Help me out with my veno

Wikd - Heavens Tear

ok im making a veno and ive mainly been working on scarab attaks but i need to no which way to go im wearing arcane armor i wanna be good at pvp and solo so i jus need to no which pets i need and which skills to lvl dun wanna waste my skill points for nuttin

wikkid86

Wikd - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ok im making a veno and ive mainly been working on scarab attaks but i need to no which way to go im wearing arcane armor i wanna be good at pvp and solo so i jus need to no which pets i need and which skills to lvl dun wanna waste my skill points for nuttin

Uhm.. xD Arcane is for PvP DDer. I wouldn't suggest this build at first since you probably won't be used to it and might become frustrated with its early delicateness. So, I suggest you either go Light or Heavy, most of the people in this game with a Veno use Light so you could ask mostly anybody for tips and hints about that build.

The fact that your name is very similar to mine flatters me. b:laugh

Soul_Thunder - Sanctuary_1254490888

since you want to go pvp, there are two most used builds for that:
a)light armor (3int 1str 1dex every lvl)
b)arcane robe (3vit 1str 6int every 2 lvls)
but, the downside is that you won't be lvling as fast as the pve pure int build.

for skills, look at the stick in the venomancer forum
basically as caster, you will be using the skill which you start out with, venomous sacrab (i think that's what it's called)

different strategies and skills are used when facing different classes
mage skills for heavy armors and fox skill for arcane robers

you pet can play a very big part in your pvp
if you want best performance in pvp, it involves, what i would like to call, a "cheat", but more commonly known as "phoenix". it's a VERY expensive pet (i won't say rare, cos a lot of ppl have them). be prepared to pay millions for them (not very sure about the exactly price)
give phoenix the 'ripping bite' skill and you will kill others easily in pvp.

for pve, you'll want to have an air pet (sawfly), one pdef pet (golem), one water pet (turtle). give them the skill bash and other useful skills (i'm not goin to list them all)
if you are very rich, you can spend another few million and get yourself the other venomancer only cheat: the all mighty hercules. give it bash also btw

hope my two cents worth can help you

drizzito

Veon's can be a tricky build since you can go melee, caster, or some mix of both. I would recomend choosing melee or caster. If you go with a mix your magic attack and melee attack will be gimped. Since it sounds like you are going with a caster veno stick with the arcane armors, because if you go with light or heavy armor you will have to put points into str and dex and end up gimping your magic attack. I know your thinking but the p.def of arcane robes is so low, thats why so many veno's wear light or heavy armor and sacrifice magic attack, but there is a way around the low p.def of arcane robes.

So how do you solve the p.def problem of robes and get the max magic attack possible? The answer is simple:
1. garnet soul gems
2. procure as much 3 star gear with 2-4 sockets as possible
3. use protection belts and rings (of course 3 star if possible)

This strategy can't match heavy armor, but it will come damn close to light armor. If you up your p.def this way you don't need to spend extra points in vit. I have done this with my veno, who is lvl 46, and my p.def is 1033. I was comparing stats with a lvl 53 blademaster in my faction and his p.def was 1200. Which isn't a big difference.

The build that have been following is:
1 str every 2 lvl's
1 vit every 3 lvl's
every thing else in mag

Hope this helps you

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

@drizzito the BM you compared to is utter garbage if that is his pdef(he should prob quit the game),also as armor gets higher leveled pdef shards will help less and less, hp shards please.

Maiya - Lost City

What in the world is that BM wearing? My level 27 barb has more defense than that (in human form).

drizzito

@obsessed, it's a trade off. High p.def low hp or High hp low p.def. I don't know if there is a substancial difference, but I seem to last longer with the added p.def than hp. I looked at the numbers between the highest lvl hp and p.def gems and there is a difference. The hghest lvl hp gem gives you +150 hp. The highest lvl p.def gives you +170 p.def. In my gear I have 16 sockets. If I went with the hp gem that would be +2400 hp. If I went with p.def that would give me +2720 p.def. I would rather have the extra p.def

Sigr - Heavens Tear

Soul_thunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

you pet can play a very big part in your pvp
if you want best performance in pvp, it involves, what i would like to call, a "cheat", but more commonly known as "phoenix". it's a VERY expensive pet (i won't say rare, cos a lot of ppl have them). be prepared to pay millions for them (not very sure about the exactly price)
give phoenix the 'ripping bite' skill and you will kill others easily in pvp.

It's much cheaper to get a Petite Sawfly and give it Flesh Ream (Ripping Bite on other versions).

