Pet Questions x_x

Zyhara - Sanctuary

Hello everyone! Ignore that stupid avatar, as I am not a gross bald BM.

Anyhoo, I'm level 31 and I am sort of wondering where to go with pets here, so bare with me! My current pets are;
LVL 30 Crystalline Magmite (Keeping, no brainer)
LVL 21 Tabby Plumdrop (^_^ My guilty pleasure, don't question it XD)
LVL 21 Mutant Whirler Turtle (Only got to beat Elder Tortois)
LVL 28 Goldwing Emperor

And then my last spot is my mount.

Anyways, the last two are the ones I am wondering about. I have read up the stats on the Goldwing and the Petite, but I'm wanting opinions. Is the difference in stats so major that it will end up biting my in the butt later? Should I stop and take the time to lvl up the Petite Sawfly, or should I just go with the Goldwing I have already?

As for water pets, what do you recommend? I have heard people say just get one when you need one, but I also know that some people have perm. water pets. So, can anyone recommend what to do when it comes to water pets? Will I ever really really need one? Any perks to having one?

Thanks so much in advance XD

tweakz

Goldwing is faster which could mean it draws aggro from you faster in a pinch. The atk is so close you probably won't feel the difference. It's not like you can tank bosses with either of these flying pets. Either will probably be replaced by a Phoenix soon enough that investing in upgraded skills for a sawfly would be a waste when they come with other flying pets. Here you can compare their level 90 stats for yourself and see the Emperor actually has significantly better m.def: http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/petstat.php making it wise choice to roll with until the next better flying pet is available.

Water pets are indeed disposable until level 80. The stats on a raised turtle aren't significantly better than a Celestial Plumpfish, and the fish is faster and smaller. You can't gain rep while leveling a turtle either. There are some who would like to have the absolute best water tank available, and that would be a turtle raised from level 5, but I see no use for it.

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary

The sawfly atack compared to the Goldwing at lvl 90:

Petite Sawfly[8]: 3297
Goldenwing Emperor[28]: 2943
Crystalline Magmite[18]: 3240

If you are asking yourself why have i posted the Magmite damage too, here is the answer: at one lvl lower, the sawly hit a bit harder then the magmite, and look at the attack difference. Now just immagine the difference between sawfly and goldwing at same lvl.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Water pets are not disposable..... Just not as convinient to level.
So if you want the easy way and do not care much about water pets, jsut get them as you go.
If you like your turtle, keep it, it will still have the most HP, attack and pdef of any pet out there. The Mdef is a little lower, but its pdef is much higher.
If speed is not a priority for you, get a legged undine (for high mdef), or fin undine (more balanced medf and pdef), their attacks will be lower than turtle but higher than merpeople.
If your main priority is a ver fast water pet, get a merperson once you reach the 50s. They have lower attack than the undine, the pdef and mdef are comparable to the undine (a little less mdef than legged, and a little less pdef than finned), but it is much. much, much faster.

awesomeexpress

replace magmite for shaodu cub (my favorite pet) and goldwing for petite sawfly

Shaodu has higher defence so you can tank and sawfly has better stats than goldwing. If you can get some extra money for an extra cage get a damage dealer like a scorpion.

tweakz

awesomeexpress wrote: »

sawfly has better stats than goldwing.

Goldwing Lv.90
Mdef: 6367
Speed: 9.2
Dodge: 1288

Petite Sawfly Lv.90
Mdef: 5921
Speed: 8.8
Dodge: 1215

awesomeexpress

no way i was sure it was better.
guess its time to get a goldwing :P

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

sawfly has the better attack, thats all that matters, hence why it is a choice PVP pet for non phoenix owners. mag def, speed, and dodge dont really mean ****

tweakz

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

The sawfly atack compared to the Goldwing at lvl 90:

Petite Sawfly[8]: 3297
Goldenwing Emperor[28]: 2943
Crystalline Magmite[18]: 3240

If you are asking yourself why have i posted the Magmite damage too, here is the answer: at one lvl lower, the sawly hit a bit harder then the magmite, and look at the attack difference. Now just immagine the difference between sawfly and goldwing at same lvl.

I imagine most people use Sawfly's on mobs near their level, and many are concerned about how many of their hits it takes to kill with the assistance of a pet. Ironwood Scarab, and Lucky Scarab both take 2.3s to channel and cast (without -channeling), so for 2 hits, we have about a 4.6s window which leaves room for 7-8 hits from the pet if they start and stop at the same time to achieve a 2 hit kill.

354 is difference per hit, 2714 is the damage difference in the 4.6s time frame. But, we're leaving something out: Speed. The Emporer is going to reach it's targets faster, so lets consider that it may get one extra hit in, and that hit would be: 2943 which is greater than the damage difference.

Any - Channeling gear would create yet a greater advantage for the Emporer in this situation.

