Sage/Demon for Venomancers
Comments
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Maiya - Lost City wrote: »It's not on the Skill Tree. When you learn the demon books (in Momaganon or Sage in Lothransis), the respective class NPC has the skill. Mo Zun's Taunt and Demonic Eruption both cost 0 coins and 0 spirit.
I forgot to mention that the skill says the Cooldown is 30 seconds.
Cool thx. b:thanks0 -
@Obsessed - are you Arcane, LA or Heavy? I started to think that build matters too.
For LA wouldn't it be better to go Sage? Demon gives more critical hits, but LA has nice critical rate already. Sage would improve the damage between the critical hits and would bit compensate for the skill points put in Dex/Str. Also the critical hit would make more damage. Sage would bit make LA's performance more stable, while Demon LA would become a mini-archer.
For Arcane wouldn't it be better to go Demon? Arcanes has good overall damage, because of high Magic, so Demon would offer the missing critical hit rate, which would speed up the killing process.
As for Heavy - I am not too familiar with this build or its playstyle.
It just seemed that Sage LA and Demon Arcane is more balanced than Demon LA and Sage Arcane. I am LA and was thinking about going Sage, because of more stable performance. I like critical hits, but I already steal aggro with them too often. If I decieded to restat to Arcane later, then I would miss the critical hits as they speed up the killing and makes it more interesting.0 -
Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »@Obsessed - are you Arcane, LA or Heavy? I started to think that build matters too.
For LA wouldn't it be better to go Sage? Demon gives more critical hits, but LA has nice critical rate already. Sage would improve the damage between the critical hits and would bit compensate for the skill points put in Dex/Str. Also the critical hit would make more damage. Sage would bit make LA's performance more stable, while Demon LA would become a mini-archer.
For Arcane wouldn't it be better to go Demon? Arcanes has good overall damage, because of high Magic, so Demon would offer the missing critical hit rate, which would speed up the killing process.
As for Heavy - I am not too familiar with this build or its playstyle.
It just seemed that Sage LA and Demon Arcane is more balanced than Demon LA and Sage Arcane. I am LA and was thinking about going Sage, because of more stable performance. I like critical hits, but I already steal aggro with them too often. If I decieded to restat to Arcane later, then I would miss the critical hits as they speed up the killing and makes it more interesting.
I agree.
If you are using fox form skills most of the time, then go sage.
If you are using human form skills most of the time, then go demon.0 -
Yeah, I decided to go demon, sounds like itd help a buttload in TT.0
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XKIAx - Heavens Tear wrote: »I agree.
If you are using fox form skills most of the time, then go sage.
If you are using human form skills most of the time, then go demon.
Your post made me understand, that I wrote my opinion from mages point of view. I went for LA because of more survivability and critical hits, not because of fox form. I fail as fox and don't have too much experience with fox skills b:surrender0 -
Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »Your post made me understand, that I wrote my opinion from mages point of view. I went for LA because of more survivability and critical hits, not because of fox form. I fail as fox and don't have too much experience with fox skills b:surrender
Me neither, i only use amp damage and purge in TT lol0 -
Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »Yeah, I decided to go demon, sounds like itd help a buttload in TT.
I went Demon for one reason. Demon Fox Form.
... And the burger is cute.
No seriously, I kept debating back and forth, and went **** it, imma go with the speed. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
XKIAx - Heavens Tear wrote: »About those level 79 skills. I heard that one is AOE and one is not. I also heard that you have to be in fox form to use the one, and "human" form to use the other. But which one goes with what form? AOE + fox and none AOE + human? Or is it the other way around? Sadly Ecatomb doesnt say
Quite a few weeks ago i found a site that said what every level 79 skill does for every class, including a screenshot of what the casting animation looks like. But stupid me, i forgot to bookmark the link, now i cant find it anymore. If anyone has that link, or can confirm if its AOE + fox, or whatever, it'll be greatly appreciated. b:thanks
Anyone have any info on this please? b:surrender0 -
XKIAx - Heavens Tear wrote: »Anyone have any info on this please? b:surrender
http://janelh.wikidot.com/new-skills
Names for everything are from a different server, but you can figure it out. Venomancer/werefox = Yao Jing just fyi.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Could a demon veno clarify Ironwood Scarab please? The skill book itself makes it sound like there is an 80% to not apply any debuff at all, but none of the various guides I've read make a distinction. The all just say 20% to reduce to 0 Pdef.0
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Yourmom - Lost City wrote: »http://janelh.wikidot.com/new-skills
Names for everything are from a different server, but you can figure it out. Venomancer/werefox = Yao Jing just fyi.
