Base Magic Attack at 100th

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary
_WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
edited April 2009 in Cleric
Just a quick comparison with no opinions attached on 4 different builds. The same weapon is used for all 4 builds and stats are restricted to the weapons minimum requirements when needed:

The weapon:
✩✩Nature Talker

Level: 100
Str: 50
Mag: 300

Physical Atk: 663 - 995
Magic Atk: 1212 - 1481

Bonus:
Maximum Magic Attack +130
Magic +14~15
Critical Hit Rate +4%

The Builds ( note that no armor, rings, belts, or necklaces have been factored in. I've also left out the hp ):

Full Mag build ( 1 Str, 9 Mag every 2 levels ):
Physical Atk 912-1355
Magic Atk 7478-9753
Critical Hit 5%

Vit build ( 1 Vit, 1 Str, 8 Mag every 2 levels ):
Physical Atk 912-1355
Magic Atk 6888-8983
Critical Hit 5%

Full Vit build ( 2 Vit, 1 Str, 7 Mag every 2 levels ):
Physical Atk 912-1355
Magic Atk 6232-8127
Critical Hit 5%

LA build ( 2 Str, 2 Dex, 6 Mag every 2 levels ):
Physical Atk 1139-1692
Magic Atk 5576-7272
Critical Hit 10%

Anyone interested in hp or other additions/subtractions go here:
http://www.ecatomb.net/character.php
Mark 12:29-37
_WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
Post edited by _WillFire_ - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    By the way...I should make it know that I don't believe the % crit in this game.

    A 10% crit possibility should mean that you crit 100 times out of 1000 shots. or 1/10.

    This doesn't seem to be the case but I have no data to back it up.

    I personally have a 3% crit chance ( 30 out of 1000 or 1/33.3333 ) and it seems a bit off.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Forp - Heavens Tear
    Forp - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,445 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Full Mag build ( 1 Str, 9 Mag every 2 levels ):
    Physical Atk 912-1355
    Magic Atk 7478-9753
    Critical Hit 5%

    LA build ( 2 Str, 2 Dex, 6 Mag every 2 levels ):
    Physical Atk 1139-1692
    Magic Atk 5576-7272
    Critical Hit 10%


    Funny. That 2,000 magic attack is only equilivant to 100-200 damage, says light armor clerics.
  • Mikel_oru - Sanctuary
    Mikel_oru - Sanctuary Posts: 610 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Funny. That 2,000 magic attack is only equilivant to 100-200 damage, says light armor clerics.

    That 2k dmg gets reduced by the mob/player's resistance so it is small difference on the dmg caused. At least that's how it seems to me...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Mirathyl - Sanctuary
    Mirathyl - Sanctuary Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    It'd be nice to see how the reduction comes into play then. Say...

    a LA and a full MAG (of same level) using same NPC weapon shoot a video of killing the same type (and spec) of mob. Of course, it'd be nice to have their character/inventory page up in the video to verify the stat allocation and properties.

    Who would want to do this and what levels would we want to test?
    "We don't know what we're going to do when we get there, but we're not going to die without good reason."
    - Heero Yuy, Gundam Wing
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ~ Mirathyl
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Dmg reduction is against other people in pvp. 2k dmg if against proper target will have resistance of about 25% as their weaker defense if arcane or heavy. So 1500 dmg. Then only 25% dmg in pvp, which makes it 375.

    EDIT: Actually, I have 27% phys resist right now, and haven't even started doing refinement of phys def ornaments and the higher lvl +% phys def eq. So it can easily be 40%, meaning 300 dmg. I guess LA hopes the extra crit will make up the difference.
  • Inna - Heavens Tear
    Inna - Heavens Tear Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    the difference is just in magic attack alone. the actual damage we do from spells is based on a percentage of this magic attack. so the actual difference is greater.
  • Mikel_oru - Sanctuary
    Mikel_oru - Sanctuary Posts: 610 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    It would be nice to see a video with that test but we need 2 high lvl players so people won't start bitching about the lvl again and they need to have complete trust to each other since they would have to trade items unless they use NPC's items. I heard that they did this in the mage forums and the difference was 200 - 300 dmg but who knows without proof...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Full Mag build ( 1 Str, 9 Mag every 2 levels ):
    Physical Atk 912-1355
    Magic Atk 7478-9753
    Critical Hit 5%

    LA build ( 2 Str, 2 Dex, 6 Mag every 2 levels ):
    Physical Atk 1139-1692
    Magic Atk 5576-7272
    Critical Hit 10%


    Funny. That 2,000 magic attack is only equilivant to 100-200 damage, says light armor clerics.