Daerys - Sanctuary

drizzito wrote: »

@obsessed, it's a trade off. High p.def low hp or High hp low p.def. I don't know if there is a substancial difference, but I seem to last longer with the added p.def than hp. I looked at the numbers between the highest lvl hp and p.def gems and there is a difference. The hghest lvl hp gem gives you +150 hp. The highest lvl p.def gives you +170 p.def. In my gear I have 16 sockets. If I went with the hp gem that would be +2400 hp. If I went with p.def that would give me +2720 p.def. I would rather have the extra p.def

P.def only helps against half the classes. HP works against everything. Just something to think about.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Daerys - Sanctuary wrote: »

P.def only helps against half the classes. HP works against everything. Just something to think about.

HP doesn't really "help", it just lets you soak up more damage until dead. The total amount of damage you take remains unchanged (aside from the being dead thing).

p.def and m.def reduce the damage you take. So you can repair the damage with less time or fewer pots/heals.

Which is preferable depends on your playstyle and circumstances. For venos it gets more complicated because of Soul Transfusion, Metabolic Boost, and Nature's Grace. Maximizing the effectiveness of ST means having as few hp and as many mp as possible. But maximizing the effectiveness of MB and NG means having as many hp and mp as possible. Decisions, decisions...

Sigr - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

HP doesn't really "help", it just lets you soak up more damage until dead. The total amount of damage you take remains unchanged (aside from the being dead thing).

p.def and m.def reduce the damage you take. So you can repair the damage with less time or fewer pots/heals.

Which is preferable depends on your playstyle and circumstances. For venos it gets more complicated because of Soul Transfusion, Metabolic Boost, and Nature's Grace. Maximizing the effectiveness of ST means having as few hp and as many mp as possible. But maximizing the effectiveness of MB and NG means having as many hp and mp as possible. Decisions, decisions...

Health shards still help more than a minor increase in P. Def or M. Def, and a mage veno already has a large mana pool so increasing their health pool will help a lot more with survivability while also increasing the amount healed by Metabolic Boost.

It's important to remember that your health pool is how much damage you can take before you die, and increasing that give you more room for error and accounting for lagg which a minimal increase in armor never will give you.

drizzito

Don't get me wrong people hp is important but it isn't everything with survivability. I put 1 vit every 3 levels for some extra hp. If you have high hp and low p.def you still die quickly. And yes p.def only reduces melee, damage which is the main problem for a veno, but as a mage veno you alredy have a high m.def so you don't have to worry about that. Also Sigr, it is more that a minimal increase in armor. Without the p.def gems i would have a p.def around 250. With the stones I am at 1033 p.def. I call 5 times the p.def significant. I also don't have the highest lvl stones possible in my gear so I can get it higher. And you only talk about Metabolic Boost. Did you forget about Soul Transfusion? Metabolic boost is good but it has a long cool down so it's more of a last ditch thing.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

drizzito wrote: »

Don't get me wrong people hp is important but it isn't everything with survivability. I put 1 vit every 3 levels for some extra hp. If you have high hp and low p.def you still die quickly. And yes p.def only reduces melee, damage which is the main problem for a veno, but as a mage veno you alredy have a high m.def so you don't have to worry about that. Also Sigr, it is more that a minimal increase in armor. Without the p.def gems i would have a p.def around 250. With the stones I am at 1033 p.def. I call 5 times the p.def significant. I also don't have the highest lvl stones possible in my gear so I can get it higher. And you only talk about Metabolic Boost. Did you forget about Soul Transfusion? Metabolic boost is good but it has a long cool down so it's more of a last ditch thing.

" I call 5 times the p.def significant."

5 x 0 = 0, you cant call multiplication factors signifigant as low numbers multiply into .. low numbers. Light armor will give you a higher pdef(obviously) and then you can use those empty slots for hp for further survivability. (also your example 250/1033 would be closer to 4times)

Also I dont know what level you are but based on what you've said, you've spent a hell of a lot of money on shards. Averages add 26pdef, 788/26 = 30 shards, its not even possible to wear that much, so your exagerating somewhere or using Godly lvl 12 shards lmao. In that same amount you could have 750 worth of hp shards, which would be alot more beneficial to overall survivability imo. I dont know the damage reduction formula, but I would assume the higher hp benefit would benefit more then the reduction.


Sidenote: I wish people with low post count would show their character portraits.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Sigr - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's important to remember that your health pool is how much damage you can take before you die, and increasing that give you more room for error and accounting for lagg which a minimal increase in armor never will give you.