Tyvm, it was exactly the site i was looking for. b:thanks0 -
Eesh. I came to this thread hoping it would help me make my decision about sage/demon because I've been debating it a lot even though I have a long, long way to go still. I'm just as torn now as I had been, but at least I know a bit more about the different skills. b:chuckle I will continue to research and end up making my own decision, but what would people recommend for an Arcane veno in PvE who's not interested in TW but very interested in TT/FB/bosses?
Right now I'm leaning towards sage because I use no fox skills ever and, frankly, I prefer the sage fairy to the demon burger. The more steady increase in damage seems as if it'd be more useful for my preferences but... I'm still torn! Opinions? I'll likely end up going sage anyway, but opinions are always useful.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
images by ForsakenX0 -
Mistigris - Heavens Tear wrote: »Eesh. I came to this thread hoping it would help me make my decision about sage/demon because I've been debating it a lot even though I have a long, long way to go still. I'm just as torn now as I had been, but at least I know a bit more about the different skills. b:chuckle I will continue to research and end up making my own decision, but what would people recommend for an Arcane veno in PvE who's not interested in TW but very interested in TT/FB/bosses?
Right now I'm leaning towards sage because I use no fox skills ever and, frankly, I prefer the sage fairy to the demon burger. The more steady increase in damage seems as if it'd be more useful for my preferences but... I'm still torn! Opinions? I'll likely end up going sage anyway, but opinions are always useful.
o.o usually people have the opposite veiw of yours, Imo Sage is more fox-friendly and demon more caster. Also you're only 67 you have a loooong way to thin about it =P0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »o.o usually people have the opposite veiw of yours, Imo Sage is more fox-friendly and demon more caster. Also you're only 67 you have a loooong way to thin about it =P
I was always sure that Sage is for casters and Demon for foxes... why? *points to the Spark eruptions*. But my assumption is based only on this spell.
@Mistigris
That depends on what you want and how content you are with your current build. Generally, Sage is better for pve/squads and Demon for pvp/solo, but there are few "ifs".
If you are content with your current build and don't wish for drastic changes, then Sage would be better as it would even improve your performance and is good for long fights.
If you aren't too content with your build and feel that it is lacking something, then maybe Demon is better as it offers what arcane is lacking - critical hits, some defense and faster killing.
But that's just my opinion :P
I am thinking about going Sage too to make my performance more stable. As LA, I make lot of critical hits and tend to steal aggro a lot too, so I hope Sage would improve my performance between critical hits. Because of that lately I am forced to fight in my underdeveloped fox form, so tank could do is job without problems.
But Demon is so tempting with even more critical hits and faster killing. I would really enjoy it while grinding and dueling...0 -
@Spark
I'm almost positive the "+600% weapon damage" of demon spark includes magical damage of the weapon. Making it not as bad for caster as many think.
As for why demon caster:
Venomous 6s wood resist -30%
S: gain chi 20% chance (lolololol)
Ironwood 20% chance to reduce def to 0
S: Increase debuff to 20sec
Noxious:(this one could go either way but personally I dont think much people care for dot) reduces cooldown 1sec
S: Adds 900 DoT
Wood Mastery( I like crit more :O) +2% crit
S: +5% wood damage
And those are the basic, most used spells
As for sage fox
Foxform speed boost
S: +30%pdef and 50% accuracy
Purge 5sec reduced cooldown
S: AOE purge
Melee Mastery +3crit
S: +50% weapon dmg
Leech: +200 hp steal
S: Always steals life
I'm sure theres more.. just didnt wanna make a huge list. Though half the book are nearly impossible to get right now(pages from legion commanders?!!?). Only the basic ones are really "get-able".0 -
Daerys - Sanctuary wrote: »Could a demon veno clarify Ironwood Scarab please? The skill book itself makes it sound like there is an 80% to not apply any debuff at all, but none of the various guides I've read make a distinction. The all just say 20% to reduce to 0 Pdef.
