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[PvP] Yes, Oppressor works
mirrorballs
Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
Finally made it to lv70, and due preparation has paid off. I've been thinking about giving up the "nuke DPS" aspect of the CW since everyone now has an essenitally "mass produced" FotM build that its so boring.
Another problem is that more and more I've been seeing "unkillable" DCs or OPs... or sometimes both in the same area. There's now actually situations where even the amount of burst DPS output cannot bring down certain classes -- when they are left free to act, free to maneuver, free to constantly outheal whatever HP is lost, constantly reapply buffs... and the current FotM, quite powerful, but doesn't have enough juice to hold opponents long enough to really apply the infamous "1-rotation" attacks. Even if fires off, what's the use when the opponent heals right back, right?
So naturally, upon that I've been trying to build active counters to find a bit of solutions, and have set my mind on experimenting with a CC-oriented build that goes all the way, and I mean ALL the way.
The abandoned stat of WIS, control bonus gears, Ms. Shadowmantle's item set, CC-related class features, you name it. All the way. The end result is now my damage is pathetic, and it takes a long time to kill anything in 1vs1... but as compensation I've become severely oppressing.
Here are some concept videos, and yes, some of you may have seen me in the previous brackets, where it was living hell for CW since every PuG between lv60~69 seemed to be just brain-dead and devoid of tactical thinking, much less mutual cooperation. It's about the most depressing time I've spent in PvP, and thus my foul-mouthed persona has flared up. Woop-dee-too. :rolleyes:
■ Video1: https://youtu.be/iWDwCKDSNIs
(Notes: This build requires balls. You don't get the luxurious and elegant style of fighting from distance. Whether be it against melees or ranged, your fighting distance is between melee range ~ approx. 20~30 feet (when kiting the likes of GWF temporarily) This is because Icy Terrain is an integral part of the rotation, as well as a mode of defense. It needs to be used aggressively -- as in, you get in there and lay down the power beneath the other guy's feet, instead of just laying it down where you are and hoping something gets snagged. Think of it as a hunter getting close and throwing a net, rather than a spider casting a web and hoping something gets in)
■ Video2: https://youtu.be/59zDLnuvLAw
(Notes: Aggressive use of Icy Veins at the beginning -- fast-casting power of Disintegrate, immediate follow up by RoF for quick-freeze. Not a good video since too many friendlies, but the point would be the aggressive nature of the tactic. Balls. Need balls)
■ Video3: https://youtu.be/9lSOAIRey-Q
(Notes: The reason why I chose MoF -- the paragon at-will of Scorching Burst -- very, very fast casting, not like the slow-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Magic Missiles. The moment I tap it, it immediately lands, making it easier to manage Spell Twisting procs. Also the Daily Furious Immolation has quite nice tactical uses, as well as being a 4-sec daze by itself)
■ Video4: https://youtu.be/EulQpJA_O5E
(Notes: What I call "speed-casting". Notice the speed of repeated CCs landing on the poor SW. He had no chance)
■ Video5: https://youtu.be/CjQCrDMyDco
(Notes: FUBARd with Ice Knife. Was trying to extend the freeze as long as possible, and then link it with the prone. Missed by less than a half-second it seems, thus the chase.)
As always, I'm not trying to "shake the house" with this build. I'm not saying this is the new meta, nor am I saying this is the best build or I can defeat the best players with this.
Merely a suggestive example on alternatives you may choose, if you want something different -- my only hope is people understand that there are choices, different paths, which sometimes may work, other times may ultimately fail, but it's that diversity and creativity what makes gaming fun IMO.
Oppressor works in PvP -- if you are willing to make sacrifices that comes along with it. It's a pity my hard drive ran out of space and thus, couldn't film the 5~6 instances where I've met decently geared DC and an OP separately, and basically made it puke by disrupting heal actions and buffing with speed-cast CCs. I'll see if I can film better examples.
Another problem is that more and more I've been seeing "unkillable" DCs or OPs... or sometimes both in the same area. There's now actually situations where even the amount of burst DPS output cannot bring down certain classes -- when they are left free to act, free to maneuver, free to constantly outheal whatever HP is lost, constantly reapply buffs... and the current FotM, quite powerful, but doesn't have enough juice to hold opponents long enough to really apply the infamous "1-rotation" attacks. Even if fires off, what's the use when the opponent heals right back, right?
So naturally, upon that I've been trying to build active counters to find a bit of solutions, and have set my mind on experimenting with a CC-oriented build that goes all the way, and I mean ALL the way.