Thing is a 10% increase in hp and a 10% reduction in damage both equal the same increase in how much damage you can take before you die. But the 10% reduction also represents a decrease in DPS and is thus easier to heal.

Playing with the numbers, it certainly looks like the game balance is skewed so that +150 hp gives more benefit than +170 def. By my back of the envelope calc, +150 hp gives about 2x the benefit of +170 def for a lvl 80 veno. But if you've got a cleric healing or are taking constant damage, the +def is going to let you do things you couldn't survive with the +hp. The +hp will primarily protect against spike damage, which is why it's so popular in PvP.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

" I call 5 times the p.def significant."

5 x 0 = 0, you cant call multiplication factors signifigant as low numbers multiply into .. low numbers. Light armor will give you a higher pdef(obviously) and then you can use those empty slots for hp for further survivability. (also your example 250/1033 would be closer to 4times)

If you work out the math, the geometric increase in p.def is irrelevant. Adding 750 pdef increases your survival time (number of extra hits you can take until dead) by the same amount whether you have 0 initial p.def or 5000 initial p.def.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

I realize this Solandri, I was actually looking for that thread lol. Well no need for me to go into much detail what I meant, as you nailed it on your first post. 150hp could reasonable be 10% of someones hp, but 170pdef isnt going to be anywhere near the same reduction.

Basically it helps more, and on top of that isnt only catered to physical.(Granted its going to be higher potion costs and such, but in terms of survivabilty at least, hp seems overall the best)

Sigr - Heavens Tear

drizzito wrote: »

Also Sigr, it is more that a minimal increase in armor. Without the p.def gems i would have a p.def around 250. With the stones I am at 1033 p.def. I call 5 times the p.def significant. I also don't have the highest lvl stones possible in my gear so I can get it higher.

I can't get my armor higher than 1033 P. Def, but it didn't cost me over 14m coins to infuse shards and buy gear off the AH, either.

drizzito

I took a closer look at my armor and I was wrong, the shards only double my p.def Some of my armor has extra p.def on it. I haven't sunk a ton of money into shards, I buy my armor from the AH, so the shards are already socketed. So I did some calculation according to the table Solandri posted a link to and this is what I got. Between all my armor I can socket 16 shards. None of the p.def shards I have socketed give more than +26 p.def.

I am a lvl 46 veno with 1400 hp and 1033 p.def. According to that table that gives me a damage reduction of 33.3%. I am currently killing lvl 51 mobs that do physical damage of 326-398 according to the pwdatabase. So the median physical damage is 362. With damage reduction, physical damage would be 241. So with my current hp and p.def i could take 5.8 hits. If I switched all the p.def shards for the +25 hp shards that would give me 1800 hp and no damage reduction so I could take 4.97 hits. Not a big difference, but I can take a little bit more damage with the added p.def.

I wanted to see how big the difference would be with the at lvl 90 with the high lvl shards. If I keep with my current build I will have 2544 hp at lvl 90. I figure at lvl 90 I wll have around 952 p.def just from the arcane robes(I checked the armors stats). I should be able to keep have the same number of sockets. With the +170 p.def shards it would give me 3672 p.def which would give me a damage reduction of 60% according to the table. According to the pwdatabase a lvl 90 Celeseido BlizzAntilope has a physical damage range of 1756-3485. So the median physical damage would be 2621. With the damage reduction, physical damage would be 1048 so I could take 2.4 hits. If I went with the +150 hp shards i would have 4944 hp, so i would be able to take 1.88 hits.

So I don't see where you get 2x the benifit from the hp shards. Maybe I'm forgeting to factor something in or doing the calculations wrong, but it looks to me like you have a slight adavantage with the p.def shards.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

drizzito wrote: »

I am a lvl 46 veno with 1400 hp and 1033 p.def. According to that table that gives me a damage reduction of 33.3%. I am currently killing lvl 51 mobs that do physical damage of 326-398 according to the pwdatabase. So the median physical damage is 362. With damage reduction, physical damage would be 241. So with my current hp and p.def i could take 5.8 hits. If I switched all the p.def shards for the +25 hp shards that would give me 1800 hp and no damage reduction so I could take 4.97 hits. Not a big difference, but I can take a little bit more damage with the added p.def.