Yes, it's either you get the 20% chance reduction or it doesn't do anything but damage.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »I am forced to fight in my underdeveloped fox form, so tank could do is job without problems.
OT
Get a new tank, your tank do not know how to do his job. first time hear a LA build veno steal aggro from a tank. of course unless your level is significantly higher your tank, or your tank is not a barb.0 -
Thanks for the info, Obsessed. Didn't go that deep into Sage and Demon differences. That makes me re-think my choice.
@swgs - maybe I have had bad luck with my lvl barb-tanks or had just back circumstances then. But for few lvls I haven't dared to nuke all I have when same lvl barb tanks. Had not too pleasant results with aggro stealing already... btw, I wouldn't mind to have a test battles on some low lvl boss with my lvl barb, just to see who can steal aggro from who :P0 -
Some points on the caster=demon, foxform=sage thing. Sage ironwood does actually boost the debuff from 30% to 40%, besides extending duration and still being guaranteed. Sage noxious doesn't just boost the dot, it also boosts immediate damage to a greater extent than demon (and don't think I've ever found myself going "man, I wish noxious was cool 1 second faster"). I like crit as much as anyone, but 2% crit is just 1 extra crit in every 50 casts, a straight fight shouldn't require half that many casts either way; I prefer 5% more damage per cast. And as noted, casters get much more out of sage spark, 900% magic attack v. 700% for demon. On the flipside, demon melee mastery doesn't just give crit, it still gives a smaller boost to % damage unlike wood mastery. Demon soul degeneration's half evasion debuff and demon fox wallop's 1/5 chance of perfect crit for 5 seconds can also be quite powerful in the hands of a good heavy.
That said, there's plenty to like about demon casting skills too; just I think both are more or less equivalent in the grand scheme of things, and really a matter of preference. I would however agree demon casters clearly get the early edge on skills from the 89 books; sages don't really hit their stride until they start getting the major pain in the **** books.0 -
I factored those in.. copied from ecatomb:Akasera - Sanctuary wrote: »Some points on the caster=demon, foxform=sage thing. Sage ironwood does actually boost the debuff from 30% to 40%, besides extending duration and still being guaranteed. Sage noxious doesn't just boost the dot, it also boosts immediate damage to a greater extent than demon (and don't think I've ever found myself going "man, I wish noxious was cool 1 second faster"). I like crit as much as anyone, but 2% crit is just 1 extra crit in every 50 casts, a straight fight shouldn't require half that many casts either way; I prefer 5% more damage per cast. And as noted, casters get much more out of sage spark, 900% magic attack v. 700% for demon. On the flipside, demon melee mastery doesn't just give crit, it still gives a smaller boost to % damage unlike wood mastery. Demon soul degeneration's half evasion debuff and demon fox wallop's 1/5 chance of perfect crit for 5 seconds can also be quite powerful in the hands of a good heavy.
That said, there's plenty to like about demon casting skills too; just I think both are more or less equivalent in the grand scheme of things, and really a matter of preference. I would however agree demon casters clearly get the early edge on skills from the 89 books; sages don't really hit their stride until they start getting the major pain in the **** books.
Supposedly demon ironwood does the same:
Throw a splinted bug at the enemy inflicting Wood damage equal to base magic damage plus 300% of weapon damage plus 2770.0. Reduces enemy's physical defense by 40% for 10 seconds.
Requires 25 Chi.
Demon version has a 20% chance to reduce physical defense to zero.
You care right about noxious, I missread.
Wood Mastery
I hold my opinion on crit.. 5% extra damage is nothing imo. Critting in pvp is much more beneficial for taking down high hp players then a measly 5% damage (This skll is quite opinionative though, but pvp wise I'd deffinatly go with crit)
As noted from myself:
Spark
All the other sparks say physical attack, this one says weapon damage, and sages +% weapon damage is lower I believe. This mentality could be wrong, thats just how I interperted it.I'm almost positive the "+600% weapon damage" of demon spark includes magical damage of the weapon. Making it not as bad for caster as many think.
Melee Mastery you are wrong about:
note how the have the same base, then one has 50% and one has 3crit
DEMON:
Gain additional 150% weapon damage in Werefox form.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 3%.
