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GWF as Tank after Modul 6: make up your mind
aethanas
Member Posts: 232 Arc User
Greetings!
After trying a Sentinel build before and after Modul 6 and looking at how quickly Great Weapon Fighters could be killed generally, someone should finally make up their mind about the role of a Great Weapon Fighter, more specifically if they are supposed to become a real Tank or just a Damage Dealer with more utility or damage or survivability.
Nowadays the big hits from enemies are able to kill a GWF in no time even if they try excessively to boost their defensive stats; they have no means to counter big hits besides running away and this tactic contradicts everything else a GWF has to do in order to get threat.
All feats related to tanking are vested with threat generation which makes sense for a class more oriented to be a proactive class than other (reactive) classes able to tank. The contradiction I see now is that a GWF has to run like a squirrel to evade big hits potentially able to kill it.
Now, the GWF has to build threat by means of damage amplified by their feats which give better threat generation, and at the same time it has to move around a lot, if it tries to tank enemies, and is unable to consistently deal out damage in order to build threat. That is not the case in ideal situations where a GWF is able to stand still and do its damage.
So overall, a GWF can help to tank in a party but is no real benefit if left alone to tank enemy groups, or at least the latter situation gets very frustrating as it is partly possible with enough control powers but even then it gets problematic if some bigger enemies are control immune; and a GWF is always in danger to lose threat to a Control Wizard who tries to control the enemies after the GWF got the attention first so that the CW were able to start their rotation.
I got the idea as an interim solution that Reaping Strike could be enhanced further in two ways: first that it generates always the full threat value regardless of how much it is charged helping a GWF to move around; second that it prevents the GWF from losing HP over a fixed percent value to hamper one-shots. This power has pros and cons and could benefit a Sentinel build more this way without getting too useful for other builds.
Any sense in that?
After trying a Sentinel build before and after Modul 6 and looking at how quickly Great Weapon Fighters could be killed generally, someone should finally make up their mind about the role of a Great Weapon Fighter, more specifically if they are supposed to become a real Tank or just a Damage Dealer with more utility or damage or survivability.
Nowadays the big hits from enemies are able to kill a GWF in no time even if they try excessively to boost their defensive stats; they have no means to counter big hits besides running away and this tactic contradicts everything else a GWF has to do in order to get threat.
All feats related to tanking are vested with threat generation which makes sense for a class more oriented to be a proactive class than other (reactive) classes able to tank. The contradiction I see now is that a GWF has to run like a squirrel to evade big hits potentially able to kill it.
Now, the GWF has to build threat by means of damage amplified by their feats which give better threat generation, and at the same time it has to move around a lot, if it tries to tank enemies, and is unable to consistently deal out damage in order to build threat. That is not the case in ideal situations where a GWF is able to stand still and do its damage.
So overall, a GWF can help to tank in a party but is no real benefit if left alone to tank enemy groups, or at least the latter situation gets very frustrating as it is partly possible with enough control powers but even then it gets problematic if some bigger enemies are control immune; and a GWF is always in danger to lose threat to a Control Wizard who tries to control the enemies after the GWF got the attention first so that the CW were able to start their rotation.
I got the idea as an interim solution that Reaping Strike could be enhanced further in two ways: first that it generates always the full threat value regardless of how much it is charged helping a GWF to move around; second that it prevents the GWF from losing HP over a fixed percent value to hamper one-shots. This power has pros and cons and could benefit a Sentinel build more this way without getting too useful for other builds.
Any sense in that?
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If the map is laggy, and even encounters aren't going off when instructed, of course the shift key is rather ineffective (Heralds, and now IWD HEs). I'll just stand there and take it, trying to dish out as much damage as I can before I die. But, a fresh start at a campfire, eat a dead kit, and once more into the breach, dear friends. Once more!
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
Then look into the three feat trees; if you were right, the feat tree at the bottom would be a contradiction or inconsistency to the role of the Great Weapon Fighter but we still have this feat tree after Modul 6.