The abandoned stat of WIS, control bonus gears, Ms. Shadowmantle's item set, CC-related class features, you name it. All the way. The end result is now my damage is pathetic, and it takes a long time to kill anything in 1vs1... but as compensation I've become severely oppressing.
Here are some concept videos, and yes, some of you may have seen me in the previous brackets, where it was living hell for CW since every PuG between lv60~69 seemed to be just brain-dead and devoid of tactical thinking, much less mutual cooperation. It's about the most depressing time I've spent in PvP, and thus my foul-mouthed persona has flared up. Woop-dee-too. :rolleyes:
■ Video1: https://youtu.be/iWDwCKDSNIs
(Notes: This build requires balls. You don't get the luxurious and elegant style of fighting from distance. Whether be it against melees or ranged, your fighting distance is between melee range ~ approx. 20~30 feet (when kiting the likes of GWF temporarily) This is because Icy Terrain is an integral part of the rotation, as well as a mode of defense. It needs to be used aggressively -- as in, you get in there and lay down the power beneath the other guy's feet, instead of just laying it down where you are and hoping something gets snagged. Think of it as a hunter getting close and throwing a net, rather than a spider casting a web and hoping something gets in)
■ Video2: https://youtu.be/59zDLnuvLAw
(Notes: Aggressive use of Icy Veins at the beginning -- fast-casting power of Disintegrate, immediate follow up by RoF for quick-freeze. Not a good video since too many friendlies, but the point would be the aggressive nature of the tactic. Balls. Need balls)
■ Video3: https://youtu.be/9lSOAIRey-Q
(Notes: The reason why I chose MoF -- the paragon at-will of Scorching Burst -- very, very fast casting, not like the slow-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Magic Missiles. The moment I tap it, it immediately lands, making it easier to manage Spell Twisting procs. Also the Daily Furious Immolation has quite nice tactical uses, as well as being a 4-sec daze by itself)
■ Video4: https://youtu.be/EulQpJA_O5E
(Notes: What I call "speed-casting". Notice the speed of repeated CCs landing on the poor SW. He had no chance)
■ Video5: https://youtu.be/CjQCrDMyDco
(Notes: FUBARd with Ice Knife. Was trying to extend the freeze as long as possible, and then link it with the prone. Missed by less than a half-second it seems, thus the chase.)
As always, I'm not trying to "shake the house" with this build. I'm not saying this is the new meta, nor am I saying this is the best build or I can defeat the best players with this.
Merely a suggestive example on alternatives you may choose, if you want something different -- my only hope is people understand that there are choices, different paths, which sometimes may work, other times may ultimately fail, but it's that diversity and creativity what makes gaming fun IMO.
Oppressor works in PvP -- if you are willing to make sacrifices that comes along with it. It's a pity my hard drive ran out of space and thus, couldn't film the 5~6 instances where I've met decently geared DC and an OP separately, and basically made it puke by disrupting heal actions and buffing with speed-cast CCs. I'll see if I can film better examples.
Post edited by mirrorballs on
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Not terribly well, I'm afraid. TRs in mod6 received a moderate nerf to stealth duration which actually had some impact towards reducing its survivability for Execs and Scoundrels, but of course, again Sabos weren't effected much by this. Add to that additional crappage coming from broken stuff like the LoL set bonuses and basically there's not much any class can do against Sabos.
Pure destruction is one of CW's many talents, no doubt. But with this method the intention was to "return to its roots" -- as in Control Wizard. I've seen many CW players in the forums complain about how their Control Wizard couldn't control as well as TRs or HRs. But now I'm pretty certain that if you really build for it, then the sentiment shared by CW players simply isn't true. I would know -- since I was the guy that invented the 'permadaze' routine for mod5 TRs.
So basically, if we have multiple different types of characters in your team, most of them can do DPS. But how many of then can really CC? I'd like to compare the situation to a DC. Even DCs can do some hefty amount of DPS and it was a short fad in the opening days of mod5. But then, soon, people realized that any class can do DPS, and the real value of the DC is in how they can become a heal-tank.
Same with CW IMO. I'm not saying the preference of the players to go DPS/nuke is wrong or anything, but I believe mod6 is becoming more and more evident that sometimes, just DPS doesn't cut it. DCs... OPs... even CWs themselves. You could beat the DC down to within an inch of its life and given the opportunity it will simply bounce back by way of insta-heals. OPs will simply deny you from making even a single dent on his life bar, and tabshield-negation CWs are tough enough to kill anything (except the DCs and OPs ofcourse...) before it gets killed.