SAGE:
Gain additional 150% weapon damage in Werefox form.
Sage version always gives 200% damage increase.
I like sages soul degeneration better:
20% max hp reduce
Demon Fox wallop deffinatly better lol, hence why I didnt mention it :P
I will say its highly subjective/opinionative, and in an essence playstyle-sensative. Though I havent met a pvp sage caster veno on HT yet... Though that could be because, as you noted, only the 89 books are easy to get, and the rest are next to impossible.
Disclaimer: skills all coppied/interperted from ecatomb, dont know how accurate.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Supposedly demon ironwood does the same:
Throw a splinted bug at the enemy inflicting Wood damage equal to base magic damage plus 300% of weapon damage plus 2770.0. Reduces enemy's physical defense by 40% for 10 seconds.
Requires 25 Chi.
Demon version has a 20% chance to reduce physical defense to zero.
I find it odd that it states a 40% defense debuff. But when you actually use it, there's only the 20% chance to reduce to 0 being used. I wonder if it's intentional or bugged.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I dont have the skill myself yet, so can't say for sure. I just pulled it off ecatomb.Maiya - Lost City wrote: »I find it odd that it states a 40% defense debuff. But when you actually use it, there's only the 20% chance to reduce to 0 being used. I wonder if it's intentional or bugged.
Edit: If the ingame skill says the same as the ecatomb site, but only does the defense to 0 debuff, perhaps a support ticket should be sent in? If anyone can verify one way or another, that would be nice.0 -
Ecatomb isn't a fully reliable source, best to double-check it with book descriptions from database or in-game. It's completely off-base on the sparks for one thing. Sage spark is "900% extra magic attack", straight from my hotbar. Demon is 700%.
Demon ironwood may have the same base debuff, but meaningless if it doesn't impact if it doesn't get the 0 def hit.
I fully agree crits are more important in PvP; PvP is about spike damage. However, my point is that that 2% crit is just 1 cast in 50; that's far, far more attempts than you will get off in any one fight. I already have 10% crit; the marginal impact of that 2% isn't that great for me, and I'd rather the crits I do get have that much more impact.
Check again on melee mastery. Lv10 Melee Mastery is +120%. Much like with ironwood, the base description for both sage and demon melee mastery is +150%; just, the unique sage add is boosting to 200%, while demon is the 3% crit. Thus, here I favor the demon add, as they still get a base damage boost, plus melees (especially foxes) get far more attacks in per fight to attempt to crit.
I agree I like sage soul degeneration in general more; it was one of the reasons I myself went sage. Will be great for TT and such (who needs archers and tooth anymore?), and for PvP fun to watch barbs' HP take a nosedive after purge and HP debuff. But, for a heavy fox that already is capable of straight-up taking barbs, I can see the evade debuff being better to tackle those pesky archers.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »I dont have the skill myself yet, so can't say for sure. I just pulled it off ecatomb.
Edit: If the ingame skill says the same as the ecatomb site, but only does the defense to 0 debuff, perhaps a support ticket should be sent in? If anyone can verify one way or another, that would be nice.
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk246/luminatingheart/Perfect%20World/ironwoodscarab.jpg
I sent a ticket in yesterday, so just waiting on the response.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Hi, everyone's talking about all of these skills and such, but I was wondering which skills are readily available?
As in doesn't take more than >5mil or 4-5 hours just to get the skill.0 -
Right now, only the 3 books per class from fb89 (venomous, ironwood, and foxform for venos) are readily available. The rest must all be obtained from fb99/109 (10% chance the last boss, and only last boss, drops a single book), 86+ rebirth, and cube. So, yeah.... we wish it just took 4-5 hours to get one of the other skills.0
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Akasera - Sanctuary wrote: »Ecatomb isn't a fully reliable source, best to double-check it with book descriptions from database or in-game. It's completely off-base on the sparks for one thing. Sage spark is "900% extra magic attack", straight from my hotbar. Demon is 700%.
