Under-used pets in PWI #3 - Eldergoth Marksman

bobbeh

A follow up to my series of related pet threads:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=122111
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=126081

The pet I will be discussing is the Eldergoth Marksman, or the underrated pet that could as I call it. I've decided look for an another pet in my pet bag after giving my windsprint panther away to a friend. Being a regular visitor of twilight temple where the magmite didn't work too well at pulling because it was so slow, I thought it might be worthwhile to try out a ranged pet. I took the Eldergoth Marksman to the cube and got him all the way from lvl41 to lvl 57 before including him next to my main squad of carapest terror (edit: now replaced with a frog), turtle (didn't bother to unhatch it, it's level 50 something), volcanic magmite and petite sawfly (they are all in their 60s now). My squad's pretty cookie-cutter but after all, I'm more into efficiency more than the unique factor.

Stats:
Here's the stats of the Eldergoth Marksman at level 90 (If you decides to take it that far):

taken from: http://ecatomb.net/petstat.php

Caught at level 41
HP: 2856
Attack: 3162
Attack speed: 0.5
Physical Defense: 6271
Magical Defense: 6841
Accuracy: 1757
Dodge: 1171
Movement spd: 7.8

Now, stats-wise the Eldergoth doesn't win anything. It's got high'ish HP hampered by sub-par physical and magical defense and high attack that's hampered by its low 0.5 attack speed. So clearly, it doesn't win any awards of any aspect.

What separates the Eldergoth from the 99% of all other pets is its unique ability of using ranged attacks, by simply turning off the skill (right-click the skill, i.e. bash to turn it off.)

1. Doing the impossible: out-tanking hercules?
Now, how exactly does the Eldergoth Marksman found en-masses in swiftwind out-tank a cash shop pet that cost hundreds of dollars to put together and almost doubling the Eldergoth Marksman in raw defensive stats?

It's because of the Eldergoth Marksman's ranged normal attack.

It does happens in several occasions against specific enemies. Typically they are bosses with an AOE attack where a venomancer with a regular pet would be in the AOE range of the boss. I'll give 2 example that will typical require an organised party to tackle.

Slitt: AOE mana drain, Strong Melee but weak ranged attack
Empyrean slithers: AOE lower life, AOE sleep, Strong melee weak ranged.

It might take a while to do, but it works very well.

There might be more (suzerix etc?) bosses the eldergoth marksman will be able to tank, so its up to you players to experiment on.

2. Cheap grinding partner that holds every single aggro
I'm level 60 something, almost pure MAG. I've realised that my magmite was not able to hold the aggro at all when I got my hand on the TT weapon simple because my damage was too high. To ease out the problem I would have to either slow down my attack (which destroys the whole point of being a full MAG veno), or spend millions of coins on new skills, knowing that I will eventually switch to the hercules in the future.

Because of the increasing grinding demand at higher level, clearly I'll want a pet that will hold an aggro without me spending a fortune. The Eldergoth marksman is the PERFECT candidate.

Although it has a low 0.5 attack speed, it's high base damage makes it perfect match with AGGRO holding skills. Not only that, it comes with default 3 of the best aggro skills. Level 4 Bash, Level 1 roar and Level 1 pierce. All for FREE..

Not only that, because of its ranged normal attack, it can easily grab mobs that are chasing you and giving you time to run/fly away.

It does run into the risk of getting ganged because of its sub-par defensive stats, but good playing style will minimise that risk.

3. Pulling mobs
It's alot better than the magmite and does it very well, that's all I can say. Never bothered with kowlin so I'm not in a position to compare.

Q&A

NOTE: ALL BOSSES ARE DONE AT LEVEL 64 AND WITH THE PET AT LEVEL 61

Q: I tried to tank empyrean slither and why does he still AOE sleep me when I kept the maximum healing distance? :(:(

A: You might have kept the maximum healing distance, but you didn't keep the maximum healing distance AND the maximum distance from his AOE. To do that your the boss, the pet and you must be in a straight line (not healing from an angle). Refer to the screenshots:
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3259/20090129031325bf1.jpg

Q: I tried to keep the maximum distance from slitt but he still AOE Mana burn me

A: Slitt is a tricky one. To keep a maximum distance away from his AOE you would need to be healing your pet from a downward slope/pit - It might take several attempts to get it right. There's also few snake dude that moves around the same pathway as slitt, but some correct positioning can stop your pet from luring them. Refer to the screenshot I've posted for more info:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5287/20090129025800lj0.jpg


Q: What level will I be able to solo Suzerix?

