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Module 6 grievances
k9madrush
Member Posts: 534 Bounty Hunter
With the upcoming mod 6 every class will get large HP pool including range class
my point is why would range classes get too much durability and on top of that "armed to the teeth"
with all sorts of crowd control and utility this will be unfair for melee class. It does not make sense CW and HR have the most outstanding damage and crowd control while DC and SW have damage and heal YES THEY ARE ALSO RANGE. And why would you give them bonus damage while the target is under abnormal status? Melee class is less rewarding now
my point is why would range classes get too much durability and on top of that "armed to the teeth"
with all sorts of crowd control and utility this will be unfair for melee class. It does not make sense CW and HR have the most outstanding damage and crowd control while DC and SW have damage and heal YES THEY ARE ALSO RANGE. And why would you give them bonus damage while the target is under abnormal status? Melee class is less rewarding now
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I don't know how archery or trapper HRs work, but combat HRs are Melee.
While DCs can cast most everthing at range, it's very hard to target at range.
I bought up the point in an earlier post that leather/cloth wearing classes should have less HP on their gear than Plate/chain wearing classes (except maybe SW, as they are meant to be a tankier mage) . with all the piercing and unavoidable damage us frontline "tanks" and "meele" fighters need to have Higher HP via scaling and gear. it should not be possible to acheive hp higher than or as high as a tank/frontliner on a backline mage /ranged fighter
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
it should be like this
Cloth users should have lowest durability and slightly lower stats BECAUSE RANGE IS ALREADY AN ADVANTAGE OVER MELEE
Leather user should be not so tough and not too fragile
Plate user should be highest durabiliy with a reasonable superiority in stats because they are melee
you have barrier, teleport, all of your encounters and at-wills have crowd control and range is a big advantage over melee, who needs to eat tons of damage before he can deal damage.
For PVP, things may be different, but for PVE as a CW, you're going take damage by choice to do your job, otherwise you'll hear complaints about failing to control the mob.
I personally think all the armor ignoring/piercing damage is absurd (I play a GWF also). And as things stand, defense/armor is not as cost effective as HP's. But the hit point stacking armor for a CW comes at rather steep price, an up to 30% DPS reduction for the whole party (since they have no set bonus).
Plate? If you're a GF or GWF, nothing much you can do about it.
On behalf of DCs, well mail users, a half paladin and leader class. The HP is warranted.
And honestly, our CCs don't work or is wonky. Try playing one, you'll know what I mean.
Overall with stat curve hit, no DR is going to save you with a mountain of hp with the damage dps class is scaling to and the ArP which will tear the DR up like tissue.
Hp should be as follows on gear I think
GF>GWF>Paladin>SW>DC>HR>CW>TR
Paladin below GF/GWF due to self heal capability but I'm pretty sure GF/Paladin share gear so that means theyll both be on top as the true tanks.
GWF in a high point due to having no reliable sustain/cc and requiring high HP to stay in close combat.
Warlock due to CON being a main stat.
Dc as highest of mages due to wearing mail armor and such.
HR is a leather wearer but does fight in meele thus needing more hp
CW cloth wearer and have the most ranged damage and CC
TR has Both Stealth and higher deflect severity than any other class, thus less hp is acceptable.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
No. TR shouldn't have less HP than CW simply because it's a melee class. Melee class need a bigger health pool to make use of deflection and just because they will receive all those tiny hit that melee won't (normally).
Control power is here to balance for tinier HP pool and less defensive stat. After that, things like Oppressor's gameplay that promote being in melee is wrong. a CW shouldn't want to be in melee range because it perform way better than at range. It's a design problem.
TR has arguably the most survivability and mitigation boosting powers in the game that arent direct heals, with ITC, Smoke, Daze, Permastealth, good dodge animation, higher deflect severity than any other class, Etc. I have a 14k TR that without any outstanding gear can take down people 18-19k with little hassle, I'd go as far as to say that a decent TR could defeat 3 decent GWF/GF by himself, even if they are all at a similar gear level.
I didnt mention how far below though due to numbers not being something we have power over deciding. if they had a bit less in the way of AOE daze / deflection all over the place I'd warrant their hp needing to be higher than both HR and CW. Perhaps HR/CW/TR should all be roughly the same levels of HP. while the tankier classes are higher.
