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The big deal with pvp (short and sweet)
overdriver13
Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
This is the whole situation with domination pvp in a nutshell:
It is incredibly, truly, extremely, FUN. The most fun you are going to have in an action-combat game on your pc. Period.
It is incredibly flawed. Those flaws are listed in many many many places elsewhere, no need to rehash them.
The reason why those flaws are such a big deal is because the game its self (nwo domination pvp) IS so fun. This is why the whole thing is such a massive issue. Players feel like the flaws that exist are really only so huge because they are apparently minor flaws which exist to an extreme degree.
Like a shockingly beautiful smile with a cavity that just gets worse and worse and spreads and now teeth are either rotted and hanging or have fallen out. You can't help but say to that chick, "Hun, you are GORGEOUS, but please please please, fix those teeth!". You are not going to stop sleeping with her (playing the game), she is smoking hot after all. But you are not going to make her your girlfriend or really get into any kind of commitment. You don't want your friends to see those teeth. She comes off as hot but trashy in that way. So you stick around (of course) but you HAVE to keep saying something for gods sake.
I hope this clarifies things. They were never that complicated, but I am sure there are a a lot of people who are like, "Whats the big deal, just don't play pvp if its that bad". It is fun and addicting. But so flawed. Writing in hopes it is made better. Please no complaints and if any response at all, please be constructive and positive. Neverwinter, fix those teeth. :P
It is incredibly, truly, extremely, FUN. The most fun you are going to have in an action-combat game on your pc. Period.
It is incredibly flawed. Those flaws are listed in many many many places elsewhere, no need to rehash them.
The reason why those flaws are such a big deal is because the game its self (nwo domination pvp) IS so fun. This is why the whole thing is such a massive issue. Players feel like the flaws that exist are really only so huge because they are apparently minor flaws which exist to an extreme degree.
Like a shockingly beautiful smile with a cavity that just gets worse and worse and spreads and now teeth are either rotted and hanging or have fallen out. You can't help but say to that chick, "Hun, you are GORGEOUS, but please please please, fix those teeth!". You are not going to stop sleeping with her (playing the game), she is smoking hot after all. But you are not going to make her your girlfriend or really get into any kind of commitment. You don't want your friends to see those teeth. She comes off as hot but trashy in that way. So you stick around (of course) but you HAVE to keep saying something for gods sake.
I hope this clarifies things. They were never that complicated, but I am sure there are a a lot of people who are like, "Whats the big deal, just don't play pvp if its that bad". It is fun and addicting. But so flawed. Writing in hopes it is made better. Please no complaints and if any response at all, please be constructive and positive. Neverwinter, fix those teeth. :P
Post edited by overdriver13 on
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ice wind dale is the best mod until now and with the most unique setting. if something they should learn from ice wind dale. rng and no instance swapping were the only things that werent that good but no even that bad. It s the only mod after sharandar without recycled stuffs and with the most features.
this makes no sense and i would like you to explain better. Because if someone like kebab and i dont, this does not mean that i m thinking to uninstall my life.
when this happened?
without pvp i wouldnt be here.
lets hope i m the only one but looking at half my guild im not
Over 2 million and they don't even have a fraction of that today. So what happened from that time to now? That's one link I'll find server populations from that time till now as well and post them. However now you know or your at least starting to see what the real issue is. Let's halve that 2 million even say a few thousand for Bots kiddies or various other miscellaneous reason. Even one million they are no where near that and they need or must look at WHY let's look at the changes that were coming at the time of that. Feywild and after that dread ring. Growing player base boasting 2 million players. Icewind comes out barely a fraction of what they had is left. Why hmmmm ...... this isn't Korea players here don't tend to care for two things. PvP has,very little interest yes it can be entertaining but beyond a secondary distraction the majority or players are not interested two American gamers are not fond of grinding endlessly. Personally I love grinding farming but I'm a minority in that. Should I say add more refinements more gear that need more and more points. They would drive off to many customers. I'm not saying anything I can't go prove with a little research.
you proved nothing.
you proved we arent 2M players playing. Ok.
how is it my fault as pvp player?
monkeyjumping
yea it must me that xD
Given your join date (when you started playing) and the mortal combat reference, I have to assume you don't have much of a basis of experience to form any kind of substantial opinion. So there is nothing here really worth responding to. Good day.
You are only showing that Neverwinter has been losing players for quite awhile, not why. The reason they are losing players is pretty clear if you actually have been on the forums on played the game for awhile: the players are very clear about what they want and cryptic fails in delivering that.
The only link between a falling player base and pvp is in your own head, based on your own bias against pvp.
