Dueling vs open PVP

Shadowdragon - Harshlands

Hey I'm just wondering, I see this everywhere, and yet no one seems to elaborate on it.

"Dueling means nothing" Seem familiar? My question is... why? Aside from the fact that

Charms do not tick,
Players start on equal footing (no sneak attack)
No chance of interference from other players (Unless you duel out in the open)

Dueling and PVP are the same aren't they? Except you start on equal terms.

Oh and no PK counting... so why the discrimination?

Kristoph - Lost City

Shadowdragon - Harshlands wrote: »

Hey I'm just wondering, I see this everywhere, and yet no one seems to elaborate on it.

"Dueling means nothing" Seem familiar? My question is... why? Aside from the fact that

Charms do not tick,
Players start on equal footing (no sneak attack)
No chance of interference from other players (Unless you duel out in the open)

Dueling and PVP are the same aren't they? Except you start on equal terms.

Oh and no PK counting... so why the discrimination?

Because charms affect pvp A LOT. Along with (apo) pots, flying (barely happens in duels) and so on.

Shadowdragon - Harshlands

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Because charms affect pvp A LOT. Along with (apo) pots, flying (barely happens in duels) and so on.

But if you need the charm to win... I know they affect PVP a lot to a degree that even horribly lower levels can beat maybe 10 lvls higher unless there's a lucky critical shot. So is the "Duels don't mean anything" quote just for people who can't win without a charm?

Edit: I guess I just can't agree with someone who loses a duel, but wins pvp after having the heiro tick 2-3 times... And then talks ****. Also, the only way around a charm is high spike damage right? How do WBs deal with it having usually low damage output, but being able to take more hits than the other? And thus over time doing much more damage. Or does damage grow really high vs hp over levels

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear

Dueled is based of 100% character skill

PvP is an array of things like apo, hieros etc

sillyfoo

Im just gonna say this to put it out there your gonna get people who look down on dueling no matter what. Dueling is good for some peoples tastes and good for them but open pk uses the tw format and therefore some downplay and downgrade dueling as nothing. Dueling has its downs like for the barb class since all archer has to do is aim low move away lightning skills dead but in open pk u gotta hope for a series of crits. Dueling and open pk is like comparing apples and oranges there both fruit but different. Dueling has its ups since its the purest(not best) form of pvp however open pk is by far more exciting and a whole lot more people can participate. Open pk you can get drops as well as lose drops to people (not everyone binds and carries 100+ dolls)and that adds to excitment. If you've experienced 80+ people involved in open pk and im not talking tw it is crazy fun and hectic. GZ vs RQ in open pk near village of lost when they were both on pretty equal footing was a fun pk event first time i seen my map swarmed by green dots while not in tw and people dying left and right. Open pk doesnt even need 100+ it can be party vs party it just adds a element u cant get in dueling. I just say whatever works for u then do it but if u plan to tw then nothing will help u prepare like open pk to experience teamwork and ways to get around heiros.

wenh93

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Dueled is based of 100% character skill

PvP is an array of things like apo, hieros etc

its the 1 that stuns the most cough *bm* cough

100% skill my a$$..

tatakairyu

Duels limit you from using items you can use in open pvp. Charms work better on some classes than others so if you don't let that class have their charm, you're handicapping them.

So no, duels are not equal. They're a handicap to certain classes.

and no duels are not based off of skill lol.

crackerchad

No.. he had it right, duels are based on how you built your character and how good you are at using him, using your class to the fullest.

PK is not nearly the same, it doesnt matter how good you are in pk, if your opponent is stacked with charms and such and you have none... you're useless.

So what PK comes down to is either who has the most in-game money, or who used the most RL money to buy those "necessary" pk items.

Survival of the richest ^^

Kristoph - Lost City

Duels are only about interrupting the other, stuns/paralyze, making them unable to fight you while you continue dishing out damage. It's not that someone "needs a charm" to win, it's simply the fact that open pvp has a lot more things added to it. Besides, some classes are far easier to play in duels. Axe BMs, Veno w/phoenix, etc.

angellicdeity

Shadowdragon - Harshlands wrote: »

"Dueling means nothing" Seem familiar? My question is... why? Aside from the fact that

Anyone can duel, not everyone has the awareness it takes to be a successful PvP/PK'er.


The successful ones watch their mini-maps. They know who is around them - whether there is a red name in the area.


People have the common misconception that Player Killing needs you to actually kill someone (despite the name.)

Shadowdragon - Harshlands wrote: »

Charms do not tick,
Players start on equal footing (no sneak attack)
No chance of interference from other players (Unless you duel out in the open)

Dueling and PVP are the same aren't they? Except you start on equal terms.

