Genie Aggro AoE

Kohattorix - Sanctuary

So if the new genie grants a BM the AoE aggro (added that streamstrike creates aggro too) can a vit build BM act like a proper main tank? (I mean it has enough HP and almost the same pdef as a barb and more mdef and if BM can hold aggro would you let him be the main tank in a party?)

Voices - Lost City

BMs do NOT have enough HP to tank as well as a barb in every case.

Bashusilly - Heavens Tear

I think the real question is not if a BM can tank in every instance, A BM will never be able to compete with the Tanking ability of a Barb, But, in some instances A BM will do, but lacks The needed aggro skill to hold aggro off a real DD. I have experienced this plenty of times in the past, where, I have the HP and Def to handle tanking, say, an FB19 Boss (being a level 60+ BM) with no issues but My archer friend hits the boss once and the boss goes after him, even if I counter with Stream strike.

If there is a Genie skill that offers a stronger aggro Bm's may be able to step in, in certain situations like that.

An instance comes to mind when me and a group of cleric and 2 archers took on kimsa....I could not keep aggro at all, with the cleric, I had all I needed to stay alive, but could not keep the archers alive due to the damage they dealt.

Lareish - Harshlands

When it comes down to tanking for, say, an FB, sometimes the skill and experience of the Tanker matters more than whether s/he is a Barb or BM, and their stats.

It takes actions and not just stats to hold mob aggro, and a BM who knows how to do this properly can work well, better in some cases than a Barb who has the right stats but doesn't know how to properly collect the Aggro from *every* mob.

Now, having the stats to live through all that aggro is important. Having a Cleric to assist you with that is even better. But if your stats are right, and the Cleric is there, but the Tank (BM or Barb) did NOT get aggro on EVERY mob... the Cleric will die because as soon as they heal the Tank, the extra mobs will come after the Cleric due to heal aggro. And if the cleric dies, the party will probably follow in a wipe.

Voices - Lost City

I see your point Bashusilly.

In that case it would depend on several factors, the last of which would be the physical ability to survive (HP).

A few factors come to mind, such as the genie skill itself (aggro holding ability of the skill), and the attributes of the mob being tanked. I agree that it's not good to generalize and disregard skill, but it's also a bad idea to liberally throw out tanks simply because of one genie skill (assuming that tanking is the lifeblood and purpose of barbs).

It is true that a BM with skills can already hold aggro in many instances, but I am not sure if the genie will actually allow for a better aggro to be held. Until this can be determined, it is easy to say that it is too early to tell.

I suppose that it's also exciting to see whether BM's may be optioned to tank something but if it did come down to one factor that could be generalized to all BMs and conservatively estimated, that factor would probably be Stats (HP) + Skills.

XAsch - Sanctuary

Voices - Lost City wrote: »

BMs do NOT have enough HP to tank as well as a barb in every case.

I have 11k HP (with buffs) and without shards on my pants, boots, or gloves, and only refined to +4. I'm not a VIT BM, so I could get quite a bit more if I pumped alot of VIT. So how can't VIT BM's have enough HP to tank? If I sharded my equipment, +6 it like I'm meant to, get my 5% HP necklace, I'm gonna break over 12.5k hp easily. That's easily enough to tank with Marrow's, considering you can break 20k pdef, and 6k mdef with marrow's.

True, it's impossible to hold aggro from Veno's (Herc's) or Archer's inside Instances, which is why Barb's are needed, but overall tanking can easily be done by a BM. I don't see why people have problems with that.

Voices - Lost City

.....not everyone has your gear

Bashusilly - Heavens Tear

And My point was just that, that The level of defense and Hp is not always a concern for BM's, in many instances we have more than enough to do the job, just lacking the skills needed to hold true aggro. If the genie skill can truly hold aggro I think it would make a capable BM's job much easier. But, in the same breath, you may hear many people complaining that the skill is useless because we are not tanks.

I am completely in the mindset we are capable tanks if we know how to play our toons right.