Another thing to consider is debuffs. An Emporer can lay a debuff (like Howl for up to -36% mag def reduction) on it's targets faster than a sawfly. If your first hit is before your pets (more likely with the sawfly), then you miss that -def opportunity on that hit.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

I imagine most people use Sawfly's on mobs near their level, and many are concerned about how many of their hits it takes to kill with the assistance of a pet. Ironwood Scarab, and Lucky Scarab both take 2.3s to channel and cast (without -channeling), so for 2 hits, we have about a 4.6s window which leaves room for 7-8 hits from the pet if they start and stop at the same time to achieve a 2 hit kill.

354 is difference per hit, 2714 is the damage difference in the 4.6s time frame. But, we're leaving something out: Speed. The Emporer is going to reach it's targets faster, so lets consider that it may get one extra hit in, and that hit would be: 2943 which is greater than the damage difference.

Any - Channeling gear would create yet a greater advantage for the Emporer in this situation.

Another thing to consider is debuffs. An Emporer can lay a debuff (like Howl for up to -36% mag def reduction) on it's targets faster than a sawfly. If your first hit is before your pets (more likely with the sawfly), then you miss that -def opportunity on that hit.

That speed is not really relevant unless you only hunt at max range, more often than not, you are much closer than max spell range, therefore the speed difference really is negligeble. Also the little extra mdef will not save you from anything... if you talking multi-target tanking, than you have to pretty much sacrify all your hope for damage and go with a piggy, which is by far a far supperior multi-mob tank.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

I imagine most people use Sawfly's on mobs near their level, and many are concerned about how many of their hits it takes to kill with the assistance of a pet. Ironwood Scarab, and Lucky Scarab both take 2.3s to channel and cast (without -channeling), so for 2 hits, we have about a 4.6s window which leaves room for 7-8 hits from the pet if they start and stop at the same time to achieve a 2 hit kill.

The Sawfly does 0.6 attacks per second (I assume the Emperor is the same), which is one attack every 1.6667 seconds. So in 4.6 seconds, the pet will only have time for 2.76 attacks.

But, we're leaving something out: Speed. The Emporer is going to reach it's targets faster, so lets consider that it may get one extra hit in, and that hit would be: 2943 which is greater than the damage difference.

If you start from max Ironwood range (25.5m at level 10), the Emperor will reach the mob in (25.5/8.8) - (25.5/9.2) = 0.126 seconds sooner. At 1.667 seconds per attack, the Emperor will only have about 7.5% of the time needed to carry out an extra attack.

Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds, so I doubt you'll notice the speed difference.

tweakz

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The Sawfly does 0.6 attacks per second (I assume the Emperor is the same), which is one attack every 1.6667 seconds. So in 4.6 seconds, the pet will only have time for 2.76 attacks.

Caught me with some bad math again, -ty!. Appears the correction shows even more favor to the Emporer.

If you start from max Ironwood range (25.5m at level 10), the Emperor will reach the mob in (25.5/8.8) - (25.5/9.2) = 0.126 seconds sooner. At 1.667 seconds per attack, the Emperor will only have about 7.5% of the time needed to carry out an extra attack.

Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds, so I doubt you'll notice the speed difference.

Noticing it, and it making the difference in damage or hits per kill are separate beasts. If that's what you meant, lets look at the numbers and figure out what chance the sawfly has of reducing the amount of hits per kill over the Emporer with the 2.76 attacks.

I think the difference in atk is negligible, and hate to think of people trashing their Emporers for a Sawfly because someone on here said it had the best stats (which it doesn't), and go through the trouble of leveling one or buying one that's leveled. They may even invest in skills for it when that investment would counter their savings for a Phoenix.

Here's the default skills difference to take into account also:
Goldwing
Bash Lv.2
Toxic Mist Lv.2

Sawfly
Bash Lv.1
Toxic Mist Lv.1

-A savings of 400k (If tame books are bought from NPC).

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary

I tested both, i like the looks of Goldwing better but had to drop it in favor of Sawfly.

Do you only do the math that proves your theories and leave out the rest?

Also, Sawfly has 4 higher stats then Goldenwing from a total of seven. The Goldenwing has the rest of three higher. The normal questions is: depending on your playstyle and preferences, which stats matter the most to you?

And boy am I going to abandon threads where you post!
You seem to end up posting for the sake of it and of arguing. Are you simply trying to raise your post count? Good luck and Have fun with that. When i think i once liked you... I am ashamed.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

They may even invest in skills for it when that investment would counter their savings for a Phoenix.

If you are using this to argue, than what is the point? All pets become disposablel, according to you, and you will be tossing your goldwing as soon as you can tame a higher level fly or foxwing anyway, until you get the phoenix.

If you talking about which one is the best one, than you would have to compare them with the same skills. The sawfly, as posted, does have 4 of its stats higher than the goldwing, so it may come down to playing styles.... Do you like to send your pet around, getting aggro and tanking the ranged magic attacks as you work on one target at the time (maybe 2), or do you like to 1 v 1 on air mobs, and be able to survive the odd add you may get?