Short version: Sentinel GWF deals up to 3 times less damage and tanks worse than Destroyer GWF. Imho, Devs have ruined the Sentinel GWF tree beyond repair and thus, it should be deleted altogether.
I tried my Sentinel build in Kessell's Retreat a few times and it is horrible there; it is not that my runs were never successful but my Great Weapon Fighter desperately needs a Devoted Cleric, and even better together with a Control Wizard, to handle the enemies and still my toon dies easily, more so with some lags due to one-shots. (30% damage reduction and 34% deflection chance and 80.600 HP at ~2.200 item level)
The problem with such Skirmishes is that the queue does not search for a Healer and Tank specifically and if my GWF is left alone to tank, it gets serious trouble to survive. At Kessell himself I have to be cautious and so I had times where I survived the two Beholders and died later and saw that the remaining peeps were able to slowly kill Kessell; my GWF was helpful during the time with the Beholders but that was it.
At mod6, I saw all dps classes can do very nice dmg output. GWF destroyer too but can't tank a t2 dungeon..
Sentinel-GWF is 3th tank hero in game by meaning "aggro holding". GF, Prot-OP and GWF-Sentinel. After doing many dungeons I saw GF's and OP's can die 1 shot from many attacks too. My GWF is Destroyer spec/build atm but I tested sentinel build with my another alt, feat properties are very nice for that job :
Sentinel Survivability Feats :
1. Sentinel's Aegis : %20 def stat effectiveness, Unstoppable = %40-80 damage resistance, (Restoring Strike %50 heal over 3 sec)
2. Master at Arms : Weapon Master passive : (Rank 4 = 6 stacks) %2 deflect chance per WM stack. 6 stack = %12 deflect + 5 AC when used + Threat Regen %50
3. Defiance : Slam and Spinning strike : %25 defence + %25 threat. (Spinning strike already has a deflect property and slam is best daily for tanking)
4. Countless Scar : When you struck you get %1 dmg resistance, it stack for 15 times and lasts 6 sec. = %15 damage resistance
5. Living Wall : Allies get %5 less dmg (%10 if behind you)
6. Scale Agility : %5 deflect.
Heroic Feats :
7. Toughness : %9 HP
8. Armor Specialization : Effectiveness of Armor Class and Defence %15
9. Constitution Focus : Effectiveness of Constitution %15
With a Augment companion and loyal defender items, its possible to get 3-4-5k+ defensive stats easily and 13-14k defence by not spending tons of AD. And defender loyal ones are cheap comparing other ones. As theologically sentinel GWF can be a nice tank of course depending build, gear, upgrades & enchants and playstyle, choosen powers/rotation. It's not possible now stand front of everything and facetank it easly like before. Need to play smart, move from red areas, manage dailies and cooldowns, keep eye on group all time and be sure that you have all aggro from mobs etc. A tank's main job is holding aggro, save other group members from enemies, and try not to die. DPS is not main issue but when you think have enough survivability that you cant die 1 shot from any attack, possible to increase dmg output from gear or feats.
Bravery Passive (Rank 4) = %16 deflect + %2 if used off hand class artifact power.
Seems slam or spinning strike and unstoppable is key here which makes us keep alive. Slam is very good with def bonus and interrupt and also possible to keep moving and using encounters while slam is on. With high recovery and DC artifact and some ActionPoint gain (recovery + sprite companions + artifacts) you can increase numbers of slams you use in combat and which makes you more stronger. Encounters : Daring Shout, Come and Get it, IBS, Restoring Strike, Roar, Frontline Surge. For aoe aggro holding, daring shout, come and get it, ibs seems nice. At single target you can change or to better dmg hidden daggers etc. Many choices possible to select encounters according combat or playstyle, but I think GWF-Sentinel can be a good tank. I could able to do more tests if we had duo-multi spec. We get lots of deflect, damage resistance and good survivability properties from feats. With all stacks of feats/passives + slam + unstoppable its not easy to die.