Hardly.

Archers, for example, start out gimped no matter which way you place it.

Archers have range further than clerics or mages. It doesn't do any good for them to be gimped as soon as the duel starts. Blademasters often love following archers during the countdown to begin a duel. Recall : Archers damage is halved when the target is too close.



Duels, again, arent equal terms. They heavily favor those class with healing abilities - such as clerics (which can be easier if they are robes) and Blademasters. A cleric can stack heals before a duel has begun... How fair is that?


Duels, lopside the power of the Pheonix even more. The bugged Pheonix will tear Barbarians to pieces in duels.



Again, people who keep arguing that duels involve more skill and whatnot are just people who are unwilling to face the fact that they are good at something which doesn't say a whole lot. Funny thing is, most of these players come from the Blademaster/Barbarian/Veno/and Cleric classes. It's also funny that its those Veno's from the PvE servers that get offended when Veno's from the PvP server say the bugged pheonix's need to be fixed.


People who say duels give better results than PvP have obviously NOT reached 89. A triple spark can kill almost any class from any class very easily. Charms help balance that out a bit.


This game doesn't require skill in the least bit. It requires:

Time, Money, and Strategy.



The moment you become aware of your surroundings you'll find open PvP a different experience. Otherwise its just the mindless "oh I was killed by a high level while killing a monster."


Running to the safe-zone is a completely legitamite tactic. If they are the same level - why not kill them if you see their name is red?

Yourmom - Lost City

sillyfoo wrote: »

Im just gonna say this to put it out there your gonna get people who look down on dueling no matter what. Dueling is good for some peoples tastes and good for them but open pk uses the tw format and therefore some downplay and downgrade dueling as nothing. Dueling has its downs like for the barb class since all archer has to do is aim low move away lightning skills dead but in open pk u gotta hope for a series of crits. Dueling and open pk is like comparing apples and oranges there both fruit but different. Dueling has its ups since its the purest(not best) form of pvp however open pk is by far more exciting and a whole lot more people can participate. Open pk you can get drops as well as lose drops to people (not everyone binds and carries 100+ dolls)and that adds to excitment. If you've experienced 80+ people involved in open pk and im not talking tw it is crazy fun and hectic. GZ vs RQ in open pk near village of lost when they were both on pretty equal footing was a fun pk event first time i seen my map swarmed by green dots while not in tw and people dying left and right. Open pk doesnt even need 100+ it can be party vs party it just adds a element u cant get in dueling. I just say whatever works for u then do it but if u plan to tw then nothing will help u prepare like open pk to experience teamwork and ways to get around heiros.

angellicdeity wrote: »

Anyone can duel, not everyone has the awareness it takes to be a successful PvP/PK'er.


The successful ones watch their mini-maps. They know who is around them - whether there is a red name in the area.


People have the common misconception that Player Killing needs you to actually kill someone (despite the name.)




Hardly.

Archers, for example, start out gimped no matter which way you place it.

Archers have range further than clerics or mages. It doesn't do any good for them to be gimped as soon as the duel starts. Blademasters often love following archers during the countdown to begin a duel. Recall : Archers damage is halved when the target is too close.



Duels, again, arent equal terms. They heavily favor those class with healing abilities - such as clerics (which can be easier if they are robes) and Blademasters. A cleric can stack heals before a duel has begun... How fair is that?


Duels, lopside the power of the Pheonix even more. The bugged Pheonix will tear Barbarians to pieces in duels.



Again, people who keep arguing that duels involve more skill and whatnot are just people who are unwilling to face the fact that they are good at something which doesn't say a whole lot. Funny thing is, most of these players come from the Blademaster/Barbarian/Veno/and Cleric classes. It's also funny that its those Veno's from the PvE servers that get offended when Veno's from the PvP server say the bugged pheonix's need to be fixed.


People who say duels give better results than PvP have obviously NOT reached 89. A triple spark can kill almost any class from any class very easily. Charms help balance that out a bit.


This game doesn't require skill in the least bit. It requires:

Time, Money, and Strategy.



The moment you become aware of your surroundings you'll find open PvP a different experience. Otherwise its just the mindless "oh I was killed by a high level while killing a monster."


Running to the safe-zone is a completely legitamite tactic. If they are the same level - why not kill them if you see their name is red?

^^what they said


Warriors shouldn't lose duels. You can stunlock someone long enough to tick away at their hp.

Archers shouldn't win duels. Just charge them before the countdown is over and they're done.