Hence, I tried looking at the alternatives. CC the DCs before they even get a chance to heal. CC the OPs frequently enough to make cracks in their defense and widen it, and CC the tabshield-negation CWs and don't give it any opportunity to hit your team with any of his mighty spells. Of course, if it's just a one-time CC, then its meaningless. If you want CCs on mod6's toughest opponents to have any kind of meaning at all, then it has to be maintained for certain duration, and it has to be frequent enough.
In terms of pure CC efficiency it's just no contest.
If you use it aggressively, yes.
Awesome too see someone thinking outside the box and taking the CW back to what it was intended for. watched one vid, cant wait too watch the rest.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
I guess you're using EF on tab for the slightly longer duration? What do you think about tabbed Icy Terrain? Making it distanced, you could fight more from distance and maybe get hit less even more. Just a thought.
If I'm seeing this correctly, you're using some level of Bilethorn as weapon enchantment? Do you care to elaborate why? Because Bile's DoTs, afaik, build Avalanche stacks like crazy.
That is not true.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Alacrity
Icy terrain is the only chill based encounter an oppressor needs.
I got my first hate PM from a DC!!
No reason not to, except I find the tab-power reticle-aim-fire function a bit cumbersome and slows down my reaction times. Mostly a preference thing.
Because I don't have the money to get anything else yet
This is not at all relatable to my experience in lvl 69 pvp. I felt like my damage was stupid high, mostly because of giant SS procs. It's cool that you're trying something new, but unfortunately a few OP class features means you're crippling yourself doing so.
Yes, that's how SS CWs usually operate in that level :rolleyes:
So, usually, when our lovable PuG nubs take 6~7 people to one side of GG having fun steamrolling through 3~4 defenders on that side, I usually end up with 2~3 friendlies trying to stop 6~7 opponents from steamrolling this side. If those 2~3 friendlies are trustworthy, then it actually does happen, as we survive and hold off the opponents long enough until our nubtrain steamrolls all the rest of GG nodes and actually circle around to arrive at the point we're defending. When that happens, we win. Of course, that comes from the personal expense of me usually having 0 kills, 0 points for node capture, a lot of deaths and assists.
In lv70 PvP, there are more veterans, seasoned players who have a wide view on how things are going. When they see that they don't need that many numbers in one side, those veterans usually move over to my side to be at the place where numbers are most needed. Hence it's a lot more pleasant environment for people like me who prefer to not follow huge nub trains around. But under lv70...
Ay caramba. It's a disaster.
I'm pretty much satisfied that by crippling myself, I allow my team to bit*hslap OPs and DCs around and help either close the fight quickly on one node, or turn the tide of a losing fight. I've seen the mightiest of SS CWs just playing that "back and forth on the HP bar" game with DCs and OPs, that seems to go on forever. Keep hitting the immovable object with the unstoppable force.
After giving up the temptations to become the "unstoppable force", now I'm an "ignorable force"
After I've really dug into this Full-Oppressor, I shi* u not, many of the fights that involves enemies DCs or OPs, which would have ended in a stalemate, actually ends rather quickly. Still need more time to play more matches, but at this point I'm pretty confident that when you meet tough enemies -- GFs, OPals, DCs, or an enemy group that might have ALL of them in it, a friendly team that has one of my types is going to finish/win the fight faster than a friendly team that has one of the standard SS CWs in it.
So I wouldn't say I'm crippling myself. Rather, I'm specialized for certain jobs which the standard SS-CW types cannot do, or suck at. Again, I'm not saying this build is superior. Probably in many cases the SS-CWs would handle things better than my types. But when there's a certain type of a situation that needs certain countering methods, I'm it.
As a matter of fact, actually, it's most fun when you pal up with a SS-CW for an OPP-SS tag-team. I oppress people, my pal fries him. Quite efficient really. Very fun, too!
■ https://youtu.be/vPEeOvnhaTo
A nice 2 vs 1 situation vs. a decently geared GWF. Was able to disrupt the GWF long enough between his Unstoppable downtime to luckily save the HR and turn the tables.
■ https://youtu.be/8Cfcbx76-oY
A scenario where I tried best as I could to my current level/spec, to delay the opponents at their node. I was counting on friendlies taking the hint and coming to overwhelm them... but unfortunately, never happened. Notice how in the first 2v2 situation the CCs are stacking up in frequency as to steadily take the HP down on one of the OPs. One or two friendlies came, but in the end more enemies showed up. Was a nice try, though.