You didnt read what I wrote(your forgetting the -other- damage, I believe sage is 400% weapon damage, and demon is 600%, and I believe that includes the magic weapon damage, which doesnt make the sparks too far apart damage-wise), sorry I also shoulda pointed out I looked at the in-game descriptions for spark, since ecatombs is way far off.Demon ironwood may have the same base debuff, but meaningless if it doesn't impact if it doesn't get the 0 def hit.
Potential bug? Maiya sent a ticketI fully agree crits are more important in PvP; PvP is about spike damage. However, my point is that that 2% crit is just 1 cast in 50; that's far, far more attempts than you will get off in any one fight. I already have 10% crit; the marginal impact of that 2% isn't that great for me, and I'd rather the crits I do get have that much more impact.
Personal preference, as stated. However, as I see it 5% extra damage in pvp generally wont push your fight one way or the other, however a crit can.Check again on melee mastery. Lv10 Melee Mastery is +120%. Much like with ironwood, the base description for both sage and demon melee mastery is +150%; just, the unique sage add is boosting to 200%, while demon is the 3% crit. Thus, here I favor the demon add, as they still get a base damage boost, plus melees (especially foxes) get far more attacks in per fight to attempt to crit.
Like I said, I factored this, and only wrote down the impact one has over the other, since they had the same base, I only listed the unique adds. If you want me to fix it, how you see it, it would be:
S: +80%+30% 3crit
Seems we both have opposite views on crit, personal preference.I agree I like sage soul degeneration in general more; it was one of the reasons I myself went sage. Will be great for TT and such (who needs archers and tooth anymore?), and for PvP fun to watch barbs' HP take a nosedive after purge and HP debuff. But, for a heavy fox that already is capable of straight-up taking barbs, I can see the evade debuff being better to tackle those pesky archers.
Thats for 1 specific build, and as heavy I still generally use casting skill, which never miss, so reducing evasion is pretty miniscule of a debuff, I wouldnt even care to cast it, where as HP debuff would always be useful.
Obviously theres valid reasons to go either way for either skill tree, it's highly subjective. I was mearly pointing out why people generally think the way they do. I will say though, A main factor should be what books you will be able to get your hands on, which does tend to favor this mentality.0 -
Weapon damage should be referring to physical damage, which is irrelevent for casters. If you're right, then yes, less difference, but I don't believe this is how it works.
5% in a fight adds up, on top of amp, on top of spark, and on top of crit. More specifically, I'm looking at the fact that my crits will hit harder. By TT99, my LA build will have 18% crit; 20% crit wouldn't make much of a visible improvement. With diminishing returns, those two percentage points don't mean as much; you're still looking at basically 1 in 5 casts critting, and as casters, we don't have that many attacks in any one PvP encounter, compared to melee/archers. Given the rather miniscule difference in odds of crit then, I'd rather my crit spike for that much more.
Put more simply, it's +50% damage to +3% crit. Actually, here I would think we are agreeing in value. 3% crit is even more appealing on melee fox, with 1.25/sec attack rate, and you're still getting a base damage boost from lv10.
Admittedly, I was thinking more in terms of a heavy melee fox when appraising demon soul degeneration. For heavy casters, I agree, it's still sage all the way.0 -
Well I reasoned that because all the other sparks descriptions say melee attack, and this one says weapon damage, and like red ball(Heavens wrath, cleric skill) says "any weapon attack damages +100%" and includes magic attack. I dont know if my mentality is actually correct, however,... I hope it is. =P
I can agree @% crit might seem more miniscule to LA build, but to robe and HA 2% is a hell of a lot more. Where you might be jumping from 2 to 4, or 6 to 8, its a bigger difference.
The extra damage boost has no relavence in the comparison since the base is the same. Also, As with your crit for caster comparions, I can say: since they attack more the extra damage weapon be more benefical, specially after stacking and spark. You're flipflopping on your opinion simply over attack speed(then again I'm doing the same, but exactly opposite of you) I think we can put it to bed, that +damage vs. +crit is all personal preference.
Guess people should really look at the skills for themselves, only way anyone will really be able to decide.0 -
I chose Sage because I don't care for the randomness that the demon skills bring. I prefer more consistant damage, which is what sage gives.
I just got sage venomous scarab and the extra chi will make sure my chi stays high in things like TW when I always need it. Better than a 6 second debuff where its so short I may not even get another hit in before it ends.Main characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910
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