A: I did suzerix at level 63 with level 7 pet heal but it didn't take much effort to keep my pet alive (maybe 1 heal every 5 hits or something.). I've also found that I have a few metres spare from his AOE range so I suspect he might be soloable at level 43 (with level 5 pet heal) and with a decent weapon at maximum healing range. I'm not sure but I would like to know. Will someone care to test it out?

Taking on suzerix while not getting harmed in the process:
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8444/20090129032758vp2.jpg

Q: Which magical tank is better, the frog or the carapest terror?

A: Both are EQUAL, PERIOD.

Semyezza - Heavens Tear

-cough- Increased grinding time my ****. Starting lvl 70, my WQ takes so much time, I now have lvl 71 quests to do ON TOP of my lvl 72 quests. I'm glad I finished my Spiritual Cultivation (the one still going after FB69).

And your golem must be utter suckage. Mine holds aggro pretty sweetly, even with me firing round after round after round. I switched to my lvl 72 Shaodu Cub as my main tank (small but just as good imo) and even HE holds aggro well.

Granted, I kill a mob three levels higher within 15 seconds, but yeah... I never much bothered with the giant ape because 1) it's way under my level now anyway and it'd be a bother to get to 72. 2) I never had to look for alternative pets, because mine worked just as well.

bobbeh

Semyezza - Heavens Tear wrote: »

-cough- Increased grinding time my ****. Starting lvl 70, my WQ takes so much time, I now have lvl 71 quests to do ON TOP of my lvl 72 quests. I'm glad I finished my Spiritual Cultivation (the one still going after FB69).

And your golem must be utter suckage. Mine holds aggro pretty sweetly, even with me firing round after round after round. I switched to my lvl 72 Shaodu Cub as my main tank (small but just as good imo) and even HE holds aggro well.

Granted, I kill a mob three levels higher within 15 seconds, but yeah... I never much bothered with the giant ape because 1) it's way under my level now anyway and it'd be a bother to get to 72. 2) I never had to look for alternative pets, because mine worked just as well.

Read this part.

"or spend millions of coins on new skills, knowing that I will eventually switch to the hercules in the future."

I'd rather save the money and get the hercules sooner, because while the golem is quite good, it's not quite endgame is it? It's hard to believe if you manage to keep an AGGRO with base golem skills. If you decided to add skills to both your shadou cub and golem knowing that they'll become obsolete once you get your hand on hercules, then go ahead.

And grinding is not entirely about EXP. I also grind for drops. I kill fast at a minimum risk so what's your problem?

ShiraAburame - Heavens Tear

Your Magmite HAS to be complete suckage. Compare the stats of it to the Eldergoth on the same page you got the Eldergoth stats. At lvl 90, the Magmite has much higher HP, attack, and p.def plus it's not going to kite the mob it's tanking straight into a bunch of other mobs (which you would have to try to pick off yourself). The only thing the Magmite doesn't have over the Eldergoth is m.def, but the Antelope is used for a magic tank anyway.

And for future reference, I use a Scorpion and a Quadrastral Beetle King and BOTH of them hold aggro with basic skills.

swiftlikeafox

I don't think you guys are being very open minded here, the fact is if properly played an eldergoth probably WOULD be better for tanking an AOE boss, simply for it's ranged ability which might allow you to sit outside of the AOE range and spam heal. I keep one in my pet bag(mostly for the cool factor though).... who WOULDN'T want a giant ape following them around???

Kuschel - Lost City

Those bosses your referred to only have AoE debuffs, not AoE attacks... so it doesn't matter if I'm debuffed, my Herc will still always be the best tank.

Lv 45 Herc... it's got over 11k P.Def thanks to the Lv 5 Strong it comes with. Also 2110 HP...

I dunno what it's gonna look like Lv 7x 8x or 9x... but it's stupid strong. Also the M.Def is able to be buffed +150%, and the reflect helps to hold aggro while my Lv 3 Bash just makes sure it does.

So what if I have lower HP debuff? My herc's the one that's tanking not me lmao.

Mana drain?

That's the price you pay for solo'ing a boss when you can get a party to help you with it any time.

Like anything, there are good things and bad things about solo. Good things and bad things about groups.