Veno with (even without) nix shouldn't lose duels. Bramble right before the countdown is over. Melee's will kill themselves on you and other people will do no damage.

Mage can sutra before the countdown, and let loose a couple big spells real quick.


Basically a duel is just knowing a little trick to get the edge on your opponent by knowing how to beat their class. It doesn't matter about their gear or level so much. I don't really consider knowing a little trick skill either.

Sillyfoo brings up another good point about open pvp, is that you can get multiple people involved. When you can get 10v10 with pretty equal groups that is the most fun I have in this game by far.

Mikel_oru - Sanctuary

I prefer Duels over PK mainly because it's an equal fight and money don't count that much but yeah PK is a bit more exciting since there is a profit to be had and many people can take part in it. Still if you can say that the game needs skills then Dueling needs more skill than PKing. On 1v1 i enjoy duels much more than pking.
Still the richest will probably win in PK, not so equal if you ask me.

PvP = player vs player aka 1 vs 1
PK = player kill
Don't confuse the two.. PvP = Duel

Voices - Lost City

This is a pretty good thread.

PK allows for the full range of possibilities to occur, whereas dueling does not; PK has real consequences, whereas dueling does not. This is why I believe some people consider open PvP to be real PvP.

Shadowdragon - Harshlands

Thanks for everyone's input.

While I do agree, that dueling does in fact put limitations, and the countdown is a horrible disadvantage for many ranged classes, what about in cases it's warrior vs warrior anyways. The loser calls the winner out into pvp where his charm will keep him safe.

Also, the one thing dueling doesn't offer is the mass pvp which I enjoy as well, however, let's say it's still open world pvp, both players are aware and waiting for the other. It's one on one still, and no sneak attacks, no surprises... what then?

And I'm just wondering, charms start to lose their effectiveness in pvp when you reach around what levels? Because it seems, even an archer under constant barrage of my attacks won't die, because the charm will cooldown right before I can deal a final blow. Of course, if my attacks didn't miss half the time, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Any suggestions? Comments?

BTW Mikel that's a sweet signature. Where'd you get it?

Amour - Lost City

For blademasters and barbs their damage really becomes nice once you get berserk axes (Calamity axes of blood, level 70 molder axes) because it gives a really good chance to proc double damage. Berserk crits on most LA/Robes will be oneshots (4x damage)

Havard - Harshlands

I'm afraid Player vs Player means exactly what it says, it has nothing to do with the fairness of the fight. In pvp, fair fights rarely occur; there are advantages and disadvantages of many kinds, including level, who attacked who, etc. A duel does not necessarily implicate fairness, as many people pointed out. It does have the advantage that both sides are ready though.

Player killing is exactly what it's called also. PKing often connotes more of a cheap-shot mentality, but who's to say that's not how it should be?

These games aren't fair, the one who assesses opportunities better is perhaps the truly skilled one. I really despise the types who pk a lowbie but then are nowhere to be found when a stronger player shows up, but aren't they just being tactical? It's always annoying when the other side finds something that works. Isn't the person who wins the "better player" in that regard?

Zephyrx - Lost City

Havard - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm afraid Player vs Player means exactly what it says, it has nothing to do with the fairness of the fight. In pvp, fair fights rarely occur; there are advantages and disadvantages of many kinds, including level, who attacked who, etc. A duel does not necessarily implicate fairness, as many people pointed out. It does have the advantage that both sides are ready though.

Player killing is exactly what it's called also. PKing often connotes more of a cheap-shot mentality, but who's to say that's not how it should be?

These games aren't fair, the one who assesses opportunities better is perhaps the truly skilled one. I really despise the types who pk a lowbie but then are nowhere to be found when a stronger player shows up, but aren't they just being tactical? It's always annoying when the other side finds something that works. Isn't the person who wins the "better player" in that regard?

At the end of the day, your all the same whether you fight fairly in a dual or pked a random newbie. All that's left is your feelings. So hey, if you feel good about killing newbies and have no consequences, that's fine with me. But for most of us, fighting a fair duel just seems more fun and challanging to both players.

angellicdeity

Shadowdragon - Harshlands wrote: »

And I'm just wondering, charms start to lose their effectiveness in pvp when you reach around what levels? Because it seems, even an archer under constant barrage of my attacks won't die, because the charm will cooldown right before I can deal a final blow. Of course, if my attacks didn't miss half the time, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

When you stop missing...

No matter how much damage you can throw, it does you no good if you cant hit.


Once you get your triple spark and others get theirs it all becomes luck. If you get stunned first, say good night if they're casters. If they get stunned first - they're a gonner. If you miss hits you're a gonner.


