Don't give in to evil zhen parties!

Wwing - Heavens Tear

I wonder what will happen when 2 Zen parties are trying to grind at the same spot.

Astoru - Heavens Tear

Lecher - Sanctuary wrote: »

my question goes to the level 82 who said he/she was there...

only way i can figure why a level 82 was there is because u got an alt who was in the spot with the zhen party. otherwise why would you be in a party killing level 63 mobs

For teh lulz.

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

you know in that specific spot if you are leveling near the waters edge, north of the ship(i think there was a ship against the shore.. or a structure) you are way to far for them to successfuly pull anyways.

Fun post to read at least, 1st I thought it was another wall of text that would burn my eyes.

Renara - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How exactly does Zhen/Zen require an archer to do a glitch? Is that how it's an exploit?

As I understand it from reading these forums, the "glitch" (a euphemism for "exploit") involves an archer skill that creates a continuing area of effect(AoE) attack around its target that only stops when one of three things happens: The target dies, the archer deliberately aborts the attack, or the archer runs out of mana. There is a bug in the game that causes this AoE attack not to shut off as intended when it is used in a duel, since neither player in a duel actually dies. The attack thus remains in place indefinitely, causing continuous damage in the area in which it was cast. Pullers run around aggroing masses of monsters to bring into this area of continuing damage.

Why don't GMs ban players for using this exploit? Some posters on these forums have theorized that PWI might deliberately turn a blind eye to the practice because it sells MP charms. Due to the mana drain caused by the continuing attack, the archer cannot maintain it without relying heavily on MP charms.

One might argue that it doesn't matter whether the zhenners were using an exploit; legitimate AoEers might have behaved the same way. But could there be a direct correlation between abuse of exploits and refusal to share with others? Both might be symptoms of a self-centered mindset that values individual gain above the good of the community.

Food for thought.

andyboi

Damion - Lost City wrote: »

I think its funny that carebears on PvE servers have to flame in forums over zhen parties near sant. Try coming over to where the big bloys play on Lost City and all your high lvls belong to us. If you were on Lost City and not zhening on wolves near DSP, which still get crashed, you wouldn't zhen for more than 5 minutes before Conq, Bloodlust, or RQ would have you in the fetal position crying becasue you wasted your Miji. Dont cry over spilt milk especially when your level 6x+ with a blue name still.

Ooooo. I'm in lost city. I'm hardcore. Mommy, look! I'm hardcore!

Mosz - Heavens Tear

Renara - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As I understand it from reading these forums, the "glitch" (a euphemism for "exploit") involves an archer skill that creates a continuing area of effect(AoE) attack around its target that only stops when one of three things happens: The target dies, the archer deliberately aborts the attack, or the archer runs out of mana. There is a bug in the game that causes this AoE attack not to shut off as intended when it is used in a duel, since neither player in a duel actually dies. The attack thus remains in place indefinitely, causing continuous damage in the area in which it was cast. Pullers run around aggroing masses of monsters to bring into this area of continuing damage.

Why don't GMs ban players for using this exploit? Some posters on these forums have theorized that PWI might deliberately turn a blind eye to the practice because it sells MP charms. Due to the mana drain caused by the continuing attack, the archer cannot maintain it without relying heavily on MP charms.

One might argue that it doesn't matter whether the zhenners were using an exploit; legitimate AoEers might have behaved the same way. But could there be a direct correlation between abuse of exploits and refusal to share with others? Both might be symptoms of a self-centered mindset that values individual gain above the good of the community.

Food for thought.

ok so GM said its not an exploit
skill description is like cleric and wiz skill but doesnt work like them
refusal to share with others? doesnt apply to zhen/archer skill at all
seriously dont think developers intended it to be used to drain mana and thats what heiros were for? seeing as wizard and cleric have a skill like that already...

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Well I'd imagine that it stops draining MP after the duel is over... so, two people duel, one of them is an archer, the other guy dies, and the AoE keeps going. Then the pulling starts. Would that be an accurate description?

If that's the case, I'm rather amazed that a GM could say it's not an exploit. At the very least, it's not what the devs intended.

