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Crit hits are 20% effective (often worse than noncrit)
zeusom
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 810 Arc User
We tested some stuff on live today after the patch.
Tenacity from a full elemental pvp set gives a player:
40% PvP Damage Resist (Base for PvP - cannot be eliminated. Working)
80% Armor Penetration resistance (was broken since mod6 launch - is now working)
40% Control resistance (did not test)
40% Critical hit resistance (Crit hits are 20% effective and usually less damage than noncritical hits unless using a vorpal - then crit hits might break even or do slightly better)
ARMOR PEN / ARMOR PEN RESISTANCE and PVP BASE DR
Armor penetration and Armor penetration resistance is now working in an additive way as explained by gentlemancrush in the recent ArP thread. Once you stack your %resistance ignored above 80%, any %RI after that begins cutting into a players Defensive damage resist linearly/additively as described - its working. Because of the the unchangeable base 40% PvP DR, noncritical/regular strikes against another player have a maximum efficacy of 60% (100% - 40% base DR). Any extra defensive DR a player has is subtracted from 60%. If a player has 20% defensive DR, and you don't have more than 80% resist ignore, your hits will be 60%-20%=40% effective. If you have 100% resist ignore then you will overcome their 80% ArP resist AND 20% defensive DR, so your noncrit hits will be 60% effective. That is the gist. It can pay off well to your damage to stack ArP to get beyond 80% resist ignored.
Noncritical hits against another full tenacity player can be up to 60% effective. There are exceptions for certain feats and boons but otherwise the ArP/ArPResist/PvPDR/DefensiveDR system works.
CRIT STRIKE RESISTANCE
Critical hits are a different story. Critical hits seem to be 20% effective and often do less damage than noncritical hits, even sometimes with a vorpal/150% crit severity. Ever heard of a game where critical strikes are weaker than normal hits? Only Neverwinter. Armor penetration stacked beyond 80%RI to reduce a target's defense DR does not seem to apply to your critical strikes - they are still 20% effective regardless, so if you stack ArP to say, 90-110% RI, the damage benefit seems to be completely wasted with crit hits.
Why are critical hits 20% effective? Seems crit hit resistance 40% and pvp base damage resist 40% are added together to give 40+40 = 80% resistance to crit hits. Along with crit severity suppression, the result is that without a vorpal, noncritical hits very often hit harder than your critical hit against other players . And if you have stacked ArP high enough this is almost always true if your RI% is not applied to crit - noncrit will hit harder.
Unless you use a vorp and have mechanics that rely on crit procs, might as well throw it away for Power/ArP. Without a vorp, Crit is literally dragging down your damage in pvp oO With a vorp and without ArP stacked, crit averages out to a slight overall improvement in damage, but not much. Just do a match and run ACT, you will see.
TY norm and yorg for testing help.
Can anyone offer additional information/correction on crit?
Crit strike resistance 40%, PvP Base DR 40%, PvP Crit suppression - how does it all interact?
Crit worse than noncrit, working as intended?
Tenacity from a full elemental pvp set gives a player:
40% PvP Damage Resist (Base for PvP - cannot be eliminated. Working)
80% Armor Penetration resistance (was broken since mod6 launch - is now working)
40% Control resistance (did not test)
40% Critical hit resistance (Crit hits are 20% effective and usually less damage than noncritical hits unless using a vorpal - then crit hits might break even or do slightly better)
ARMOR PEN / ARMOR PEN RESISTANCE and PVP BASE DR
Armor penetration and Armor penetration resistance is now working in an additive way as explained by gentlemancrush in the recent ArP thread. Once you stack your %resistance ignored above 80%, any %RI after that begins cutting into a players Defensive damage resist linearly/additively as described - its working. Because of the the unchangeable base 40% PvP DR, noncritical/regular strikes against another player have a maximum efficacy of 60% (100% - 40% base DR). Any extra defensive DR a player has is subtracted from 60%. If a player has 20% defensive DR, and you don't have more than 80% resist ignore, your hits will be 60%-20%=40% effective. If you have 100% resist ignore then you will overcome their 80% ArP resist AND 20% defensive DR, so your noncrit hits will be 60% effective. That is the gist. It can pay off well to your damage to stack ArP to get beyond 80% resist ignored.
Noncritical hits against another full tenacity player can be up to 60% effective. There are exceptions for certain feats and boons but otherwise the ArP/ArPResist/PvPDR/DefensiveDR system works.
CRIT STRIKE RESISTANCE
Critical hits are a different story. Critical hits seem to be 20% effective and often do less damage than noncritical hits, even sometimes with a vorpal/150% crit severity. Ever heard of a game where critical strikes are weaker than normal hits? Only Neverwinter. Armor penetration stacked beyond 80%RI to reduce a target's defense DR does not seem to apply to your critical strikes - they are still 20% effective regardless, so if you stack ArP to say, 90-110% RI, the damage benefit seems to be completely wasted with crit hits.
Why are critical hits 20% effective? Seems crit hit resistance 40% and pvp base damage resist 40% are added together to give 40+40 = 80% resistance to crit hits. Along with crit severity suppression, the result is that without a vorpal, noncritical hits very often hit harder than your critical hit against other players . And if you have stacked ArP high enough this is almost always true if your RI% is not applied to crit - noncrit will hit harder.
Unless you use a vorp and have mechanics that rely on crit procs, might as well throw it away for Power/ArP. Without a vorp, Crit is literally dragging down your damage in pvp oO With a vorp and without ArP stacked, crit averages out to a slight overall improvement in damage, but not much. Just do a match and run ACT, you will see.
TY norm and yorg for testing help.
Can anyone offer additional information/correction on crit?
Crit strike resistance 40%, PvP Base DR 40%, PvP Crit suppression - how does it all interact?
Crit worse than noncrit, working as intended?
Post edited by zeusom on
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
a) 18k (base damage with first strike) * 1.15 ( combat advantage ) * 0.85 ( 100% DR - 85% RI ) * 0.6 ( 40% drtnt ) = 10.5k
b) 18k * (1+ ( 0.15 (ca) + 0.8 (crit severity of an orc ) + 0.15 ( feat ) + 0.1 (artifact o.h. class feature ) + 0.5 ( perfect vorp ) )) *0.85 *0.2 ( 40%DRtnt + 40% CritRestnt ) = 8.3 k.
If Crit res work like this. At mod 5 calculation was crit damage * (1-tenacity%)^2 so :
b2) 18k * 2.7 * 0.85 * (1-0.4)^2 = 18k * 2.7 * 0.85 * 0.36 = 14.87. Since last patch, i crit for 12k against a majority of people, so, i don't know if correct calculation is b) or b2).
Ideas ?
I can verify that w/out it I was hitting harder normals than crits on a pretty regular basis. Why is this okay? I honestly think Crush doesn't even know about it. But I guess we'll never know.
- Tenacity
- Power
- HP
- Defence (irrelevent, see below)
- Recovery (always relvent, see below)
- Deflect for the classes that can stack it
The full radiant crowd must be having a field day...
Defence is no longer relevant as you get 40% from tenacity alone. If you use negation that's 70% DR already. And everyone can get the remaining 10% DR from armor alone.
And you're forgetting Recovery which is relevant for any class but HRs and Justice Paladins.
the classes that have deflect boosting feats and lots of base deflect, benefit clearly over defense builds.
And for CWs, GWFs and the Lostmauth set ...
But something doesn't sit right when a critical hit does less damage than a normal hit. That will need to be changed.
is how things are working right now.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
see: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?952561-Drake-mounts-140-other-ability-fatal-for-PVP!