tank bm?

The ferenczy - Sanctuary
The ferenczy - Sanctuary Posts: 275 Arc User
edited January 2009 in Blademaster
why would any one wate all there time and effort to make a "tank bm"?

and why do all of you bm insist on trying to be the tank just cuz your level is higher than the barbarian in squad? do you not realize that you are only keeping agro cuz the barb lets you and in most cases the barb actually is more than capable of tanking the mob you are tanking. don't get me wrong in sum cases it is needed. but in most it is just arogant. i am not trying to start a flame thread but i am just trying to get some insight into how your brains work.
one day the world will shout to me save us....
and i will whisper no.
Post edited by The ferenczy - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • The ferenczy - Sanctuary
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    btw i am a barb tank build turning full dedicated tank and yes there is a difference. : )
    one day the world will shout to me save us....
    and i will whisper no.
  • Oldbear - Sanctuary
    Oldbear - Sanctuary Posts: 486 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Just what seems to be the problem?

    You don't like BM's who put too much on their VIT and therefore "try to make a tank"?
    that really shouldn't be your business should it?

    You don't like that some BM's in your squad run past you, make it first to the mob and therefore "tank" it first?
    Or that some BM really actually do tank?

    well whatever the reason it's players personal play style how he/she engages enemy. don't take it out on whole class. Agreeing with your squad who does what in action before you go in, should also help, unless of course you're too busy racing each other in the dungeon
  • Bobncut - Sanctuary
    Bobncut - Sanctuary Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Yeah, what bad behavior are you responding to? And, I ask this as someone who is also building a barb tank and have not seen it on either character.

    What I have seen is a lot of situations where a group needed a second tank (which is a very different role from main tank). I've seen whole squads die because the main tank could not keep up with multiple mobs and chaos broke out or because a healer died or messed up and let the main tank die. When I'm doing a boss with a barb in the squad, of course the barb is going to be the main tank. But, if the squad knows what it is doing, I will be working as second tank (not just a damage dealer) to pick up lieutenants that could not be pulled out separately, or wandering mobs that get in the action, or to keep the boss engaged until the squad can get itself back in order if the main tank goes down. A blademaster's combination of limited aggro skill and limited self healing is certainly not enough to even challenge a barb for the main tank. But, they are really good for filling in and keeping the squad viable. And, as tanking barbs are relatively scarce and flooded with requests to help guildies with one boss after another, I can also help out by letting them not have to run to every boss who is enough levels down from what I'm currently getting that my limited tanking skills are all we need. I don't want my blademaster to be a tank and am always glad when a real tak is available and fills that main tank role. But, as the utility infielder of this game, I also try to be prepared to tank if needed. As Old Bear suggested, perhaps you just need to talk more with your squads about what each person thinks they are doing.
  • Sir_walter - Heavens Tear
    Sir_walter - Heavens Tear Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    If I'm in a group with a barb I insist on them being tank. I don't want the job I know I'm no tank. But I have been in groups where the barb insists that they cannot do it, not sure of their issues.
  • Esteban801 - Sanctuary
    Esteban801 - Sanctuary Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    When I was killing chin back then when i needed it (2 levels after I got the quest) the tank that we had died. Guess who had to tank it or the whole team was going to get killed? you guessed it, I did.

    I sure don't like tanking bosses, but seeing how barbs get called up like every 30 minutes to help on a boss it must get frustrating right? So if i know I can tank a boss why not help out and let the barb do whatever he was doing?
    But if you say that us being "tanks" is a waste of time; let's see who is really wasting time tanking bosses that you did 10 levels ago.
  • ElMieda - Heavens Tear
    ElMieda - Heavens Tear Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Bobncut - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yeah, what bad behavior are you responding to? And, I ask this as someone who is also building a barb tank and have not seen it on either character.