1-New Players cannot get competitive gear when existing players have 24k GS. Lack of gear means players get 1-2 shotted.
2-PvP Gear cost too much which also means it takes too long to get it and no one wants to endure being 1-2 shotted for 2,000 hours to earn enough
3-Grim (which used to be the tier 2 PvP gear you could get after buying Gauntlgrym gear for AD and trading it at a PvP was removed.
4- The existing queue system does not take into consideration Gear score, this means most players who try PvP or have an alt end up with items 1 and 2.
Suggestions
There are a few solutions. Let's face it, Sharandar, Dread Ring, IWD and everything else is one long time bound slog for.....gear and boons. Players work very hard for their gear, using an equalized system would not be popular if that was the only option. Tera however offers the following and it works well.
1. Equalized PuG (all gear is replaced like Corsairs Stronghold in Tera)
2. Non equalized PuG (bring your own gear) increase rewards.
3. Equalized Pre-Made (all gear is replaced like Corsairs Stronghold in Tera)
4. Non equalized Pre-Made (bring your own gear) increase rewards.
I suggest they go the equalized route and also lower the cost of Profound PvP gear. The reward for equalized is glory only. Remove the Seal of Triumph currency requirement. Add new maps. It's not like you don't have the tools and assets now is it?
The general percentage of these "24k GS" players are extremely low when compared to the overall scope of people who enjoy PvP... not to mention with my recent personal projects/experiences I've more or less come to the conclusion that "massively outgeared as to have no hope" situations don't happen as often as people say they do -- ESPECIALLY when you are in the low-mid gear ranges.
People exaggerate. All the time. The "gear mismatch" line of complaints is is one of them. The only hopelessly outmatched situations I've consistently experienced, was being outmatched in general skill level.
When you're the only veteran player (using a fresh, new alt) amidst four players who are (very obviously) totally green (judging by how they act, how they fight, and their build/preparation), you tend to notice which of the players in the other team are someone like you. When there are two~ three of them in the other team, whereas you're the only player who knows how domination works, then your team's screwed.
Compared to how PvP gear is earned in other games, NW games aren't any special in regards to how much time investment you need. Rather, the main issue is with how they've set up the F2P model which implies monetary spending for RP.
The existing queue has something. Nobody knows what it is for sure. But like mentioned above, the odds where people meet gs mismatch, is grossly overexaggerated in these forums, often used as an DEUS EX MACHINA excuse in place of the most obvious reason as to why one side gets crushed.
No. It's not gear.
The main reason behind grievances in PvP at the non-super-premade level, average PuG domination matches, is simply skill and L2P issue. We DO need a better working ELO in place.
About the pvp que, i heard alot that the que isnt balance because of lack of player pvp at that time. Which i believe its true. I qued for pvp at the same time with my guildies the other day separately ( not in party) at peak hour. He is 20k+ gs and i m 17k gs. For the whole 3 hour i pvped, i never met him once in the battle. Infact all player i met were either 15k to 18k gs at most. So the system is actualy working but its just lack of population to have it work correctly. Out of 10 match in a day, i might meet 1 or 2 premade with high GS. Most of the time is either 12k gs or 16k gs. So i got no quarrel with it.
U know the thing about the forum is not everything said here is true. U have to go experience it urself to know if its a problem. I started this game as purely PVE player. I dun pvp because i read all sort of complain about it in the forum that i thought pvp in this game is broken. Until recently when i have nothing much to do..i started pvp and i find that things arent that bad after all. The only thing that turn me off is trash talker during the match but some forumer suggest i mute them and i did. Well not really muted them but just consciously so i can still see things like "ranger go to 2". But anything more than that i just ignore it.
Gear plays a massive roll. Without a doubt it does.
It is a factor in low-level PVP (twinking) and it is a factor at level 60 PVP. I am currently twinking at level 45; normal Plague and rank 5s and 6s. I repeatedly ran in to a group of people that had ranks 8 through 10 and greater/perfect enchants during a PVP hour and I was torn to pieces. On the other side of the coin if I come up against non-twinks I can and do win matches pretty much by myself. Factor in Xvim and Mulhorand sets (which I don't have) and the gap is considerable.
My level 45 TR was rolled with the intention of me not spending a dime on it. Everything will be bought with AD and Glory generated by playing. I do hwoever have the luxury of 4 other characters, so I can spend my invocation coins to get Sharandar sparks, so my boon progression will be quicker than a person that has one toon. I also had the added advantage of using an established toon to buy Dragon Bone weapons for it and donating rank 5 and 6 enchants. I could immediately start PVPing with a DC artifact as well as soon as the slot was unlocked.