Just wanted to point out that you did your calculation in the case of HP shards incorrectly. You assumed if you put all your shards into HP gems, and had 1800 HP, that your physical resistance would be 0. Since i dont know the actual figure, other then you said it would be about half, i will assume your p.def would be in the neighborhood of 500, which would grant an 18-20% reduction in damage. This means each shot would not do 362 damage, but rather about 297 damage. Thus allowing you to survive for 6.1 hits. Again it not a big difference, but does allow you to in fact survive 1 more hit having the extra HP. In addition, since p.def doesnt help you at all vs. magic mobs, the increase is of greater benefit to you when fighting them.

In short, the calculations have been done many times, by many people, and HP shards > p.def or m.def shards.

Oh and in what world are you using +170 p.def shards end game? those cost 7 billion (yes billion, not million) coins each. You'll be using anywhere from Average (60k each) @ +16 p.def to Immaculate (4.5 million coin each) @ +32 p.def each, depending on your wealth. Noone can afford tier 12 shards, and you should be shot for even thinking of using those in your end game calculations.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

The DR varies with level, and only applies to mobs of the same level as you. The examples I gave in the link were specific to level 50 for illustration. The actual (approximated) formula is:

DR% = 100*def / (def+40*level)

Using your stats:

drizzito wrote: »

Between all my armor I can socket 16 shards. None of the p.def shards I have socketed give more than +26 p.def.

I am a lvl 46 veno with 1400 hp and 1033 p.def. According to that table that gives me a damage reduction of 33.3%. I am currently killing lvl 51 mobs that do physical damage of 326-398 according to the pwdatabase. So the median physical damage is 362. With damage reduction, physical damage would be 241. So with my current hp and p.def i could take 5.8 hits. If I switched all the p.def shards for the +25 hp shards that would give me 1800 hp and no damage reduction so I could take 4.97 hits. Not a big difference, but I can take a little bit more damage with the added p.def.

L46 w/ 1400 hp and 1033 p.def you'd have 36% DR. With nominal damage of 362, this results in 232 per hit, allowing you to survive 6.0 hits.

I'm a little confused about your config with +hp shards. You say none of your p.def shards give more than +26, but you also assume you have 0 p.def to arrive at 4.97 hits til dead. +26 p.def * 16 slots is only 416 p.def, meaning you must still have at least 617 p.def in the +hp shard config. That results in 25% damage reduction, and lets you survive 6.6 hits.

I wanted to see how big the difference would be with the at lvl 90 with the high lvl shards. If I keep with my current build I will have 2544 hp at lvl 90. I figure at lvl 90 I wll have around 952 p.def just from the arcane robes(I checked the armors stats). I should be able to keep have the same number of sockets. With the +170 p.def shards it would give me 3672 p.def which would give me a damage reduction of 60% according to the table. According to the pwdatabase a lvl 90 Celeseido BlizzAntilope has a physical damage range of 1756-3485. So the median physical damage would be 2621. With the damage reduction, physical damage would be 1048 so I could take 2.4 hits. If I went with the +150 hp shards i would have 4944 hp, so i would be able to take 1.88 hits.

At L90, 2544 hp, and 952 p.def unsocketed, adding 16 +170 p.def shards gives you 3672 p.def yielding 50.5% damage reduction. Against 2621 nominal damage, this would result in 1297 damage per hit, meaning you'd survive 1.96 hits.

Swapping the +p.def shards for +150 hp shards would give you 4944 hp and 952 p.def, yielding 20.9% damage reduction. Against 2621 nominal damage, this would result in 2073 damage per hit, meaning you'd survive 2.39 hits.

So I don't see where you get 2x the benifit from the hp shards. Maybe I'm forgeting to factor something in or doing the calculations wrong, but it looks to me like you have a slight adavantage with the p.def shards.

Consider the base case of no shards. L90, 2544 hp, 952 p.def. At 20.9% DR, you'd survive 1.23 hits.

+p.def shards give an improvement of 1.96 - 1.23 = 0.73 hits
+hp shards give an improvement of 2.39 - 1.23 = 1.16 hits

1.16 / 0.73 = 1.59, which is why I said about 2x the benefit. I assumed higher p.def in the base case (you're also going to have jewelery and armor bonuses, some of which will likely add p.def), which shifts the ratio higher.

All that said, this comparisons (hits until dead) is only really useful if you're not getting healed (which is probably the case for a veno). If you are getting healed, then the cleric only needs to heal 1297 damage per hit if you have +p.def shards, but has to heal 2073 damage per hit if you have +hp shards. That's a pretty substantial difference. If you were tanking (barbs argue about this stuff to), it would mean you could tank a mob with 60% more damage output and still have the cleric keep you alive.