    What I have seen is a lot of situations where a group needed a second tank (which is a very different role from main tank). I've seen whole squads die because the main tank could not keep up with multiple mobs and chaos broke out or because a healer died or messed up and let the main tank die. When I'm doing a boss with a barb in the squad, of course the barb is going to be the main tank. But, if the squad knows what it is doing, I will be working as second tank (not just a damage dealer) to pick up lieutenants that could not be pulled out separately, or wandering mobs that get in the action, or to keep the boss engaged until the squad can get itself back in order if the main tank goes down. A blademaster's combination of limited aggro skill and limited self healing is certainly not enough to even challenge a barb for the main tank. But, they are really good for filling in and keeping the squad viable. And, as tanking barbs are relatively scarce and flooded with requests to help guildies with one boss after another, I can also help out by letting them not have to run to every boss who is enough levels down from what I'm currently getting that my limited tanking skills are all we need. I don't want my blademaster to be a tank and am always glad when a real tak is available and fills that main tank role. But, as the utility infielder of this game, I also try to be prepared to tank if needed. As Old Bear suggested, perhaps you just need to talk more with your squads about what each person thinks they are doing.

    Wow, you just made me want to play my BM again :)
  • mecurial
    mecurial Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    just wtf r u whinning, u hv the skill in ur tiger form to draw aggro
    even if he/she tank, he just taking risk of getting the hiero burnt...does ur uselessness **** u of much??
    ...P>S A tank who can't take aggro = noob
    ~~~~la la la~~~~~~
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Mohkano - Sanctuary
    Mohkano - Sanctuary Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    I think what he's getting at is that many BM's over-estimate themselves and under-estimate a proper WB tank.
    This isn't to say that BM's can't tank if they're required to, but they should understand their role in the game.
  • Sager - Sanctuary
    Sager - Sanctuary Posts: 47 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    do you not realize that you are only keeping agro cuz the barb lets you and in most cases the barb actually is more than capable of tanking the mob you are tanking.
    Why don't you just steal their aggro if you really want to tank?
    why would any one wate all there time and effort to make a "tank bm"?
    I build "tank blademaster" not to tank bosses, but to do aoe since most of the time, I found myself fight with 6 or 7 mobs at the same time. I do tank most of the fb(19-69) because there is no barbarian in the squad or because the barbarian is 10 level lower than me and do not dare to tank those bosses.
  • zkif
    zkif Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Hi fer,, sup man.

    i think its the hp charm.
    or gimp eqs :p

    that will determine who tanks who xD
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Sager - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Why don't you just steal their aggro if you really want to tank?

    'cause he can't. I know from experience of being with him. b:victory

    Sager - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I build "tank blademaster" not to tank bosses, but to do aoe since most of the time, I found myself fight with 6 or 7 mobs at the same time. I do tank most of the fb(19-69) because there is no barbarian in the squad or because the barbarian is 10 level lower than me and do not dare to tank those bosses.

    I didn't build a tank BMaster, but with Marrow Phys. (only at lv5), and full buffs, I get around 16k Phys.Def ~ with around 5.3k HP (without Barb buffs), and I can tank most bosses I've had to fight, aside from Silver Frost (and fb69 bosses) without healing.

    I don't see what's wrong here. Blademaster's can tank better than you? You're still going on with this argument, weeks later? Huh. Keep fighting the good fight, then, fer! b:bye
  • Seablue - Sanctuary
    Seablue - Sanctuary Posts: 261 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    The problem with some barb is that they refuse to go tiger to tank (god knows why, bad barb?), this gimp their ability to keep aggro. Even if they **** at the boss till the boss have only 4/5 of its hp and the rest attack, a bm like me can still take aggro around when the boss have about 2/5 of its hp left, provided that there is no real DD in the party. Why let a humanoid barb tank when we can actually keep aggro better? I would rather risk my charm than to let a humanoid barb do this. If the barb go tiger, however, that's another story.
  • ElMieda - Heavens Tear
    ElMieda - Heavens Tear Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    and why do all of you bm insist on trying to be the tank just cuz your level is higher than the barbarian in squad?

    Actually, I don't think there is a problem if the BM is a higher level than the barb, especially if their at least 10 levels higher. That means better gear, and better gear= better tanking.
  • WindGaurdian - Sanctuary
    WindGaurdian - Sanctuary Posts: 326 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    He's just a sad barb.. looking for some slash back at us BM's...because someone took his job from him.. b:cry

    b:pleasedb:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Flying to continue my journey..
  • The ferenczy - Sanctuary
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    i have had the mis fortune of working with asch and infact his behaviour is what i was talking about he draws all the heals on to him to "tank" and leaves the barb a$$ out on the heals

    i stole agro from asch with one hit same with every bm and most othe barbs i pride myself in it.

