Where does the damage come from?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
edited April 2009 in Archer
I was in an fb99 against a metal immune mob and decided to test some of the metal skills.

The mob was able to resist Thunderous Blast but I noticed thunder shock did like 200 dam. I'm not sure where this damage came from or what type it was.

Blazing arrow should have no effect with metal skills. My weapon had a garnet shard in there but that should work to base physical damage which should be converted to metal. No wiz was in the group so it wasn't frostblade. There was a cleric a barb and a veno but am not sure what they could have done. Anyone have any ideas?

I'll give the person with the best answer a cookie.
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Post edited by Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 on

Comments

  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Thundershock reduces Metal resistance, right? So if the monster had an immunity of 100%, and Thundershock removes 23% (at level 1), then you can do 23% of your damage.

    This is assuming that the debuff is applied prior to your damage, which I think is something that could reasonably be true.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Hmmm, I don't know... I believe thundershock reduces their absolute defence by a certain percentage and not their % resist. When I get effected by a def debuff I can open the character sheet to see the new lower value. As you gain more metal resistance your % resist approaches 100% but never reaches it.

    Metal immunity is equivalent to infinite metal resist so inifinity - 50% is still infinity...
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Hmmm, I don't know... I believe thundershock reduces their absolute defence by a certain percentage and not their % resist.

    If that's true, then ecatomb is wrong, and Annor's Guide and the Newbie's Guide sticky on this forum need to be updated. I can't log in right now but I think the skill description states that it is applied to the Metal Resistance, not their physical defense.
    When I get effected by a def debuff I can open the character sheet to see the new lower value. As you gain more metal resistance your % resist approaches 100% but never reaches it.

    Metal immunity is equivalent to infinite metal resist so inifinity - 50% is still infinity...

    I think this agrees with what I am saying. Regardless of the numerical value of your Metal Resistance, it gets converted to some percentage. You state that it never reaches 100%, so that means metal resistance goes from 0% to 99.999999999%.

    So we call your Metal Resistance MR, which is the number that gets added to with your equipment's resistances and such.

    We definte your resulting resist percentage as P. You state P never reaches 100%, so it's range goes from 0% to 99.999999999999999%. (Let's ignore the cases where it goes below 0%.)

    So there is some black box function, called f(), that takes MR as input, and returns a percent P. So f(MR) returns P, where P ranges from 0% to almost 100%.

    Thundershock is applied to P, completely irrelevant to what MR is. Even if a creature's MR is 4,294,967,295 (unsigned 32-bit integer), that will be converted to some percentage P. For a metal-immune creature, that percentage might just be 100%. Then, if you apply Thundershock's debuff to P (not MR), you get a metal-immune monster that can be hurt by electric attacks.
  • wenh93
    wenh93 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    If that's true, then ecatomb is wrong, and Annor's Guide and the Newbie's Guide sticky on this forum need to be updated. I can't log in right now but I think the skill description states that it is applied to the Metal Resistance, not their physical defense.



    I think this agrees with what I am saying. Regardless of the numerical value of your Metal Resistance, it gets converted to some percentage. You state that it never reaches 100%, so that means metal resistance goes from 0% to 99.999999999%.

    So we call your Metal Resistance MR, which is the number that gets added to with your equipment's resistances and such.

    We definte your resulting resist percentage as P. You state P never reaches 100%, so it's range goes from 0% to 99.999999999999999%. (Let's ignore the cases where it goes below 0%.)

    So there is some black box function, called f(), that takes MR as input, and returns a percent P. So f(MR) returns P, where P ranges from 0% to almost 100%.

    Thundershock is applied to P, completely irrelevant to what MR is. Even if a creature's MR is 4,294,967,295 (unsigned 32-bit integer), that will be converted to some percentage P. For a metal-immune creature, that percentage might just be 100%. Then, if you apply Thundershock's debuff to P (not MR), you get a metal-immune monster that can be hurt by electric attacks.

    i finally understand quantum physics b:thanks
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    If that's true, then ecatomb is wrong, and Annor's Guide and the Newbie's Guide sticky on this forum need to be updated. I can't log in right now but I think the skill description states that it is applied to the Metal Resistance, not their physical defense.



    I think this agrees with what I am saying. Regardless of the numerical value of your Metal Resistance, it gets converted to some percentage. You state that it never reaches 100%, so that means metal resistance goes from 0% to 99.999999999%.

    So we call your Metal Resistance MR, which is the number that gets added to with your equipment's resistances and such.