This advantage is carried through in to level 60, because if I wanted to I could immediately by a full T1 PVP set for my TR when it hits 60, not to mention I could us one of my other characters to buy him an artifact belt, gemmed shirt and pants and Ancient/PVP rings.
I was actually excluding PvP under lv60 and 'twinking', since everything is inherently haywire in the first place.
When you do reach lv60, things are different, however. I propose that after you reach max level with your lv45 character, try recording down the average gear scores of your teammates and the enemy team for some time. I think you'll be surprised to find out that the massive imbalance in gs really don't happen all that much.
That is my plan, to see what I come up against off the bat.
I may still have an advantage though as I am leveling only by PVPing, so my glory stash and access to PVP gear will be easier than a person playing one toon learning all aspects of the game. Due to PVP progress I also already have access to a PVP cloak, 2 tasks away from a PVP artifact (should get that well before 60) and upon hitting 60 I can choose between any combination of 8 artifacts.
That kind of attitude is not going to get more players, which matters more than anything else. PVP is not fun for new players, PVP that its only meant for a select clique of players in the know - what will that exactly lead to, financial success ?
What is it with this playerbase? I enjoy both, in every game Ive ever played. PVP is lots of fun and so isnt pve.
Since the two kids in the same room cant share a toy, cryptic should seperate the forums and shouldve done it quite awhile ago.
I laugh at the focus on PVP part though, there really has been little focus to pvp in this game. Even that pvp mod 3, had loads and loads of pve stuff to do.
The failing of this game in mod 4-5 WAS simple, explaing by the vast majority of the player base and only now are they starting to revert it back.
RP grinding and Boon daily grinding given to the extent they did, simply locked many of us out of both gear and ablity to play alts.
Thats not good, for any MMO ive ever seen. They went overboard , WAY overboard with it and only now scaling it back some.
ITs one of those things, is it too little too late? We will have to wait and see.
There is nothing more boring, then solo grinding RP.. nothing. Second to that is doing the vast amount of boring dailies they gave us for ToD campaign, with the LONGEST amount of DAILY time ever (around a hour for each toon each day)
What were they thinking!
It's skill at all levels. Even at the super-premade level...in fact, at that level it's all skill.
But it's also easier for people to complain about gear imbalances then to admit they need more practice, or they lost because someone is just better.
Look, take enchants. The difference in damage between someone in all R10's versus all R8's is about 2-3%. But people will scream hyperbole all day long about how they got one-shotted by a guy in all R10's or how they can't scratch a 20k GS player. And when people are talking about 24k GS players? That's extremely rare except for a couple classes with feats that give them big stat boosts, but it hardly matters when it comes to actual player effectiveness.
Build will almost always be a top factor. And this does come down to broken skills or flavor-of-the-month classes, which I admit can be frustrating. But past about 16k GS, the amount of power gained per point of GS diminishes rapidly, and skill takes over.
But the single toughest thing to do in PvP? Admit that someone is better than you.
it's like having a child you know is a genius and has so much potential and can do so much in life
but all he wants to do is get wasted on heroin and work at mcdonalds
U forgot to add in player with legendary item which usually they are in 20k+ gs bracket. Legendary artifact equiptment adds in extra enchant slot while legendary artifact give some nice stat which mean it add up the item effectiveness by quite a value. I m 17k gs and in my experience..item still makes different in pvp till they are around 20k gs and above which i agree it makes very little different. and more on skill level.
I can only speak for CWs, but the difference in damage between the Epic orb and the Legendary orb (including R10 in the extra slot) is about 3-3.5%.
I consider 3-3.5% well within the margin of error for a highly skilled player.
So.. what about extra damage from double ring slots, orange neck, offhand and belt and 3 orange artifact..
So if the average player has all epics instead (and I doubt that) we are talking about a 15% percent difference if not more.
Maybe even 20% total.
A 20% difference is huge and impossible to overcome with skill alone.
We havent even mentioned the addional boons (not that the players couldnt get that, but we are talking at least 60-75 days give or take to get them all or at least to boon 5 or 6 (7 is pretty ridicolous to grind for more then one toon)
So ya.. 1 person with all of these items will totally dominat a match, there will be nothing you can do as a team to take down a person with everything like this.
In the old days when people would cry about grinding out gear sets ect, I had no pity, but lately.. man its asking alot for people to stay in the game for that long to be able to compete.
Even if you only need 80% of this, we are talking about a pretty long time of grinding.
Difference between veteran advantage and veteran slaughter.