■ https://youtu.be/6gxfwKyptqA
Probably the best-presentation of what a FULL-CC Oppressor build can do. The fights starts off with me joining a small number of friendlies fighting two enemy paladins in cooperation. Normally, this is a "impossible" scenario, even with more friendlies multiple OPals, even against superior numbers, can stay alive for so long time that usually it the fight degrades into a bad situation.
After around 30 seconds finally decided on a target to focus... and from that point, watch the OPal in a state of total lock-down.
Of course, I don't take credit for all of it. Some of the friendlies there were smart. They added additional CCs to the situation, until finally his defense falters. They also "got the hint", seeing my target locked down, most of the friendlies moved in to focus on the other one.
I'm confident that probably around 80% of the more times the target OPal was in that state, it was my CCs doing the job. Fast-casting rotation of CCs is probably currently the most effective "legit" way of fighting these strong classes head-on.
Topping the chart has no meaning unless your team wins, since having 0 kills and less than 100 points can still earn more glory than having 4,000 points and 20 kills with 0 deaths.
I can simply join the "nubtrain" -- the area of operations where the majority of clueless players flock to, and then stand in the rear ground and fire off Disintegrate against almost dead enemies -- this gets me plenty of kills. I could always be there on every node that we've cleared and stand there doing nothing until it is full captured, and that will earn me 300pts. every time. I can avoid every bad situation I foresee and only travel to the juiciest and easiest areas of the match. Stick to this discipline and earning points is no problem, except it also means manpower and talent is wasted on needless delays and bad tactical thinking, which will get the team lost.
Points don't really mean anything, nor is it even the slightest factor at all in PvP. People should know that. In most of the matches I win, I never earn more than 1,000 points because at the moment the node is cleared, I don't stick around. I immediately move to another contested point to fight. There goes those +300 capture points. Every bad situation I foresee, I'm one of the first guys to arrive and try to hold it off, which gets me a lot of deaths and small number of kills. There goes my +25 kill points.
But does my team win? Yep. I can very confidently claim, at this point, a full-CC Oppressor build contributes every bit as much as any SS-CW, and in many cases, even more. In the last combat video, I can earnestly say that if there was a SS-CW instead of me, the fight would have lasted at least three times longer.
Currently at around 3.2k IL, except the defenses aren't finished yet since I only have lesser Negation. Against SS-CWs of similar gear range, its actually a surprisingly equal fight, which in many cases I gain the upperhand and win. Usually the SS-CWs have such a short, puny length of CCs, and well as on average longer cool times for major CC powers, that as soon as I get a chance to land my own EF, the tables turn around almost instantly and its very difficult for the SS-CW to break free to grab a chance to really deal damage.
Yep. I never intended for damage. Like said, any DPS can do damage. But only I can CC and disrupt the key opponents long enough for every attack from our DPS guys to land square. I don't give the target a chance to heal, chance to teleport or dodge, or to retaliate. I turn them into combat dummies. Someone else can beat on them. A SS-CW can't do this.
A SS-CW may be able to deal much higher DPS and kill the guy faster, but in a team fight that also holds some dangers that if the target refuses to go down, and constantly retaliates and self-heals, the tide of the battle might be turned. How many times have PvPers experienced a situation where he thinks he's almost got that DC or OPal down, only to have him break free on the last minute, heal himself to full, and then the fight goes on longer, more enemies arrive to help, and your team gets wiped? Bloody many, I presume.
In a sense, the Full-CC Oppressor gives up that damage, and in turn, gains the power to stop situations like above from happening.
(ps) And if all else fails, if there's the smug, cocky OPal/DC as he stands alone in the middle of the node, thinking he can easily survive 3~4 of us... locking him down and just killing him on the spot, without giving him a chance to do all that healing, buffing, throwing down Arsetroll Shield... it just makes them look stupid. He's so cocky in the beginning, and then he's like "Wha... WTF??!!".. and then everyone beats the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of him. That's just priceless.
IMO its quite satisfactory and viable so far. Take particular note in just how powerful Icy Terrain is when it comes to multi vs. multi engagements, as well as the chain-CC cycling. Even when you yourself is CCd/surrounded IT disrupts enemies often enough to buy you time to survive and attempt an escape.
Overall, combat testings have been going great so far. One interesting bit is when you meet a similarly geared CW in a 1vs1 situation. Empirically, I'd actually say the full-Oppressor has quite an upperhand. Of course it basically comes down to who lands the EF first at the most critical timing and a lot of anticipatory teleportation is involved, but the weakness of the CW has always been CCs, and basically, for the Spellstorm CW it comes down to a very similar situation as meeting a trapper HR.