Mosz - Heavens Tear

it doesnt stop draining mp, did you miss the entire talk of it requiring charms?

megumil

Here is a link with the GM's official response about zhenning:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=102241&page=21

GM's have already stated that they will not ban archers for doing zhen. The skill is supposed to work like Wizard's Dragon's Breath in that it's not supposed to end until the user runs out of mana or cancels it manually. However, PW has a bug where the Archer skill ends once a target monster has died. So players have found a workaround to make it work, as intended by the developers, by dueling someone first. So please stop making zhenners sound like hackers or cheaters, it's completely misleading.

Also, who is the selfish person here? As I understand it, people who do zhen spend huge amounts of coin to be there - ~45k for an exp scroll for one hour, ~300k for an MP charm (they require several), plus thousands for repairs and HP charms as needed. Your presence there, regardless if you feel it's your right to be there, is costing those 6 players time and money by making the exp/time ration less effecient.

You have the choice - to make enemies, **** people off, make them waste resources, or you could leave peacefully if asked peacefully (I don't condone the rude language you got) and go back later when it's empty (or grind anywhere else in the world, you are the best solo class in the game).

Wwing - Heavens Tear

the archer's "glitch" is more like "bug-fixing" by players, somehow approved by developers.

tankhunter

Wwing - Heavens Tear wrote: »

the archer's "glitch" is more like "bug-fixing" by players, somehow approved by developers.

Then the developers are quite lazy.

If I was a coder, and this bug was brought before me, I would look at the information relevant to the two similar skills. That are to function on a base level identically.

If the Wizard's Dragon Breath spell focuses on the caster (Target: Self) and the Archers AOE spell does not, then I would make that quick change, save it, run a test in dev mode, if the bug is not fixed revert the change and continue finding the things that are supposed to be similar in both skills. Making relevant changes, and running quick tests to see if the bug is fixed.

Could be that the ability is missing a skill AI that the Wizards skill has, which would cause the ability to automatically cancel.

Or, even that an invisible "dummy" invulnerable target is generated by the Wizards skill that the archers one does not generate for some reason.

Once the cause is found, and fixed properly, then show it to the boss, and it will get ready to be shipped out next maintenance.

Then again, game companies are notorious for making bugs and never fixing them, too much time making new content. Its why Dawn of War since its first game up to its latest expansion still has 70+ bugs that had fixes for them found by the modding community, and presented by the modding community to the coders by the PR manager, that were no-brainers and would take 1 coder 3 hours at worst to fix all of the bugs. Using the same non-developer tools created by very skilled modders.

The bugs remain to this day.

XBaelx - Lost City

Ermosa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

and ya nice story making zhenners look bad. but u forgot to write somthing, that u was the one who started to ks when zhen party was up there.

and its not exploit, no1 getting banned for zhenning, its legal you idi*t

and no1 would mind that u grind there if u wouldnt steal mobs from pullers

oh well, u just make ur guild look bad. ksers guild

how can it be a ks when you take every damn monster there thats not ksing thats trying to get a monster to kill. Zhen parties should be banned asap they are a leveling exploit similar to botting in my eyes

Nayiro - Sanctuary

XBaelx - Lost City wrote: »

how can it be a ks when you take every damn monster there thats not ksing thats trying to get a monster to kill. Zhen parties should be banned asap they are a leveling exploit similar to botting in my eyes

except they generate the most revenue for PWE and it would be near impossible for the high 9X's and 1XX's to lvl with out them.

trep

Of course, wheres theres smoke theres fire, and where theres fire theres flamez... These things kick off due to individual circumstances, sure, but this really is an argument as old as time!

In Flyff, they have a lock on mobs that are in combat with other players. You cannot attack the mob. It is KS protection. For this the mob has to target the player, and the player has to target the mob. Its very 1v1.

Obviously that doesn't work for AoEers... But it does give reference to what is, and what is not Kill Stealing.

If I were pulling a whole area, and someone was taking one of 'my' mobs as I ran past everytime, it wouldnt phase me. Two and I might suggest another spot. But I would feel really stupid arguing over a couple of mobs taken out of 20+ when all I did to agro them was run past.....

From the other side of the coin, I wouldn't give a rats **** if I was being complained at for 1v1ing in an AoE spot (Although out of courtesy I would automatically stick to the side of the spot). Grow up ppl, We all gotta share (especially under circumstances such as the ones that kicked this off :P).