    bottom line I DON'T LOSE AGRO. I posted cuz i am tired of dealing with bm that do every thing but that do is so poorly you just wanna laugh again i send that to you asch. i wan't gonna mention you by name but you gave your self away.
    one day the world will shout to me save us....
    and i will whisper no.
  • The ferenczy - Sanctuary
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    yeah your right but i have been on bosses with those kinds of tanks "bm" and then i slip of the finger and the boss is on me i can't give back agro you know. and i am a pure tank build so when i agro i keep it the healers still focus on the bm and i die. and if it is my boss then i don't even get the credit for the kill and every one has to go through it again.

    btw my phys defence is the same as a bm that is 10 lvls higher so not much difference there

    and thanks to the other grown up responces that enlightened me as to you high vit build for aoe and the role of back up tank. the made alot of sence.
    one day the world will shout to me save us....
    and i will whisper no.
  • DeOso - Lost City
    DeOso - Lost City Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    btw my phys defence is the same as a bm that is 10 lvls higher so not much difference there

    BS. Auric shell+vanguard spirit+marrow physical+THE BETTER GEAR= better phys def than you.
  • mecurial
    mecurial Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary wrote: »

    btw my phys defence is the same as a bm that is 10 lvls higher so not much difference there
    DeOso - Lost City wrote: »
    BS. Auric shell+vanguard spirit+marrow physical+THE BETTER GEAR= better phys def than you.

    it could b true if a barb's full buffed too and in a tiger form, n ofc the lvl of alter physical marrow should b considered too.

    But for his case, due to the high lvl difference between him and other bm, there's no way he could hv better def.
    ~~~~la la la~~~~~~
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • The ferenczy - Sanctuary
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    hey your prolly right when you count in the buffs all i know is on a base lvl my tiger has teh same def as a bm i was 52 the sm was 62. again i don't know what buffs you bms have and get i am not a bm. and yeah the better gear the better phsdef no doubt but strangley enough it is the gear that make the def not the build. me and the bm were in the same armor soo.....
    one day the world will shout to me save us....
    and i will whisper no.
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i have had the mis fortune of working with asch and infact his behaviour is what i was talking about he draws all the heals on to him to "tank" and leaves the barb a$$ out on the heals

    i stole agro from asch with one hit same with every bm and most othe barbs i pride myself in it.

    bottom line I DON'T LOSE AGRO. I posted cuz i am tired of dealing with bm that do every thing but that do is so poorly you just wanna laugh again i send that to you asch. i wan't gonna mention you by name but you gave your self away.

    Right, right. My apologies, Fer. You're right, I should let the clerics both heal you against 1 mob instead of me running in and tanking 20 with my AoE. Touche, buddy. I'll take note to do so in future. b:victory
  • Bobncut - Sanctuary
    Bobncut - Sanctuary Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    hey your prolly right when you count in the buffs all i know is on a base lvl my tiger has teh same def as a bm i was 52 the sm was 62. again i don't know what buffs you bms have and get i am not a bm. and yeah the better gear the better phsdef no doubt but strangley enough it is the gear that make the def not the build. me and the bm were in the same armor soo.....

    Was the BM an axe user? The other thing that would make a difference is the amount of STR. Axe user would have roughly the same stat structure as a tank barb as the equipment minimums are the same, but any other BM would be lighter on STR - probably by about 5 points on a 10 level difference. The Auric buff would apply to either character since it is a party buff. The marrow buff might make a huge difference. That buff can offer a lot more than the tiger-form trade-up even if a barb has this maxed (which, like our marrow skill is not always recommended). Of course, trading off damage (as the barb does) instead of magic def (marrow skill) seems like a better trade for bosses since they are hard to interrupt in their spell channels.