Do you agree with the placing of other classes in my example though?
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Well my friend this is nearly as it is in real DnD or was, going through the changes in editions.
Sadly game isn't following DnD, except in pictures and a bit of lore, but there are some odd things too.
Melee up in front, i mean the real heavy fighters. Middle bracket for the mixed guys and lower Hp pool for spell casters and rogues.
Not fair true, giving an OP TR the same amount of high HP pool, like a poor and broken class, which can only rely on HP.
In DnD fighters are clumsy in their heavy armor and with their shields, but excel in power and with a high Hp pool, where as a rogue is quick, a CW devastating, but has much much lower HP and are fragile.
Not here, failure again.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
HP pool as high as fighters' is indeed absurd. But balance in this game is a dream and fighters are, right now, left behind.
PnP D&D is where a lot of my suggestions come from (at least as far as I remember it /the new stuff I read). such as changes to feats and new Encounters (as well as my suggestion to rework GWF to Battlerager fighter). cool too see someone picked that up.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
ArP will be useless in PvP with the tenacity upgrade. Most PvPers will be walking around with 70-80% ArP reduction. 10-20% defense ignore is what you'll achieve at most.
You do know with tenacity, the total DR is DR x tenacity % right? (tenacity 'amplifies that DR)
If inherent DR is reduced to zero, only DR left is tenacity DR.
ArP reduces that inherent DR which comes from gears.
What is this only 10-20% RI are you talking about when a GF can stack 40% without tenacity amplification yet?
While CWs should not have as many HP as a GF or OP, only in single target fights do CWs have decent ranged damage. Even then, they're behind SW, HRs and DCs. My CW gets hit more than my GWF, because the CW grabs aggro and the GWF just tickles their backs.
I just see 130 k hp CW/HR/DC/SW coming with full tene pvp build .
You should learn to read patch notes before bashing:
"Stats: Tenacity: Now directly reduces the effect of Armor Penetration against you. Base Tenacity is increased to 20%, and Tenacity's affects against Armor Penetration are doubled."
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?850201-Elemental-Evil-Preview-Patch-NotesNW-45-20150217a-2&p=10158571&viewfull=1#post10158571
And yet Rogues traditionally have a d6 hit die since 1st Edition, and Wizards a d4. 1d8 and 1d6 in 5th edition, respectively.
Regardless of whether you believe TR is overpowered or not(It certainly is not in PvE), if you want to adhere to the pen and paper game, Rogues have more HP than Wizards.
so TR can´t count as melee cause he is allways in your back
GW has problems but he has his shield that absorbes all damage, 1vs1 he can compete if played properly
GWF, hm ok is a problem but they have lots of HP themself, sprint stunns, jump etc
atm i have 40k hp with my warlock, every slot is used for it, thats all, GS 16,6k
how much do u have?
Hi mate, thank you for the recognition, i was answering you before, but you know what happened...;)
It is always a pleasure to meet a real hard core DnD player, who isn't just playing devil's advocate for his OP class, but knows the material, the core rules, the lore.
My wish is, that those ones, who are responsible for the class balance changes, would also know as much from DnD like we do!
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
True, but they don't have as much as real heavy fighter melee classes!
The fact is we are arguing about some bad changes that are actually all funny in an ironic way, cause they are all written down in the rule books of DnD.
That's why i recently always say, pictures DnD, lore mostly DnD, rules and class balances zero DnD.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
HR CW DC should not have less health really. By design all classes should have equal possibility for HP pool. Difference should come from +N in con and Armor Class. Let me explain my thinking about all this in quote below. With this changes I think we could achive CON build classes to have bigger HP pool plus classes with higher armor class having more defense.
You could still build CON HR and get bigger HP pool but you will get less damage/ less dodge/ less arm pen. And you would still be able only to wear leather - basic 19% armor class and not 28 % armor class as GWF from example above.
As further thinking toughness feat can be adjustted to give more % of HP. Maybe increase accual bonus to CON stat.
This is not pure D&D d4/ d6 ets but I belive this is fairly easy fix for this game. as we know our devs a a bit "lazy" when it comes to changes.