Ok so no-one likes being told to "grow up", This whole paragraph is dedicated to removing the sting from that comment.. Worked yet? no? Then you know this was directed at YOU!!

Trep~

Wyeth - Heavens Tear

Ermosa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

and ya nice story making zhenners look bad. but u forgot to write somthing, that u was the one who started to ks when zhen party was up there.

and its not exploit, no1 getting banned for zhenning, its legal you idi*t

and no1 would mind that u grind there if u wouldnt steal mobs from pullers

oh well, u just make ur guild look bad. ksers guild

LMAO Ermosa. I could barely read this, your grasp of the english language is so terrible.

You say the story makes zhenners look bad.

Your posts only make you look bad, and like an idiot.

Saitada - Sanctuary

If people want to hunt in an area and someone comes and tries to take all the mobs, well I guess their just gonna get KS'd. Nobody "owns" an area. Regardless of what you may think or want to think (barring TW). If your Zhenning and someone comes and is hunting the same area, they have as much right to be there as you do. And as much right to kill a mob as you do.

If your going to be an **** and try to take all the mobs in the area, then you can expect to loose a few to the other people hunting there. As I said above, they have as much right to be there as you do and as much right to the mobs as you have.

I went to Sanctuary last night, there are plenty of mobs in the "zhenning" area for everyone and then some. Don't be a greedy ****. Learn to share or you might find yourself having to contend with a fleet of Veno's all hunting in the area just so you can't Zhen.

Didn't stop to think about that huh? Imagine... 40 Venos all killing "your" mobs. I can kill those Seaweed Thieves at MY current lvl, in a fairly short time. Granted I have a Phoenix helping, but those thieves are weak to wood damage and my nukes hurt them pretty bad.... at lvl 52.

Learn to share because those who don't... might find their cookies getting taken away from them for not sharing...

~Saitada

Renara - Heavens Tear

megumil wrote: »

Do some research first Renara:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=102241&page=21

Thanks for taking the time to find this link, Megumil. I hope you'll pardon me for missing it, buried 21 pages into the thread. If PWE's official stance is that Zhenning is not an exploit, then it's not an exploit. (Though I suspect the game's original developers back when PW was pay-to-play might have said differently.) So much for my musings about a correllation between exploitation and refusal to share. But that has little bearing on my original post, which was a case study of self-defeating greed.

I certainly went there that night with no expectation of trouble. I originally located this grind spot using asiapworld.com's superb map tool, which allowed me to find areas with earth-type monsters that would be vulnerable to my wood spells. Arriving there, I found it to be an exceptionally good grinding spot, for the numerous reasons mentioned in my original post. On my first couple of visits, the zhen parties there appeared to take no umbrage at my modest activities. That makes sense; as Saitada pointed out, "There are plenty of mobs in the 'zhenning' area for everyone and then some." Alas, some zhenners apparently have the attitude that if they can't kill a seaweed thief, no one else should be allowed to either.

Many thanks to Aedril, Sifow, Maiya, Miugre, Wwing, Jenenji, Tankhunter, Lecher, Blancheneige, Amiris, Chloe, Davitiel, Smexxyfox, XBaelx, Trep, Wyeth, Saitada, and anyone else I left out, for praising and/or defending my post.

Astoru - Heavens Tear

tankhunter wrote: »

Then the developers are quite lazy.

If I was a coder, and this bug was brought before me, I would look at the information relevant to the two similar skills. That are to function on a base level identically.

If the Wizard's Dragon Breath spell focuses on the caster (Target: Self) and the Archers AOE spell does not, then I would make that quick change, save it, run a test in dev mode, if the bug is not fixed revert the change and continue finding the things that are supposed to be similar in both skills. Making relevant changes, and running quick tests to see if the bug is fixed.

Could be that the ability is missing a skill AI that the Wizards skill has, which would cause the ability to automatically cancel.

Or, even that an invisible "dummy" invulnerable target is generated by the Wizards skill that the archers one does not generate for some reason.

Once the cause is found, and fixed properly, then show it to the boss, and it will get ready to be shipped out next maintenance.