    Asch, why do you need to be tanking to make use of your AOE? The barbs have AOE skills that can let them get aggro from the same group (I think the skills have the same ranges). AOE is generally a less effective way to keep aggro for a barb since it seems to set aggro at a given level instead of letting it stack to build like their main 1-on-1 skill does so most don't use it often. Still, it should be very easy to time this so the barb comes in with Roar (or whatever), gets aggro, and either does his own AoE or starts spamming the 1-on-1 skill on one mob after another [Note: the 10 levels here could make a big difference in the barb's AoEs if we are talking about being above and below the 59 cultivation level, but it should still work.] Meanwhile, the BM comes in with a damage AoE or two, followed by the AoE stun if mobs are still up and a significant number have switched aggro. During the stun, the barb can get aggro back with another hit of the AoE aggro skill. This would seem to dominate a scheme that really sounds like it has no tank at all, just a hope that none of the mobs on the edge of your AOE run for the squishies.
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Bobncut - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Asch, why do you need to be tanking to make use of your AOE? The barbs have AOE skills that can let them get aggro from the same group (I think the skills have the same ranges). AOE is generally a less effective way to keep aggro for a barb since it seems to set aggro at a given level instead of letting it stack to build like their main 1-on-1 skill does so most don't use it often. Still, it should be very easy to time this so the barb comes in with Roar (or whatever), gets aggro, and either does his own AoE or starts spamming the 1-on-1 skill on one mob after another [Note: the 10 levels here could make a big difference in the barb's AoEs if we are talking about being above and below the 59 cultivation level, but it should still work.] Meanwhile, the BM comes in with a damage AoE or two, followed by the AoE stun if mobs are still up and a significant number have switched aggro. During the stun, the barb can get aggro back with another hit of the AoE aggro skill. This would seem to dominate a scheme that really sounds like it has no tank at all, just a hope that none of the mobs on the edge of your AOE run for the squishies.

    Anyone that's ever done a boss, FB, TT, anything the like, with me, knows how hard the damage is that I deal, as with the damage I can tank. Due to that, we've never had to make use for a Barb. The reason I take aggro from every mob I can, is due to me being the only tank ( I can tank upto fb79 ), 'cause we like having a nice DD'ing party. I've perfected holding aggro by AoEing, and if a noob lv50 tank joins us for some reason, and wants to tank a few mobs, then tough. I'm not intending on changing my playing style because he's gonna QQ about me taking a clerics heal to tank more mobs than he can.

    If we have a Barb, that's better than me, like DarkRings, or Legendary_W, then they can go ahead and tank. I got nothing against it, but if I know I can tank, and kill, simultanrously, far better than the tank. Then, well. b:bye
  • fuzzles
    fuzzles Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    BMs simply can't hold the aggro if you're in a real party. If there are archers or mages (Or venos, if you're in TT), then the BM can forget about tanking. Don't even try. You'll just get your entire party wiped out.

    Personally, I'm a barb, and I'm plenty happy to see the BMs tank. If they want to do so, then go ahead. I'll just pop out of tiger form and make sure not to steal your precious little aggro. It takes longer, but I'm sure you have your reasons (idiocy is a reason, not an excuse).

    Having said that, BMs should know their limits. If you can't tank, don't try to tank. And don't assume that you'll be tanking either. If there's a barb of an equal level, then they're gonna be tanking. End of story.

    BMs are there to sit down, shut up, and wave their little swords around while the barbs and clerics get the job done.. BMs should only ever try to tank after making it clear to the entire party that they'll be doing so, and only if there's no roughly equal level barb around.
    Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.
  • The ferenczy - Sanctuary
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    hey look i will give credit where credit is due xasch is good at what he does. ok he is good at aoe damage. with that said this thread was to find out why you bm's insist on tanking when the barb is around. as fuzzles said you don't hold enough agro to do it for real. now if you are like as and spend your time tanking in the low lvl fb where you are asured that you will 3 hit kill all the mobs then fine. and if the barb dies durring that then it's his fault. that's a given. but on the bosses the barb needs to tank especially if it is the barbs fb. if he dies cuz you are taking all the healing from the clerics then you just screwed not just him but every one. you single handedly wasted every ones time. and useing a tank barb for a dper is just stupid. the potential for them to take your agro is too high and with the clerics focused on you he will die from the boss before you get agro back period. so that is the problem. but your right asch you are god's little gift to aoe damage and killing 20 mobs that are half your level. kinda like that fat kid that got held back 4 years in 6th grade getting lunch money.
    one day the world will shout to me save us....
    and i will whisper no.
  • The ferenczy - Sanctuary
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    and you can see my lvl 2 lvls ago i tanked fb 49/51 all the way through infact we did it with out a bm.
    and a lvl after that i tanked kisma. some thing it took you until lvl 60 something to do. again i did it with out a bm. come to think of it.
    bm a f*(king usless since a barbarian can deal enough (note i said enough) damage to kill bosses especially with a wizard there too.
    never mind i won't be here again cuz i don't care about you bm's :)
    one day the world will shout to me save us....
    and i will whisper no.
  • Oldbear - Sanctuary
    Oldbear - Sanctuary Posts: 486 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Sager - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I build "tank blademaster" not to tank bosses, but to do aoe since most of the time, I found myself fight with 6 or 7 mobs at the same time. I do tank most of the fb(19-69) because there is no barbarian in the squad or because the barbarian is 10 level lower than me and do not dare to tank those bosses.