Of course, it's not a picture-perfect perma-CC like the trapper can do, as there's a systematic escape route that comes with the cycling of CCs. This makes the overall "control" of the fight very much in the OPP-CW's hands, but not totally helpless for the DPS SS-CW. So, in a nutshell the fight basically comes down to the OPP-CW controlling the SS-CW 80% of the time or more, and if the SS-CW can evade the OPP-CW's crucical EF attempts successfully then it has a chance to turn the tables in that 20% of the time and end the fight quickly with a huge one-two-straight combo.
In terms of overall efficiency, I'd say the bigger the fight the higher the OPP-CW's efficiency, the smaller the fight the higher the SS-CW's. If the two fighting forces are evenly matched, I can definitely say that I can put the enemy DC out of commission for the entirety of the fight, denying it's power to help anyone into the field by turning it into a force-choked popsicle for 80~90% of the time.
........
That being said, the best part of the current combat tests are that I haven't reached my full CC potential yet. Among the 4 artifact slots I only have one that I really want. I still couldn't get my hands on the artifacts that increase your control bonus.. which means that there's still about 5~10% additional control bonus queued up for me in the future.
So here are the vids, enjoy!
(ps) Oh, btw, when I was taking those videos, I didn't realize I was using a farming setup and was fighting without Orb of Imposition and Arcane Presence, the two central class features of the build... so I'm fighting with 20% missing CC bonus and 15% lesser recharge. Man, I thought my CCs were ending shortly, as well as the rotation slower. No wonder.
■ https://youtu.be/nUQk49SNaq4
■ https://youtu.be/ulkhPtc5hDA
■ https://youtu.be/gaMcOmIfceE
■ https://youtu.be/qBbFt0e3Rak
■ https://youtu.be/mSHGLVInuyE
■ https://youtu.be/yWiXyUMkIH4
■ https://youtu.be/rvDP0GkVk-Y
■ https://youtu.be/QJzh_dH-vQM
■ https://youtu.be/TF12Q-PkfP4
■ https://youtu.be/nognm2AAST8
■ https://youtu.be/pGQGLhvh55c
Disrupting enemies continuously to survive under tough situations
...
■ https://youtu.be/bHxSAQ4vbOs
...and yes, this one is in honorable memory of all the brave CWs that fell before the hands of those pesky, sinister, bow-stringing, sword-slashing, trapper HRs and their permstunning. The situation is right after I landed an EF. I know everyone watching is shouting; "Karma is a female-canine-being, isn't it!?" with me. LOL
One on one or two on two, I'd say HRs and GFs are the biggest problems, with OPs and TRs close behind. As I've mentionned in some other thread, I tend to forgo Shield entirely, it's simply not worth losing an encounter over this, and certainly not the spell mastery slot.
Achieve survivability through control and dodges.
Outside the capstone, feats like Severe Reaction, Icy Veins and Alacrity are a must have. Alacrity allows you to chain up EF and IT really really fast, Severe Reaction gives you some extra dodges before going down, Icy Veins means that you freeze people almost instantly at close range. I'm also a fan of the feat that boosts Ray of Frost & Orb of Imposition.
It seems many people might be considering the "CONTROL" part of the CW class (which is supposed to be conceptually the primary function) as an alternative in the near future, which may come closer than I initially thought. There is now an announcement considering the nerfs to the Stormspell class feature, which many adept players have pointed out as problematic in that its efficiency is much too high considering its nature that it procs on just about anything, can crit, and also multi-proc without a streakbreaker.
It's actually not uncommon to see the devs making design choices that removes crit from proc mechanics, which is completely reasonable. Procs are chance-based that may add effects or damage as a nifty "bonus" to the initiation power. When something procs so frequently, and so powerfully, as to become an entire center of a build by itself, becoming the no.1 source of damage... then that's a clear indication of how broken it is right there. This is the same reasoning behind people attacking the Shadowy Opportunity mechanics of the Sabo TR and rightfully so.
This reliance on the broken aspects of the class feature has essentially twisted the "Spellstorm Wizard" into a "Stormspell Wizard" for much too long. By my predictions this will have a big impact on the "standard" CW builds in the near future, especially since the "proc multiple stormspells crits in quick succession to deal massive, decisive damage within seconds" will be denied.
In a weird, ironical way, I think this might actually be better for the CWs in PvP overall. Perhaps this "lull of the DPS" may finally be coming off to many. One can only hope.