Then again, game companies are notorious for making bugs and never fixing them, too much time making new content. Its why Dawn of War since its first game up to its latest expansion still has 70+ bugs that had fixes for them found by the modding community, and presented by the modding community to the coders by the PR manager, that were no-brainers and would take 1 coder 3 hours at worst to fix all of the bugs. Using the same non-developer tools created by very skilled modders.

The bugs remain to this day.

Learn to read. Just ONE page back, there was a link to a post in a thread where the GM stated that the archer AoE stopping when the mob was dead is a bug in itself. It's supposed to keep going just like a wizards dragon's breath or a clerics blue bubble.

tankhunter

Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Learn to read. Just ONE page back, there was a link to a post in a thread where the GM stated that the archer AoE stopping when the mob was dead is a bug in itself. It's supposed to keep going just like a wizards dragon's breath or a clerics blue bubble.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

My post was me stating that the developers are quite lazy, then I mused a bit on how I would look to resolve the bug. In a bit of initial thinking before going off and looking at the equivalent skills to read how they work as perceived by my fellow players.

Then mused some more on how game companies are rather notorious about this, too busy making new stuff to worry about fixing existing problems that cause things to not work as intended. While I looked up the information on those skills.

Did I say anywhere that it was a not confirmed bug, or that the GMs did not report it to the developers? Which is what that link covered.

So, perhaps you should learn to read, or apply logic first before you post?

The players have a workaround, but this workaround should not have been needed, if the developers were not being lazy about fixing it in their rush to put out new things to be in the expansion.

whisperwilo

I must have read the story wrong but the way I interpreted her situation was the group tried to force her out. I may not be a high level and know everything about pw, but I am a gamer and veteran to other games and to be quite honest one person ksing from a group is a bit hard to do. I do not wish to step on what faction did what to a player, but common courteously is hell of a lot better than trying to drive someone out. I’ve seen good guilds/factions get black balled because a few bad apples got loose and started havoc on other players. Also if she was that angry with the other party than she would of expressed it more in her post, she actually got a compliment from one of the party members and felt pretty good at the end of the evening. To her it was a test, and she probably felt damn pleased knowing she was able to handle a difficult situation without going commando or forgetting her age and revert back to a whining two year old. She has a good head on her shoulders, and what she did probably be forgotten but groups that are pushy will never be forgotten. I always stand by this, most probably won’t remember the good you have done in game, but if you did something bad, everyone will know it.

eclipsewing

If you are really that strong can you help me level against lvl 60.s?
i am only 9. easy lvl up XD

on topic: very well written. no one haz right to say what to do and not D8

megumil

My biggest issue is this - I find it hard to believe that Seaweed Thieves are just so fantastic people like you MUST grind there and have nowhere better to go. If you wanted exp, wouldn't you get more from grinding air mobs? If you wanted money, wouldn't you make more soloing TT? If you wanted both, couldn't you go help people with FBs?

On the other hand, for players roughly levels 60-70, Sanctuary is simply the best spot to zhen. And as I mentioned before, they are spending considerable resources to be there. You guys might think one player grinding there is negligible, but even the loss of a few % of exp per hour is a huge loss for a zhen party. The millions spent on exp scrolls, MP charms, and repairs won't be used to their full potential. Note that Clerics, Wizards, and Archers always have a net loss in coin after zhen. Lurers make money but they have the hardest task.

Sure, people have the right to grind anywhere they want. Does that mean you must exercise that right, regardless of the circumstances or other people's needs and feelings?

I also find it funny that most of the defenders of the OP are Venos. How do you like it when players rag on you? Saying how Venos are the easiest and fastest to level, the richest class, with unfair cash shop pets, how they should be nerfed, how guilds have too many Venos and shouldn't invite anymore, etc. It's not so fun is it? Now here you guys are, criticizing something you don't get invited to or have ever done before. I just wish you could learn to understand what non-Venos have to do to make money and exp in this game.

megumil

eclipsewing wrote: »

no one haz right to say what to do and not D8

People are free to do whatever they want in this game - you can also KS, PK people 30 lvls lower than you, insult people, steal loot, bail on parties once you get what you wanted, etc. etc. Does that make it right?

No one can force you to do anything. The choice is up to the player and I don't understand why some choose to make other's lives more difficult. And a certain group of players here seem to be celebrating that.