    We definte your resulting resist percentage as P. You state P never reaches 100%, so it's range goes from 0% to 99.999999999999999%. (Let's ignore the cases where it goes below 0%.)

    So there is some black box function, called f(), that takes MR as input, and returns a percent P. So f(MR) returns P, where P ranges from 0% to almost 100%.

    Thundershock is applied to P, completely irrelevant to what MR is. Even if a creature's MR is 4,294,967,295 (unsigned 32-bit integer), that will be converted to some percentage P. For a metal-immune creature, that percentage might just be 100%. Then, if you apply Thundershock's debuff to P (not MR), you get a metal-immune monster that can be hurt by electric attacks.

    Well I never mentioned physical defense ... anyway yes I suppose there are two questions where I do not know the answers (which are testable!).

    1) Does thundershock affect the Metal Resistance value (that value you see in your character sheet) or the Metal percent resist (that percentage you see when you hover over your metal resistance in the character sheet)?

    2) If the answer to A is the the second option (say the target's metal % resist is 52%), does a 50% metal debuff take it down to 2% (52% - 50%) or to 26% (52%*50%)?

    Anyone know? My gut still tells me its wonky to metal defense debuff a metal immune mob but I have been wrong before :)
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Ah, my apologies. When I read "absolute defence", I thought you mean physical defense.

    This would be fairly trivial to test. Have a duel, and just fire off 1 Thundershock. Observe the values of the MR value and % before and after.

    Try with and without armor / equipment.

    Put the numbers up, and I'm certain the skills I acquired in high school and college will allow me to fudge the math and logic so that I am correct =)
  • Annor - Heavens Tear
    Annor - Heavens Tear Posts: 330 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    My understanding was similar to Astarelle's, that it reduces a portion of the value on your character sheet. So a 50% reduction to this value from thundershock, might be equivalent to a 20% increase in damage (or whatever.. -- remember that you get diminishing % returns for higher values).

    I can actually demonstrate quite well with my equipment the sort of effect that might happen:

    equipment1 earth resist: 3055 = 46% reduction
    So enemies targetting me do: Damage x 0.54

    equipment2 earth resist: 2018 (almost exactly half) = 36% reduction
    So enemies targetting me do: Damage x 0.64

    So... in reducing my metal resistance by 50% (like with a rank 10 thundershock), metal attacks dealt to me do roughly 20% more damage.


    I also agree that thundershock shouldnt negate metal immunity. I think this is a seperate issue, a switch thats flicked on a mob that makes it take no damage -- as Asterelle said, no amount of metal resistance should be able create a 100% immunity, so it must be a more formidable problem ^^.
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  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    In some games, it is not uncommon to see an immune become vulnerable. An example would be Diablo 2 where the lightning sorc with properly equipped gear shreds lightning "immunes" to pieces.

    My input would be similar to what Elenacostel mentioned. It would not be unreasonable to hypothesise that the monster's immunity is not actually "infinite". While it may have a large absolute resistence value, once operated on by the percentage operator, this number will fall between 0<x<100 with both the upper and lower bounds as asymptotes (except truncation).

    My understanding/guess re:thunder shock would be that it affects the absolute resistence value. Astrelle, the absolute values and the percentage negation are not linear, therefore you cannot directly correlate them as you have in your post.

    For example 2000 absolute metal resistence may mean 40% metal reduction, but 4000 absolute metal resistence is nowhere near 80% metal reduction. Likewise using your two questions for example, you say that:

    "... (say the target's metal % resist is 52%), does a 50% metal debuff take it down to 2% (52% - 50%) or to 26% (52%*50%)?"

    It would be neither because the skill affects the absolute value, not percentage re: 52%-50%, nor will it be 26%.

    Atleast that's what I think so anyway. I have also read on a chinese archer guide that the -resistence only applies to "equipment" resistences, but that will complicate a lot of things (we all know PWI won't put that much effort into calculations xD) and I prefer elegant solutions.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Yes that is the way I believe it happens but was entertaining the other viewpoint. It still doesn't look like we have solved this riddle then.

    Next time I will try to isolate the variables more.
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  • Nnn - Sanctuary
    Nnn - Sanctuary Posts: 91 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Thundershock reduces Metal resistance, right? So if the monster had an immunity of 100%, and Thundershock removes 23% (at level 1), then you can do 23% of your damage.

    This is assuming that the debuff is applied prior to your damage, which I think is something that could reasonably be true.

    shes right.
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