None of the flies are that good at tanking to start with, if you talking tanking, there is only one option, and that is a piggy, even though it has an horrible attack.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Noticing it, and it making the difference in damage or hits per kill are separate beasts. If that's what you meant, lets look at the numbers and figure out what chance the sawfly has of reducing the amount of hits per kill over the Emporer with the 2.76 attacks.

That gets into discrete sampling theory, which I've resisted getting into because it can be highly sensitive to start times. You can integrate the outcomes over a spectrum of probable start times to come up with an average answer. But because the sampling is discrete (the damage comes in chunks instead of a constant rate), the average is not necessarily representative of the entire solution space. If you change the starting conditions slightly, the other option may be better. It's not like continuous distributions where you can identify a distinct trade-off point, and above it one option is better, below it the other option is better. The answer to "which is best" can flip-flop repeatedly.

Bleh, that reads like an engineering textbook. Lemme show you a picture. Take the case of a magmite vs. herc, no skills. Magmite does one attack every 1.67 sec @ 3240 damage. The herc does one attack every 1.25 sec @ 2672 damage. If you plot their accumulated damage over time:



Both start at 0 damage. As time passes (go from left to right), the herc jumps ahead, then the magmite, then the herc, then magmite again, then the herc finally pulls ahead for the last time. Against a mob with 3000 hp, the magmite kills it first. If the mob has 5000 hp, the herc will kill it first. But if the mob has 6000 hp the magmite kills it first again. And if the mob has 7000 hp the herc kills it first again. The answer to "which is best" changes multiple times, and varies depending on the specific circumstances.

Now imagine adding skills to this plot (making some steps higher) and varying the start times due to the different running speeds of the two pets (shifting one of the lines left or right). They're going to flip flop back and forth a lot, and the flipping points are going to be highly sensitive to the exact timing of the skills or slight differences due to running speeds. It's a big mess and probably not worth calculating it out that way. About the only case that's interesting is if you plot herc vs. golem with bash and figure out how long it takes the herc to once and for all out-damage the golem.

Brael - Dreamweaver

You have me tempted to make a spreadsheet to calculate everything out now to see just where the break points are that a faster but lower average dps pet will never beat a slower but stronger one. By using a spreadsheet skills could easily be included. Well, if I make one I'll post it up here (or a graph built from a sheet, one of the two).

Edit: I made a spreadsheet, the instructions are simple. Download it here.

On Sheet 1 insert the pet stats for distance to target, pet name, attack, attack/sec, speed, and attack damage... not as a percent (155%=155) along with attack reuses. Time to engage and Delay will both be calculated.

Sheet 2 is all calculations, you can ignore it if you want. Or you can check it for a mistake I made. The actual columns on this sheet are base time, modified time for each pet (base time minus time to engage, minimum of 0), and a cumulative listing of melee damage and each damage skill you placed on the pets (note, the sheet won't support dots properly right now... I would suggest giving it the damage per tick with a recast of 3... that might work).

Sheet 3 is the results. Time is since you tell the pet to attack, so real time rather than modified. Column B is the first pets combined damage until that point. Column C is the second pets combined damage until that point. Column D will tell you who the winner is, at that interval. If you want to see the point where one pet will never outdamage the other pet, copy column D into a text editor, goto the bottom of the file, and hit find, searching up for the other pet (if pet 2 is winning at the end search pet 1), and that will tell you where... you might want to copy time time column too for that though. Column E will tell you how much the winning pet is winning by, and Column F will tell you what damage per second the winning pet is winning by.

The default pets that are in the comparison are a Goldenwing Emperor and Petite Sawfly with default skills at level 90 as that's relevant to this conversation. If you dont know how to use a spreadsheet, the results are that after a 30 second fight the Petite Sawfly will win by 7474 damage or 249.13 dps. The times when a Goldenwing Emperor will win are at 4.5 seconds (2943 damage), 6.2 seconds (2589 damage), 7.8 seconds (2235 damage), 9.5 seconds (1881 damage), and so on. The longer the fight goes, the lower the spike is where the emperor will win, and the further apart they get. The last time the Emperor will win is at 42.8 seconds. This is with a 25.5 distance to start, so my conclusion is that in order for speed to provide a significant advantage the gaps need to be larger.

Comparing with a herc and magmite at level 90, magmite with level 5 bash/sandblow, herc with level 5 bash, with a distance to target of 15 meters (minimizing the hercs speed advantage, and 25 meter runs to the next mob aren't that common) the herc will kill faster from 3.2-4 seconds, 4.4-10.4 seconds, and 17.9-18.4 seconds. In all other time ranges the magmite will be superior damage.

Hopefully this ends the debate, though I do recognize these results are slightly flawed as it's assuming instant cast skills, with skills casting simultaneously, however those can't be compensated for without a more detailed understanding of how long they take to cast and how pet melee interacts with them.