Renara - Heavens Tear

Thank you, Megumil, for shedding light on the zhenners' position. Your posts are eloquent, well reasoned, and informative. I believe they helped me today.

This afternoon, I was grinding the seaweed thieves when zhenners began arriving to form a party. When I told one of them I would move farther out to avoid taking mobs from them, she assured me that there was no need, as my soloing activities would have an insignificant impact. I in turn assured her that I didn't mind moving, and poceeded to the safe area at the southeast corner of the seaweed thieves, as far from the zhenners as possible. This is the location Smexxyfox recommended in her post, and I thank her for the suggestion.

Sure enough, when their barbarian puller made it out that far at all, the thieves usually came running back to their positions soon afterward. Even when they didn't, there were always some left close by for me. Indeed, I soon got the impression that the puller was taking care to leave a thief or two at the very edge of the area for me, just as I was taking care to pull only the thieves farthest from the zhenners.

This impression was soon confirmed when I apologized to the barbarian for snagging a thief he was about to aggro and received the reply, "its np i dont wanna stop u from grindin." This began a friendly conversation in which we both explained that we were doing our best to avoid taking mobs from each other, and also both understanding when it happened by accident. When I mentioned my prior run-ins with zhenners, he responded, "yh some are [expletive]s," and when I said that his group was "like a breath of fresh air," he answered, "awww ty."

Before too long, I was called away from the computer...but I sure left with a good feeling. I'll continue my efforts to be a better neighbor to zhenners, and hope they'll be good neighbors to me. Thanks again to Megumil and Smexxyfox for your constructive information and suggestions.

Saitada - Sanctuary

megumil wrote: »

Now here you guys are, criticizing something you don't get invited to or have ever done before. I just wish you could learn to understand what non-Venos have to do to make money and exp in this game.

This is patently false, I have been invited to a Zen party as a puller. Foxform and Summer sprint FTW. So I know exactly whats involved. I also know that the mobs further out are difficult to keep agro on and (at least for me) sometimes took creative use of my foxy abilities to keep going where I wanted them to go. Don't make assumptions about Veno's NOT getting invited. We can and do get invited. It's more rare because we are a solo class by nature and at least for myself, prefer to work alone rather than in parties.

~Saitada

p.s. yes I died once.. I ran into a tree with 6 on my furry backside and that small delay was all it took for them to override my charm. lol.

EclipseRogue - Sanctuary

megumil wrote: »

People are free to do whatever they want in this game - you can also KS, PK people 30 lvls lower than you, insult people, steal loot, bail on parties once you get what you wanted, etc. etc. Does that make it right?

lol, yeah it does o_O
i was just lazy to go into huge details for when i do...i end up writing wayyy to much O_O;
in fact, in one another forum i had my warning level raised for writing too much o.o;;
since then i have just done short form's or whatever you wanna call it XD; o.o;;
PS: Was that meant for me? or am i mistaken? (which wouldn't be the first time lol o_o;)

Sereniama - Heavens Tear

I hate KSers much as you do...

Yet they do bring alot of entertainment XD

Holysong - Lost City

First off, as others have said, I like the composition of the post; appealing, compared to some of the other complaints written in horrendous chat-speak. (No offense to those who use it, though. It's just that this is much easier to read and understand.)

So, let's see, for those who complain about biases I am
A) Not a veno, nor do I plan to make one in the foreseeable future,
Lost City server, so I am, quote, "where the big bloys play," and not one of the supposed "PvE softies," and
C) A healer cleric, so soon enough I'll see how effective these Zhen/Zen/Zebra parties are compared to healing for ol' fashion squads.

But nevertheless.

Personally, I think that AoE's and grinders can coexist peacefully. Anyone on any server can do "anything" that they want, as long as they are prepared to accept the consequences for their actions. If Zeners decide to pay for the supplies needed to perform such a leveling activity, they needed to understand that not everything will be smooth sailing, nor is it anyone else's responsibility to ensure your satisfaction. If you go aggroing an entire mob spawn, be prepared for someone to nab one or two of them whether accidentally or purposely.

Sure, there are some people that go around and KS due to their lack of what little sense of honor remains in today's MMO world. But most people that "KS" cast a spell or attack at the same time as you do. Like, Take Aim or whatever the **** that long cast bow attack is. If you're not on the look-out, you could attack something that someone's casting that attack on. Who would be KSing then, in that situation?