The charms actually help the battles last longer.

The Blade on Blade and Barb on Barb or Blade on Barb action will never stop being slow and costly.

Lordexion - Lost City

wenh93 wrote: »

its the 1 that stuns the most cough *bm* cough

100% skill my a$$..

prevent itb:victory

Mikel_oru - Sanctuary

Shadowdragon - Harshlands wrote: »

BTW Mikel that's a sweet signature. Where'd you get it?

Thanks.
I found several pictures of Victor Delacruix, vilian in Chaos Legion (i didn't like the game much but Victor's story was very touching) gave them to a good friend of mine, she picked the ones she liked the most and created this out of them, she did a great job.

Havard - Harshlands wrote: »

A duel does not necessarily implicate fairness, as many people pointed out. It does have the advantage that both sides are ready though.

Duel is the closest thing to a fair fight in PW, that's all.

Kristoph - Lost City

Mikel_oru - Sanctuary wrote: »

Duel is the closest thing to a fair fight in PW, that's all.

No, it isn't. Try fighting a few wizards with your cleric. If you lose, you're really dumb or they're spamming apoth pots.

angellicdeity

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

No, it isn't. Try fighting a few wizards with your cleric. If you lose, you're really dumb or they're spamming apoth pots.

Mikel_Oru has repeatedly lost this fight over and over again, he keeps trying to beat a dead horse.

He cant accept he's good at nothing.b:pleased

Cyanea - Lost City

Mikel_oru - Sanctuary wrote: »

Duel is the closest thing to a fair fight in PW, that's all.

Oh, come on... i might be the last person you would ever want on your side in a PvP battle, but even I know archers can not ever win duels if they try using their winged blessing.

Do you know of any other classes where if they actually use one of their core skills they can not win a duel?

Zephyrx - Lost City

Dueling when it is clearly not in your favor is rather pointless, as the outcome is pretty much a loss.

Open PvP is a lot better since you can get the upper hand and win with tactics such as gang **** your enemy. Or simply lure your opponent into a trap full of your high lvl friends and proceed to own that person.

Open PvP offers a lot more options to the player than simple dueling. I will probably find it more enjoyable as the option to kill players when they are weak (ex fighting monsters) and give me more of an advantage. Dueling is like a battle of fixed numbers, and you probably already know the outcome. In all, dueling's rather boring.

Shadowdragon - Harshlands

Zephyrx - Lost City wrote: »

Dueling when it is clearly not in your favor is rather pointless, as the outcome is pretty much a loss.

Open PvP is a lot better since you can get the upper hand and win with tactics such as gang **** your enemy. Or simply lure your opponent into a trap full of your high lvl friends and proceed to own that person.

Open PvP offers a lot more options to the player than simple dueling. I will probably find it more enjoyable as the option to kill players when they are weak (ex fighting monsters) and give me more of an advantage. Dueling is like a battle of fixed numbers, and you probably already know the outcome. In all, dueling's rather boring.

Not that I'm really against pvp, but gang **** or bringing your target into a trap with your high level friends... Or even striking when they're weak... How is that NOT a battle with fixed numbers?

Zephyrx - Lost City

Shadowdragon - Harshlands wrote: »

Not that I'm really against pvp, but gang **** or bringing your target into a trap with your high level friends... Or even striking when they're weak... How is that NOT a battle with fixed numbers?

Depends on whether your opponent is aware or not and how good you are lol. Sure the first time you will surprise your enemy, but if you face that opponent again, they will probably be more aware of you and fight back!

People learn who usually ganks them. And they can fight back with squads also. Dueling is always fixed, so that why I say Open PvP is better because it is not the same the first time, the second time, the third time.. etc.

P.S. Well... for my way, if they level is near mine or their level is much higher. I have the right to kill them at will. Though lower levels are excluded (unless the lower lvls are plain idiots who pick a fight, then they die). That's my policy.

Granrey - Sanctuary

Duels are the actual indicators on how your character is PVP wise.

Does that mean your character is good in PK? Of course not.

Those are different things.

You can take the best boxer champion out there (boxing kind of like dueling). Let him lose on a pit full of street fighters in which only one can come out. Don't expect the boxer to be the champion there too.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Just going to say one thing here. If you can't win a fight without using your classes main advantage, learn to play. To be good at pvp is to win in ANY situation. Including when the other guy has a huge advantage.

In short, duels or open pk are the same thing. If you are good at your class you will win regardless.

Esprite - Lost City

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just going to say one thing here. If you can't win a fight without using your classes main advantage, learn to play.

Thanks, I'm going to bring this with me back to Lost City.