Im hoping the release of non bound RP will help out in this, but we will have to wait and see how cheap it will get to help the playerbase progress.
you're still going around posting this irrelevant scenario haha
no one is talking about r8s vs r10s man.....you're right about the trivial difference in the scenario that you're talking about...also, power has no DR afaik
the gear gap that causes people to get up in arms is when you're just a 14k or so going against 22ks...this is an incredible and almost insurmountable gear gap
get it through your head that this is what bothers people, ~14ks vs 20+ks....that's a gear gap, it's an undeniable fact
stop trying to say that skill is THE determining factor in an outcome at all levels, it's simply not true, and more importantly very misleading....the apt comment is to say that skill CAN play a big role (great 14k vs terribad 20k)
but yes, you're irrelevant and pointless argument about there not being a gear gap at the higher levels is true...but NO ONE is talking about that
i really can´t find anything funny in the actual PVE content in this game, but i stay and hope beeing normally a PVE player, played a lot of rpg, mmorpg started by baldurs gate ended here atm, waiting for some other games to come...
i have to admit : after 4 weeks of leveling i was extremely bored after doing all dungeons with low gear
the only reason i stick with this game is PVP (seldom played PVP in WOW, Dark soul-its fun)
PVP is pain and fun, i am ambivalent about it, it is challenging and sometimes redicules, in 90% caused by matchmaking and player who "just step in to do the daily" wearing PVE gear and having 25k HP, who start yelling beeing sloughtered in a row
but all in all the only challenging contest is PVP, if mod 6 will give any content that affords a pure healer or damagedealer with stats and special gear to beat a boss after wiping lots of times, and if there was any system of logical reward to do so, i would be the first to go back and focuss on PVE
@ironzerg79 legendary stuff gives you 4 extra slots! + extra feads, i think you really are wrong about seeing no difference between a full purple or a full legendary equipped player facing each other in PVP
Your point is separate from what I was responding to. I was responding to a post that pretty much said nwo pvp is horrible and is why nwo is failing as a game.
PvP Needs many fixes. One of them is a pve "tutorial" where the player has a team of npcs and plays against a team of npcs. It would be guided in the same way the beginning of the game its self its self is guided, when you step onto the beach. The player would have to win three progressively more difficult matches before being allowed to que for "real pvp". This would be at level 10.
Beyond that, for new players, you can easily be geared to 12k at level 60. The auction house has a ton of extremely cheap t2 gear. You can get two wod boons by 60. There are a ton of good builds available everywhere.
It cannot be made easier for the new player to compete in pvp. Compete as in having 50/50 ratio of wins losses, kills and deaths.
1. The skill gap. People being absolutely clueless about pvp, quing for pvp and pretty much dong everything they can during the match to make it go as fast as possible without actually fighting or trying to win. People will afk on a bridge or in some corner, will run away from opponents the entire match, hide behind team mates and pewpew until they get in a littledanger than they run away, never contesting, always leeching node caps. These same players que at level 60 wearing level 50 green gear with most enchant slots empty and some gear slots empty also.
2. The gear gap. Sorry but 12-14k team vs the 18-20k team has no chance. It does not happen every time. It is an excuse any time a clueless player loses. It burns me up to see that character in green level 50 gear with empty gear slots and maybe one or two rank 2 or 3 enchants yelling about p2w and how matchmaking is such a fail. The bar can only be set so low. On the other hand, five 12-14k players playing their butts off verse a team of 18-20ks is heart breaking. All it takes is one 18k-20k toon each on the end nodes and three 18-20k toons at mid and gg. That is just wrong.
So players need to play better (the game needs to facilitate that via a pvp tutorial) and matchmaking needs to be more effective. Both are pretty much facts and it is useless and counterproductive to only advocate one while denying the other.
I can tell you what happened. They took a game name with a lot of history and ruined it. Never winter Nights on Aol was the best in it day and guess what pvp is what people want. I hate questing there is nothing about it I like. I like the challenge of playing against another player instead of a boring encounter. Pve has no Npc manipulation what so ever there mark to a certain spot and remain there. Balders gate was good as well then came Never Winter Shadows of the under dark. These where bases on true D n D not what cryptic thinks is d n d. But again I know it a free to play game. But for us that do spend money on these types of games to keep you player able to pay for free we would love to see improvements on the current content before we move on to more junk. Seriously Mod ^ will be the end to this game. Just Google PERFECT WORLD ENTERTAINMENT HIT WITH POTENTIALLY MASSIVE LAYOFFS. You get the Idea of what really happaning to this game. Wish you luck.