, but they have said that against magic mobs it takes more healing because of it's low magic defense.

In short, this thread serves no purpose because your opening argument is about something that was never said or something that even exists (the golem myth).

I once created a thread with the title "The 1% Crit arrow myth" because there really was such a myth. This isn't the case with the golems. Everyone pretty much already acknowledges their strengths and weaknesses as true, and acts accordingly.

I have some of those 1% critical bonus arrows.. from FB 79