If you really mean in mod 5 the GWF was weak comparing to other classes, you played a destroyer or you just got no clue about playing a gwf.
And ofc: GWF Sentinel build is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Why still discuss?
Sorry, but I cannot agree with you on this.
Some praised feats add next to nothing to survivability like 15% more effectiveness of Constitution or 20% more effectiveness on Defence and even Master at Arms is only mildly useful for a tank as its deflection part would end when it is mostly needed and 5 more armour class makes no difference.
They sound nice but the results are not worth to mention even added together and that is the problem.
Every Sentinel build stays prone to one-shots due to the sheer amount of stat points one has to invest to further damage resistance by a remarkable value.
You falsified yourself in that you said even Oathbound Paladins and Guardian Fighters have chances of being one shot and a Great Weapon Fighter has no means to reach the same defensive levels like these two as these two have another layer of damage resistance thanks to their abilities, but not the GWF. (Or are you saying a GWF is able to get much more defensive stats that would even out the difference?)
A GWF is unsuited to replace a GF or OP in terms of tanking.
If evading were the only counter a GWF should have, then it would only be able to tank under ideal conditions and only as long as nothing goes slightly wrong (this is the state of a Sentinel as of now); I already said even normal enemy groups in Kessell's Retreat can instantly kill a GWF and you are not able to pick out single enemies out of a group.
(Or are you thinking that a tank has to grab attention and to die because it should not be able to withstand the incoming damage?)
In another thread mentioned here the problems are also addressed and what the problems are in general.
All classes are good in true hands and it depends build and how much ad spend on and how you play ofc. At mod5 gwf dps output was less then TR and SW. I use act and inspected hundreds of pve combats, specially in tiamat. PvP is another world and different mechanics and even at PvP I remember lots of gwf complaining about 1 shot die from TR's. But mod3-4 gwf was very good and overpowered. Then big nerfs to deepgash and unstoppable made gwf weaker. I mean solid pve dmg output as dps role at mod5. And as tank, GWF sentinel was able to solo many dungeon bosses at mod5. I killed SP boss solo when whole group died. My 23k GWF was doing 20-25m total dmg hardly at mod5 in tiamat, but a SW and TR or HR/CW able to do 30-40m easly or with 12-13k TR-SW was doing more then 20m. At single target gwf couldnt challange with TR and SW at mod5. I played all classes at mod5 and I guess have a clue about it. GWF was doing well at VT/MC/CN where more aoe but that was real : TR and SW was doing more dmg then GWF with same gear lvl at mod5. Now, at mod6, gwf is better and has good point.
I dont say GWF is best tank. Paladin is best tank now. I saw 4k GF's die 1 shot at eToS last boss but I finished whole dungeon with my 2.5k pally alt with no healer.
GWF is one of "aggro holding" class with paladin and GF. "aggro holding" means "can tank". I guess game designers didnt make this sentinel feat/build for just to have a 3th feat. As theorically GWF can be "tank" if you spend some of AD on it build good. I guess a 150k HP and a 15k def sentinel GWF can tank anywhere. Ofc can die 1 shot if doesnt play carefully. Some abilities hit like 400-500-600k. You must move most of time. Unstoppable = doubles hp, give %40-80 resist, slam gives %25 resist + interrupt, gets AC from passive weapon master's, bravery %18 deflect only itself. So why not? Tanks main job is "to hold aggro and try not to die" by playing smart, using dailies and cooldowns carefully. AP gain - recovery is more important then offensive stats if you think to stay alive more then doing more damage. No one can stand in front of everything and facetank all now it was like before. At mod6 players need to show more skills. Even tanks. If we had duo or multi spec in game, I could record a video and prove it but I aggre it cant be a "best" tank but I give a chance to it. Feats can be better with increased survivability since aggro holding is not problem. At mod5, aggro holding was problem too.