    Thing is we don't have any data Forp. DOT might actually even things out a bit.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Mirathyl - Sanctuary
    Mirathyl - Sanctuary Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Mikel_oru - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It would be nice to see a video with that test but we need 2 high lvl players so people won't start bitching about the lvl again and they need to have complete trust to each other since they would have to trade items unless they use NPC's items. I heard that they did this in the mage forums and the difference was 200 - 300 dmg but who knows without proof...

    I was concerned about the trust issue as well which is why I mentioned the character and inventory screens and video instead of screenshots. I didn't plan on the test runners to use the same special equips, instead using the same type of NPC equips (weapon mostly, although wouldn't want either to die due to no defense xD).
    "We don't know what we're going to do when we get there, but we're not going to die without good reason."
    - Heero Yuy, Gundam Wing
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ~ Mirathyl
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Also remember that the LA crits roughly 1 in 10 times where the Full Mag does so only 1 in 20. In PvP or TW that can be quite a difference...especially when you factor in that AoE calculates hits individually.

    Of course no one is going to run around naked in PvP or TW.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Even a full mag will end up with a 20%+ crit rate at high lvl. Grind gear legendary eq, City of Abom rings, weapon, and armor means getting crit is not that hard.
  • Forp - Heavens Tear
    Forp - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,445 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Thing is we don't have any data Forp. DOT might actually even things out a bit.

    Dot evens it out..? What? How does that change the initial impact of that hit?

    level 90 light armored wizard with sage stone rain. He hits the almost 600 points less than someone his level, pure, using a normal level 10 sandstorm. Let's look at these 2 skills:

    Sage Stone Rain Level 11
    Range: 30.0 meters
    Mana: 375.0
    Channel: 2.0 seconds
    Cast: 1.4 seconds
    Cooldown: 6.0 seconds
    Weapon: Unarmed, Magic Instruments
    Requisite Cultivation: Aware of the Myriad

    A gigantic rock slams onto the target inflicting Earth damage equal to base magic attack plus 200% of weapon damage plus 4804.0.


    Sandstorm Level 10
    Range: 28.5 meters
    Mana: 337.5
    Channel: 2.5 seconds
    Cast: 1.5 seconds
    Cooldown: 6.0 seconds
    Weapon: Unarmed, Magic Instruments
    Requisite Cultivation: Aware of Discord

    Project a powerful wave of sand onto a target. Inflicts Earth damage equal to base magic attack plus 300% of weapon damage plus 4288.4 and decreases enemy's accuracy by 50% for 10 seconds.

    They're very close in stats, but the pure does almost 600 points more? Why is that? They're almost matched. Both have the same hh90 green weapon, though the light armored wizards weapon is +5, the pures is +4. Both have 2 flawless magic attack gems.

    The damage lost is more than what we can calculate, but it's definitely not as little as people say it is.
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Forp...I'm dealing with base magic damage alone and I could give a rats hind end about Wizzy damage at this point.

    By DOT I mean damage over time. Over 1000 hits.

    By the way...Sylvae...talking about a Full Mag getting 20% Crit...did you forget to factor in the LA cleric will always have a higher crit simply because of his dex? Also that he/she will be wearing armor that traditionally has +Dex which will raise his crit % even higher where the Mag won't? Also that he/she will have access to the same gear other than armor that the Mag will?

    This is why I kept this simple. Huge amount of variables and no data.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Mikel_oru - Sanctuary
    Mikel_oru - Sanctuary Posts: 610 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    By the way...to the person talking about a Full Mag getting 20% Crit...did you forget to factor in the LA cleric will always have a higher crit simply because of his dex? Also that he/she will be wearing armor that traditionally has +Dex which will raise his crit % even higher where the Mag won't? Also that he/she will have access to the same gear other than armor that the Mag will?