Cgl_ifrit - Harshlands

Voices - Lost City wrote: »

.....not everyone has your gear

true

.....

XAsch - Sanctuary

Voices - Lost City wrote: »

.....not everyone has your gear

When you responded, you grouped BMs as a generalization. Saying we, as a whole, meaning every BM, can't have as much HP as a Barb "in every case". Tiger Form gives Barb's an advantage, sure, but I've seen alot of Barb's with average gear having only 13-14k HP, which could be broken rather easily by a BM with high VIT.

Just pointing it out.

Voices - Lost City

To the same point, couldn't ANYONE with enough HP tank anything? After all, barbs and bms are only effective against physical mobs (even if they encompass most of the bosses in the game) unless you enjoy hitting the marrow button every 30 seconds. But then with this skill and HP gear, even a heavy armor fox could be an effective tank, and with bramble they might be more effective. Indeed, if they wanted they could switch between heavy armor and arcane for magic tanking.

Voices - Lost City wrote: »

I suppose that it's also exciting to see whether BM's may be optioned to tank something but if it did come down to one factor that could be generalized to all BMs and conservatively estimated, that factor would probably be Stats (HP) + Skills.

If BM's can always tank just as well as Barbs, why roll a barb in the first place? The prospect of rolling a Vit build BM raises an eye, when you can just play a class that supports having that much HP.

I'm obviously being conservative, and saying that one genie skill is probably not going to break a class, though it might enhance BMs. But this is exactly what people are expecting of genies--they are expecting them to enhance the game, not break it.

I am not disagreeing with other posts that say that BMs could possibly tank well. I am pointing out that if there were an ultimate limiting factor (assuming that the Genie skill works for keeping aggro) then HP would be it. The "in every case" is the key phrase that makes this discussion fragile.

Devablade - Sanctuary

edit : bah forget it

As for bm tanking.. we can tank as easily as a barb depending on the boss. give a bm bramble in TT he will hold agroe as much as a barb or a herc( without skills). Bramble alone is what keeps agroe most of the time.

deryckatlanta

this is late...but i think your missing the point voices. there is not always a barb available at all times to everyone. if there is a barb close to the level of the bm in the party, then of course people are going to opt for the barb to tank. but if there is no barb (which happens fairly often)...will the aggro ability allow the bm to tank efficiently. yes it is too early to tell...but the question isnt whether bm's can replace barb as a class. just be a good option as a tank.

You cant really use the point of "hp are where they are lacking"...because obviously if the bm doesnt have the hp needed to tank the boss then he wont tank the boss...nor will he be asked to tank the boss. Aggro is the question not the survivability...strictly aggro.

Bashusilly - Heavens Tear

Voices - Lost City wrote: »

To the same point, couldn't ANYONE with enough HP tank anything? After all, barbs and bms are only effective against physical mobs (even if they encompass most of the bosses in the game) unless you enjoy hitting the marrow button every 30 seconds.

I guess since this thread was revived I would comment again. To this quote, Both barbs and Bms have skills to counteract magic, whether that be our marrow, shadowless kick cancels spells and for barbs alacrity of the beast. The point is, that bm's and barbs, by nature are going to have a higher HP level. Bm's maybe not so much as a barb, but we can still accumulate quite a bit. The challenge is to find players, whether they are Bm's or barbs, that are capable of playing their toon to the fullest.

The stereotype that we as Bm's, are not Tanks is due to the fact that there is technically a better tank in the game. We all know that barbs are built specifically to be a tank, the point is that a Bm can be a DD, or can be a tank but are not the best at either and that is where our strength is.

Voices - Lost City

deryckatlanta wrote: »

You cant really use the point of "hp are where they are lacking"...because obviously if the bm doesnt have the hp needed to tank the boss then he wont tank the boss...nor will he be asked to tank the boss. Aggro is the question not the survivability...strictly aggro.