All I know is that the only boss my Herc wasn't able to tank was Krixxix at Lv 3x.

I killed Shade Eido, Dismal Shade, my Fb19 I tanked the last boss solo at Lv 19 for fun. ((Not during my Fb run)).

The last time I checked, it was the Herc pet that made it able to run solo HH on squad mode, not the Eldergoth.

If you really don't wanna get messed up by the AoEs for some reason, thennnn yeah sure.

In the end Herc > all tanks. :P

Xchandra - Heavens Tear

Do you guys even KNOW how to read.?

Seriously. Read the op's post again and then read yours /facepalm.

the op is showing an alternitive pet to use. BEFORE SHE CAN GET HIS HANDS ON A HERCULES.

the op mentioned that the stats of the pet are INFERIOR TO OTHER PETS FOR THE JOB . and it only shines due to its RANGED ATTACK.

the op did clarify on herpost that she REFUSES TO PAY for skills on a pet he will eventually eliminate because the op plans to get a Hercules and is saving coin for the Hercules. This Pet is a CHEAP alternative since it comes packed with good tanking skills.

Seriously Learn how to read.

Also there is no problem with someone who decides not to follow the same method of play as 99% of the other venos are doing. Its OBIOUS that the op knows her pets weaknesses and worked around them.

bobbeh

Your Magmite HAS to be complete suckage. Compare the stats of it to the Eldergoth on the same page you got the Eldergoth stats. At lvl 90, the Magmite has much higher HP, attack, and p.def plus it's not going to kite the mob it's tanking straight into a bunch of other mobs (which you would have to try to pick off yourself). The only thing the Magmite doesn't have over the Eldergoth is m.def, but the Antelope is used for a magic tank anyway.

And for future reference, I use a Scorpion and a Quadrastral Beetle King and BOTH of them hold aggro with basic skills.

Look at the link again please. And get a green-glowing weapon before making the statement again.

Mana drain?

That's the price you pay for solo'ing a boss when you can get a party to help you with it any time.

Like anything, there are good things and bad things about solo. Good things and bad things about groups.

All I know is that the only boss my Herc wasn't able to tank was Krixxix at Lv 3x.

I killed Shade Eido, Dismal Shade, my Fb19 I tanked the last boss solo at Lv 19 for fun. ((Not during my Fb run)).

The last time I checked, it was the Herc pet that made it able to run solo HH on squad mode, not the Eldergoth.

If you really don't wanna get messed up by the AoEs for some reason, thennnn yeah sure.

No one likes to do both Empyrean slithers and slitt because of the AOE (slitt's mana drain kills hieros and empyreans... well...) and being in faction I have the duty to helping the lower levels when the higher levels are busy doing grinding/doing their FBs.

You should try taking on those 2 bosses with your hercules and then come back to this thread. Thank you.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

@above
I've solod both of them, with phoenix and hercules and even my magmite.

Magmite is one of the best aggro holders in the game from all the pets I've tried btw. If your pure mag you'd prob need to upgrade bash though(which would hardly cost millions as your OP suggested) and well worth the price.

Renara - Heavens Tear

Wonderful analysis and great writing, Bobbeh! Please keep up the fine work. I'm 85% of the way to my Hercules, but the Eldergoth Marksman might still deserve a slot in my pet bag for his ranged abilities.

You touched on the subject of pulling, but a little more detail might help. A ranged pet should be able to lure more safely because it doesn't have to get as close as a melee pet, meaning that you in turn can be farther away, right? Extra distance would give you more time to summon your tanking pet before the incoming mob reaches you.

The Eldergoth Marksman might also be helpful against mobs that flee from melee pets. I remember having so much trouble with Pyrogolth Hierarchs and Ambassadors running to their friends that I gave up using a pet at all against them. In fb51, melee pets chase enemies up the canyon walls, where neither players nor pets can reach them.

Many thanks for your informative posts.

bobbeh

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@above
I've solod both of them, with phoenix and hercules and even my magmite.

Magmite is one of the best aggro holders in the game from all the pets I've tried btw. If your pure mag you'd prob need to upgrade bash though(which would hardly cost millions as your OP suggested) and well worth the price.

I find the solo'ing empyrean with magmite part unbelievable. Meanwhile I can see Slitt being solo'd without much problem if you prepare to take some denting on your hiero. Care to post some screenshot to disapprove me?