    Not to mention that to actually get that much crit rate you will need LOTS of money judging by the prices I see..
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Prof - Harshlands
    Prof - Harshlands Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Forp...I'm dealing with base magic damage alone and I could give a rats hind end about Wizzy damage at this point.
    i'm comparing light armor to pure. mage has the capability to do it as well. it's the same thing. relax, k.
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    By DOT I mean damage over time. Over 1000 hits.
    woah.. over 1000?
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Prof - Harshlands wrote: »
    i'm comparing light armor to pure. mage has the capability to do it as well. it's the same thing. relax, k.

    woah.. over 1000?

    Yeah...it's the normal sample. It may seem like a lot but it helps weed out the anomolies. Also when you are talking about a 1 in 10/20 chance it helps.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Rule - Heavens Tear
    Rule - Heavens Tear Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    About time the raw #'s were figured. Whether the extra crit % balances the overall dmg, or how far off over what period etc.
  • Imuretay - Heavens Tear
    Imuretay - Heavens Tear Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Mikel_oru - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That 2k dmg gets reduced by the mob/player's resistance so it is small difference on the dmg caused. At least that's how it seems to me...

    I have to agree with Forp here... the difference between the two builds does not get reduced by the resistances since both builds are affected the same way by the resistances.

    Let's do a little math now...

    Assumptions:
    Ignoring resistances since they apply to everyone.
    Full Mag (FM) Magic Atk 7478-9753 & Critical Hit 5% - Base MA = 7478
    LA Magic Atk 5576-7272 & Critical Hit 10% - Base MA = 5576
    Weapon Damage - 1212 - 1481
    Over time, the weapon damage will average out to 1346.5 (1212+1481=2693. 2693/2 = 1346.5) so that is what we'll use for weapon damage.

    Take a simple spell like lvl 10 Plume Shot: Inflicts physical damage equal to your base magic attack plus 100% of weapon damage plus 1379.6.

    FM damage output without crits = 7478+1346.5+1379.6 = 10204.1 per hit
    LA damage output without crits = 5576+1346.5+1379.6 = 8301.1 per hit

    The difference is the same as the difference in Mag Attack between the builds.

    Now we can account for crits... assume that the %'s are correctly applied over 1000 shots.

    FM: 10204.1*1000 = 10,204,100 damage in 1000 shots without crits...
    With 5% crit rate you go to 10204.1*950 = 9,693,895 (95% is "normal" hits) and 10,204.1*2*50 (for crits... basically double damage right?) = 1,020,410. For a total of 10,714,305 INCL. 5% crits. (9,693,895+1,020,410)

    LA: 8301.1*1000 = 8,301,100 damage in 1000 shots without crits...
    With 10% crit rate you go to 8301.1*900 = 7,470,990 (90% is "normal" hits) and 8301.1*2*100 (for crits) = 1,660,220. For a total of 9,131,210 INCL 10% crits. (7,470,990+1,660,220)

    So over 1000 shots you're looking at a difference of 1,583,095 damage. That equals 1,583.1 per shot. So at the levels that were given and the weapon that was given a LA cleric, when compared to FM cleric, is gimped by practically 1600 damage per shot.

    So unless I missed something in the damage equation, there you have it. Decide for yourselves if 1600 damage at lvl 100 with a good weapon is a big deal or not.

    Edit: that is only for Plume shot... the difference will be larger with more powerful spells...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    LA will have ( if I'm reading the data correctly ) a higher spike damage more often. Factor in both builds in PvP will be doing 25% of those numbers...I think that's what Forp was trying to get at. So about 400 damage difference.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Imuretay - Heavens Tear
    Imuretay - Heavens Tear Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    LA will have ( if I'm reading the data correctly ) a higher spike damage more often. Factor in both builds in PvP will be doing 25% of those numbers...I think that's what Forp was trying to get at. So about 400 damage difference.

    Ahhh... I see it now.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Tryagain - Harshlands
    Tryagain - Harshlands Posts: 716 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    It's actually less than that, because people have resistances. The resistances affect the end damage more on higher damage. Meaning, 10% reduction takes 100 off of 1000 base damage, whereas it only takes 90 off 900 base damage.