However, if I read the post correctly (just read the entire thread it 10 minutes; they start to melt together) she began to KS back on purpose. I think, at least for me, that went just a wee bit too far. Perhaps I would say something different in such a situation myself, with foul language being thrown about and an archer on my tail, and it's understandable that someone under pressures would eventually snap and strike back.

As for the right and wrong thing mentioned earlier, I think that as long as it's not a bannable offense or disabled by the game itself, and someone has the moral stomach to do it, they should be able to do it. Everything you do against a player, however, has it's drawbacks; on Lost City you're likely to be on a KoS, and on the PvE servers you might have flamers spam you whenever you're on. Or something. But the point is, KSing hasn't been blocked by the game, so obviously it isn't the most urgent matter with the GM's and co. As it was brought up earlier, Flyff has such a program, so it's not like it's unusable, and if they wanted to they could lock it.

I personally think that the GM's and such leaving out blocks on KSing, not tending to the Zen glitch, and allowing AoE groups to continue is to encourage us to interact amongst ourselves (and, perhaps, money reasons with the Zen groups). They're allowing us to have arguments, to have revenge, and to run around mercilessly slaying every white name in sight so that we can act just as we would had this been real life (I mean, it IS, as far as I can tell, supposed to be as close to a "Perfect" life as possible). If they didn't, they might as well take the "MMO" out of "MMORPG." They're just acting as the police to set guidelines, and to make sure that we don't get out of hand and begin to create serious problems for the game itself.

If you've ever wanted to PK that guy that stole your girlfriend, now's the time.

Hm... my opinion has turned into quite a ramble. I apologize for taking up your time with my extended argument, and I thank whoever has taken the time to read this through.

I mean no offense to any particular person, and apologize to any that have taken any.

-Song

brokensaintvx

Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I will be one to say that I was KSing her because she was taking mobs from a zhen after they had POLITELY asked her to stop taking their pulls. I watched her attacked mobs that had ALREADY been pulled several times, and she ignored polite requests to stop her actions.

Notice how the only people that sided with her are venomancers. Sounds like someone's pissed that their character class isn't capable of zhenning unless they pull on a mount; barbs and BM's get that role most of the time anyways. Sucks to be you, start a pitty party for all I care.

Actually, as a blademaster, Im going to side with the veno on this one. Because the mobs dont all belong to the zhen party, they're just trying to find a loophole so they can afk grind while everyone else works to grind up their characters. I personally dont see the point of a Zhenning party, because ultimately, its a waste of in game money, time, and real cash.

It's like this. I can eso aoe grind killing one mob for 550 exp, split that between 4-6 people you get anywhere between 137- 96 exp respectively per kill. So, what's the point? You're killing six times the mobs that you would need to in order to get the exp from one. It's going to use too much money, and you're only going to ultimately gain 25% of the exp you would get if you just ground up. I dont see Zhenning as people expoiting the game, I see Zhenning as people being exploited by the game, because you're definately not getting your money's worth.

So, again I agree with all you people out there who disagree with Zhenners, because if you stick to your guns and level your own way, you're going to out level any zhenner.

But keep at it Zhenner's, park in a spot and go afk, waste your money and try to take my kills from me, I dare you.

XBloodKingx - Heavens Tear

Ermosa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

blancheneige, we there was 1st, why i should read what some1 writes when i was there? that veno just came to ks us. and if mobs followed pullers then they got aggro
and really, if u see blademaster pulling mobs to solo aoe them then would u also jump in the middle and kill the mobs he pulled to kill them? only cuz he didnt att them before pulled? thats just ridicilous. and there is no difference in solo aoe or zhen party, we pull monsters to aoe them and some1 jump in and get those mobs.
if u see some1 training at that spot then leave to other place and wait till they r done.
and one of venos today said that he/she is lvl 58....sorry but lvl 58 veno gets more exp from training at their lvl mobs, they just went there to ks and have fun with it
and how u would like to waste mp charm only cuz some idiot want to grind next to you?

if the BM is almost dead yes ill jump in the middle and help out
most ppl ive helped that way were grateful i saved em