It is not too late to continue the discussion b:thanks

I am here to provide a cleric's perspective on tanking. The stereotype that BMs cannot be tanks exists because other people generalized BMs and determined their capabilities. The reason is that when a player decides to tank they must convince the cleric that they are capable (of both surviving and holding aggro) as well as the rest of the squad. This stereotype is effective unless of course they are tanking alone (aggro is not going to be a concern in this case), but I think many people are assuming that clerics will be there for heals, so lets go with that.

As a cleric, aggro is not necessarily the subject of concern. I go on fbs with blademasters often, and as long as the bm does not miss their AoE attack (whether it be roar or an attack) aggro is usually held before a mage or an archer takes it away. Furthermore, if a mage or a archer does take it away and manages to die in the process, healing the main tank should not shift from a clerics concern. The reason is that if the person that pulled aggro dies before the main tank can get there, and the cleric heals, then aggro is going straight to the cleric after that person dies. I have never stolen aggro by healing a BM who was the main tank. My only concern is that this BM has enough HP to survive so that he wont die and I wont take aggro. FBs are usually not of concern for BM tanking (except maybe 69, I've never done it with a BM).

HP, IMO, becomes a major factor in worldbossing, HH, Frostlands, and Lunar (I have no experience with the latter two). In order to prevent a party wipe, a cleric wants to sit behind someone they know will not die. Excess amounts of HP are good in these situations because if a cleric makes a mistake, and they often do, the squad has a good chance of surviving still. This will become more evident as bosses start doing 10k+ damage. Because of this, BM's will always be second to Barbs in terms of single target tanking. Worldboss offers an interesting perspective on the HP situation. Because Barbs do not fight in humanoid form, but in tiger form, they are actually easier to differentiate among the masses of people attacking from melee range. When a tiger tanks a worldboss, every cleric in and out of that squad knows who is tanking and this is an advantage. Even worse, worldbosses are more likely to cast status effects (curses) which must be purified immediately or the tank will die. Again this makes excess HP an advantage for tanks.

Again, not saying that BM's lack HP in many situations. However I am pointing out that aggro and HP are inseparable categories in tanking. And, to generalize most of the population which doesn't consist of xAsch, many BMs simply do not have 11k HP. Holding aggro may be of great concern to BMs now, but hypothetically when they are able to hold aggro as well as tanks, HP will still be a factor looming over their heads (literally).

Terudrayo - Harshlands

with good gear and barb buff a vit build BM can reach 16K by endgame

Bashusilly - Heavens Tear

And I dont think that the discussion here is, or at least should be who is the better tank. In the begining the talk was about aggro. Was about whether the Genie aggro skill is a pro or con. And with that, with the ability to pull aggro, whether or not a BM is able to withstand the beating that comes with that job.

I think that, with time, we learn our characters limitations, through trying to press those limits.

I think the Hp, in my experiences, has been less the issue, that grabbing and holding aggro can be. Some of that for me, was my lack of experience with tanking as a BM. Some of that was lack of aggro based skills. In the perfect setting, I am on the front lines with a barb, I am pulling aggro of any secondary mobs that are lingering. I am telling the squad to focus their attention on the barbs primary target and I am making sure the other mobs are focused on me and not on the rest of the squad.

From this standpoint. I like the idea of a genie aggro skill. I like the idea of having peace of mind that someone will not make a mistake that will result in a mob mowing through the rest of the squad.

And that is, in my mind, the first and foremost responsibility of a BM. We are a bit of a cleaner, we need to be observant of our surroundings and of what the other members tendancies are. If a member fails, we have to be there to try and pick up the pieces. whether that be a barb falling belly up or another member pulling accidental aggro.

That is why we have the HP we do, because we cannot be reliant on the Cleric to heal us if they are focused on the tank. we have to be able to survive.

But, with the skills and attributes we are given to do our job, we are also given the ability to play the roll of the tank. Of course its not going to be to the same level of a barb, barbs are specialized, BM's are generalized.

Dark_Exile - Sanctuary

asch has a point. even without his gear vit build has alot of hp.