You touched on the subject of pulling, but a little more detail might help. A ranged pet should be able to lure more safely because it doesn't have to get as close as a melee pet, meaning that you in turn can be farther away, right? Extra distance would give you more time to summon your tanking pet before the incoming mob reaches you.

Sorry I couldn't include more info. on the pulling part. I do solo TT1-1 runs but usually pulling's not an issue at my level. Never tried kowlin.

I've heard that in the latter TT instances, the kowlin will be able to pull mobs better than eldergoth marksman, but im not too sure about that.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

@bobbeh at level 81 not much is hard lol..

Also I dont use an mp heiro. As for magmite vs emyprian, it was a hassle with cleric buffs and channeling gear, spamming heals and sleep got it killed once, brambled up and resummoned.. so, wouldnt really care to do it again to get you proof lol.
(oh sidenote, if you have apothecary 4, you could try to make some soulcleanse orbs, says removes all debuffs, I assume it would work with sleep as well. I could be wrong)

I'll be honest, I havent tried an eldergoth, so I am intrigued as to whether or not the range does actually get you out of the sleep distance, and if he has enough defenses to survive empyerian.

bobbeh

I've updated with some screenshots. Thanks to those who actually read the thread.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

Thanks for the screenshot demonstrations.

Semyezza - Heavens Tear

bobbeh wrote: »

Read this part.

"or spend millions of coins on new skills, knowing that I will eventually switch to the hercules in the future."

I'd rather save the money and get the hercules sooner, because while the golem is quite good, it's not quite endgame is it? It's hard to believe if you manage to keep an AGGRO with base golem skills. If you decided to add skills to both your shadou cub and golem knowing that they'll become obsolete once you get your hand on hercules, then go ahead.

And grinding is not entirely about EXP. I also grind for drops. I kill fast at a minimum risk so what's your problem?

Unfortunately I'm not rich and can't afford to buy it. I'd love to have one, and maybe I should start collecting. But not for another 6 - 12 months, at least.

TigerLily - Lost City

I actually got an eldergoth pet for my venomancer for just that reason.
Im to cheap (or poor) to waste like 1 mil on uppgrade gollem skills - since i rather save they money to get herc and later phoenix. Also alot of mobs kite the gollem like crazy during those lvl 40-60 lowbie quests, so the eldergoth has been really nice for that with the range atk. But im pretty sure i wont keep it in my pet slot til lvl 90+ b:chuckle

sotsf

Hi, I have a few newbe questions.

When I fought antelope pup (sp?) it had a ranged attack. Does it still retain it after its tamed ?

If so then..
Only regarding magic boss fights, won't antelope pup be a better pet than Eldergoth Marksman ? Since it has better magic resistance, and does range attacks ?

Only asking because I don't know the answer and I don't have either of these pets.
This is a very good thread for us newbe venos

Heleina - Sanctuary

Don't have much to comment on. Just want to say that it's an interesting analysis and commentary on an uncommon veno pet.

Thanks for your time and sharing - keep it up b:victory

Solandri - Heavens Tear

bobbeh wrote: »

Q: Which magical tank is better, the frog or the carapest terror?

A: Both are EQUAL, PERIOD.

LOL.

Love your series. Keep it up.

bobbeh

sotsf wrote: »

Hi, I have a few newbe questions.

When I fought antelope pup (sp?) it had a ranged attack. Does it still retain it after its tamed ?

If so then..
Only regarding magic boss fights, won't antelope pup be a better pet than Eldergoth Marksman ? Since it has better magic resistance, and does range attacks ?

Only asking because I don't know the answer and I don't have either of these pets.
This is a very good thread for us newbe venos

If I remember correctly, only the antelope's skill is ranged. Not 100% sure though.

Soho - Lost City

I can't afford to get a Hercules at the moment (My boyfriend has one though b:angry) and I'm a little sick of the magmites so I'm trying this pet out, thanks for taking the time to write such a great guide!

swgs

I use Eldergoth as my grinding pet also, too cheap to upgrade my Magmite's bash skills. I have not really use Eldergoth's range skill yet, but the level 4 bash and faster running speed is enough for me to keep him in my pet bag forever. I still draw aggro from Eldergoth sometime, but I believe 1 skill upgrade should be enough to resolve the issue.

bobbeh

Update:

With my new venomancer in the new server, I've made the attempt to solo krixxix, chin and suzerix at level 43. (eldergoth at level 41).