    Personally I think all wizards should be LA. However, this is the cleric forum, clerics don't crit heals. And their main role is not to kill people. So I think the higher heals are more important than crits.
  • Nelae - Heavens Tear
    Nelae - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    ~300dmg in pvp. Tho there are other things that might add more dmg, just one small modifier and you are looking on about ~1kdmg.
    But talking about this without testing it funny, and finding 2 clerics at lv100 xD
    Just put 2 ~80lv cleric vs same target and see.

    In pve its around ~2k dmg, how ever you turn it.
    b:dirty
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    ~300dmg in pvp. Tho there are other things that might add more dmg, just one small modifier and you are looking on about ~1kdmg.
    But talking about this without testing it funny, and finding 2 clerics at lv100 xD
    Just put 2 ~80lv cleric vs same target and see.

    In pve its around ~2k dmg, how ever you turn it.

    True...we are talking about base damage simply to keep us from going crazy trying to figure out all the variables. We can toss up hypothetical situations based on these figures but that is all they are. Even with all the variables accounted for there is no accounting for skill. The best equip/spells will do you no good if you don't know how/when to use them. So take stuff like this with a bit of salt.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Samalia - Sanctuary
    Samalia - Sanctuary Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    light armor clerics never seem to really believe the numbers that are presented to them.
    for example their magic attack is like 25% less that a full mage cleric and they say "oh well my crit rate makes up for it"

    now let me get started on crits.
    1% crit rate means you do double damage 1/100 hits. so thats a 1% damage increase due to crits.
    now a light armor cleric says their crit rate makes up for the 25% less base damage they do.
    a lv 100 pure mage cleric would have a crit rate of around 15% with their armors and rings and whatnot. and this base crit rate goes for all clerics lv 100.
    for the extra agility added by lv 100 thats 100 or so agility which equals +5 crit rate! 15+5 = 20, that means they have an average of 5% damage over a pure magic cleric due to crits. but the pure magic build has 25% more damage over them ALWAYS!!

    in order for a light armor cleric to equal out in damage to a pure magic cleric they would need to add 20% more critical rate onto their already 5% greater critical rate of 20%

    so for all you light armor clerics: please!! by all means!! show me your 40% crit rate!!

    a light armor cleric will never out damage a pure magic cleric, i dont see why anyone even thinks they have a chance.
  • ADvEnTcUrSe - Sanctuary
    ADvEnTcUrSe - Sanctuary Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    crit or not, the reason you go to light armor is to have a higher physical def.
    therefore taking away some of your points into magic. . of course your not going to do as much damage as a full int build. . why do people continue to fight on this

    just look at it on the most basic level everyone b:bye
  • Shano - Lost City
    Shano - Lost City Posts: 289 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Full mageb:bye
  • Imuretay - Heavens Tear
    Imuretay - Heavens Tear Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    ADvEnTcUrSe - Sanctuary wrote: »
    crit or not, the reason you go to light armor is to have a higher physical def.
    therefore taking away some of your points into magic. . of course your not going to do as much damage as a full int build. . why do people continue to fight on this

    just look at it on the most basic level everyone b:bye

    I don't think the issue is whether a LA cleric can out-damage a full int cleric, but whether or not the added durability of light armor is worth the damage reduction necessary to use light armor. LA clerics say yes, full int clerics say no.

    Basically though... to each his own!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MystiMonk - Sanctuary
    MystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Those some pretty good stats.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • Rinnve - Lost City
    Rinnve - Lost City Posts: 473 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Samalia - Sanctuary wrote: »
    for example their magic attack is like 25% less that a full mage cleric and they say "oh well my crit rate makes up for it"
    [...]
    now a light armor cleric says their crit rate makes up for the 25% less base damage they do.

    25% less matk =/= 25% less dmg 'cause of good fixed part of all attacks. It's more like 8-10% on 8X-9X.
    --
    PWonline.ru, Sirius: Иней, 70 cleric - off.
    PWI, Lost City: Rinnve, 7X wiz (frozen);
    Allods Online, Раскол: Риннве, 2X occultist

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