    That's interesting. I did an experimental character a while ago to who I gave 78VIT points by the time he reached LV26. I knew it was off set I just wanted to see for myself what will happen. good part is it's really nice to see your HP meter going down slowly (HP2000 @ LV26)but bad part is since it came from expense of STR you can't really hit back good enough at that stage. I was about to pull the plug on that experiment and delete the char.
    Are you hinting there's still future for that character :) ? that later aoe and just hurtful skills will compensate lack of physical punch?
  • Oldbear - Sanctuary
    Oldbear - Sanctuary Posts: 486 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    fuzzles wrote: »
    BMs simply can't hold the aggro if you're in a real party. If there are archers or mages (Or venos, if you're in TT), then the BM can forget about tanking. Don't even try. You'll just get your entire party wiped out.

    Personally, I'm a barb, and I'm plenty happy to see the BMs tank. If they want to do so, then go ahead. I'll just pop out of tiger form and make sure not to steal your precious little aggro. It takes longer, but I'm sure you have your reasons (idiocy is a reason, not an excuse).

    Having said that, BMs should know their limits. If you can't tank, don't try to tank. And don't assume that you'll be tanking either. If there's a barb of an equal level, then they're gonna be tanking. End of story.

    BMs are there to sit down, shut up, and wave their little swords around while the barbs and clerics get the job done.. BMs should only ever try to tank after making it clear to the entire party that they'll be doing so, and only if there's no roughly equal level barb around.

    Well if that roughly equal level Barb has same god syndrome, then forget it. I don't wanna be in squad with such a player no matter wether I play BM, archer or cleric
  • fuzzles
    fuzzles Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Oldbear - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well if that roughly equal level Barb has same god syndrome, then forget it. I don't wanna be in squad with such a player no matter wether I play BM, archer or cleric

    Common sense... That's what it comes down to. Whenever the clerics tell a wizard that it can't be the healer for a difficult run, no one accuses the clerics of having a God complex. It's the wizard who's the arrogant idiot if they insist on being the main healer.

    Same thing with barbs and BMs. The barbs are the tank, if there's a barb around, it's idiotic to not have them tank. If the BM insists on tanking, they're the arrogant ones.
    Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.
  • Jessup - Heavens Tear
    Jessup - Heavens Tear Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    why would any one wate all there time and effort to make a "tank bm"?

    and why do all of you bm insist on trying to be the tank just cuz your level is higher than the barbarian in squad? do you not realize that you are only keeping agro cuz the barb lets you and in most cases the barb actually is more than capable of tanking the mob you are tanking. don't get me wrong in sum cases it is needed. but in most it is just arogant. i am not trying to start a flame thread but i am just trying to get some insight into how your brains work.

    Your Tears are the Tasty !
  • Jessup - Heavens Tear
    Jessup - Heavens Tear Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    fuzzles wrote: »
    BMs simply can't hold the aggro if you're in a real party. If there are archers or mages (Or venos, if you're in TT), then the BM can forget about tanking. Don't even try. You'll just get your entire party wiped out.

    Personally, I'm a barb, and I'm plenty happy to see the BMs tank. If they want to do so, then go ahead. I'll just pop out of tiger form and make sure not to steal your precious little aggro. It takes longer, but I'm sure you have your reasons (idiocy is a reason, not an excuse).

    Having said that, BMs should know their limits. If you can't tank, don't try to tank. And don't assume that you'll be tanking either. If there's a barb of an equal level, then they're gonna be tanking. End of story.

    BMs are there to sit down, shut up, and wave their little swords around while the barbs and clerics get the job done.. BMs should only ever try to tank after making it clear to the entire party that they'll be doing so, and only if there's no roughly equal level barb around.

    What a tard. Do us all a favor and go outside once in a while. I will tank when I want to. I did not say I would be good at it , but it's my choice.So learn to deal with it.

    BAII !

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