Krixxix: solo'd relatively easy at level 43.

Chin: I couldn't handle it at level 43 but I did manage to stay out of the AOE
range and manage to keep an even heal for a while. I'd imagine with a decent weapon (2** or better level 41 magic weapon), a full magic build (I had some points in vit) plus a level 43 eldergoth, he might just be about doable.

Suzerix: Couldn't stay out of the AOE range. Level 53 and he will be soloable.

Eliathel - Lost City

Eldergoth Sharpshooter has Bash lvl 5 when tamed. Shouldnt this pet be better to use at Zero coins expense?

Maliza - Heavens Tear

I loved my Eldergoth Marksman, very good lurer if you make use of his ranged ability's. I have mine at 71 or 72 i think. Egged him to make room for Herc though...

It is also a very good pet against mages and archers... no more running into other agro mobs. With a bit of pet control it's definitely a good grinding pet.

I tried soloing the first miniboss of the lvl70 expansion quest with it. Worked quite well, made the mistake to try and cast in between, didn't try again, but it can be done.

I will update this reply when i get home to give you it's stats. And for anyone who wants it... it's available for a leveling compensation b:cute
stats at lvl72:
Attack 1768
Accuracy 1398
Pdef 4951
Mded 5402
Evasion 931
HP2271

VenZehn - Sanctuary

the antelope isnt ranged, only the wild version's skill is ranged. changes when u cap it i guess.

so unless there are much higher lvl pets, id think eldergoths are the only ranged pets

Literature - Harshlands

Thats actually a good idea. I might use a eldergoth to tank empyrean...his sleep is crazy. But slitt was soloable with herc right when I got the quest...used a lot of mp pots that would have otherwise lasted me a while though. ;o

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

Antelopes are fairly useless though, seeing as ALL mage monsters melee if you get too close. A veno shouldnt even have need for a magic tanking pet.

What makes kowlin a great puller is his starting skills (He has a level 4 flesh ream, and makes a lovely support with both howl AND pierce) and runs at 10.1m/s. Faster than most mounts dood!

If you want a "cheap alternative" to typical golem pets...

When supporting party:
-DD
Varicose Scorpion
-Skill Oriented
Any pet with howl, threaten, and/or shriek is good for helping those barbs. Making sure it can live through a bosses AOEs helps too.

Sometimes looking cute/original isnt the same thing as being economic and performing well. Golems should hold aggro far better than any other pet out besides scorpion (which needs -alot- of heals) and if it doesnt you suck sorry :[

Tabasco - Dreamweaver

I tried using an Eldergoth a long time ago, and failed apparently lol I didn't like it one bit.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

An early pet that is similar to the Marksman are the odd Cactopods. One of their strengths is the ability to hold ranged mobs in place as long as any special ability is turned off. I took a Jealous Cactopod with me when I attempted to see if I could solo through the Den of Rabid Wolves at level 21 on my veno, and it could tank the Blackhand Adalwolves without much problem. If you keep the special ability it will reverse kite the ranged mobs, but they do not seem to kite melee mobs. If you have one with the Slow ability then luring with one will make soloing a bit easier as it will give you more time to re-summon a pet.


The Marksman is probably much better when that level (41) is gotten to, but until then the Cactopod can be good utility pet.


Ok, maybe not. (take backs!!!) If I'm right the stats for the level 4 Cactopod at level 72 are (sans attack and speed):

HP: 1839
Accuracy: 1839
P. Def: 5223
M. Def: 5697
Evasion: 735

Now, if the Cactopod maintains the attack increase that it shows from 4-25 as it levels to 72, then it *should* have ~1771 Attack at level 72 (2125 full loyalty). What I did was assume the increase in Attack follows a pattern, and assumed the Attack values on Ecatomb were are 500+ loyalty, and worked backwards from there.

edit: read the wrong column off the spreadsheet.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Now, if the Cactopod maintains the attack increase that it shows from 4-25 as it levels to 72, then it *should* have ~1839 Attack at level 72. What I did was assume the increase in Attack follows a pattern, and assumed the Attack values on Ecatomb were are 500+ loyalty, and worked backwards from there.

Attack growth is non-linear. I am still trying to figure out the formula behind it. Unfortunately I'm having to collect mostly my own data since most sources don't specify the loyalty for the attack values they list.

The French site does give the cactus' stats at 60.