Melee classes handicapped in pvp vs ranged?

bitterblur · February 2015

I believe most people are aware of the damage resistance cap of 80%. I did some informal PVE testing on a sent GWF after reading that unstoppable was an additive to damage resistance. Sentinel's unstoppable grants 40%-80% DR depending on when you proc it. Basically after the informal testing I found that with no gear and proc'ing unstoppable for the 80% DR the mobs hit me for the same amount of damage as when my DR was 40% and unstoppable was proc'ed for the 80% bonus. The average GWF can easily breach this DR cap of 80% and waist DR.

Tenacity was described as a multiplier for DR. Even with tenacity you cannot have usable DR above 80%. Damage resistance most would think is supposed to be one of the strengths of a GWF or a GF But ranged classes who can stack large amounts of armor pen can take away that strength. It really seems like an uphill battle attempting to pvp with any melee class because of this (current nerf's/buff's aside).

Range classes have a range and dps advantage while having low DR as a disadvantage. Melee classes have low dps as a disadvantage and a capped DR (that can be reduced with armor pen) as an advantage? Unless the DR cap is increased for melee classes or armor pen has larger diminishing returns or even a cap of its own I don't see the point of being melee in pvp.

Any helpful input or thoughts on this subject would be awesome. :P

emilemo · February 2015

"GWF,GF classes handicapped in pvp vs ranged? "

In a word YES. Melee suffers currently vs Ranged and thats that. As for why there are plenty of threads here and on the preview forum detailing how the nerfs over time turned us heavy fighters into weaklings forced to stay on the edge of bis to compete

PS: The Paladin - from what Ive tested on Preview the Paladins best bet would be to survive on a node i.e hold the node. Other than that Tank Palas are non-factors in PVP. Healing Palas can fill a DC spot

vasdamas · February 2015

Not to mention CWs automatically push their enemies away once they get hit.

rubens14 · February 2015

I agree totally. As a DC who only wants to survive in the node, this DR caping is unpleasant... as arpen don't have limits. With this new enchants + arpen + skills who reduce defense + piercing damage, 80% DR will be the same to have 0% DR.

vasdamas · February 2015

rubens14 wrote: »

I agree totally. As a DC who only wants to survive in the node, this DR caping is unpleasant... as arpen don't have limits. With this new enchants + arpen + skills who reduce defense + piercing damage, 80% DR will be the same to have 0% DR.

Way to stop everyone complaining about piercing damage

hypervoreian · February 2015

"Because the objective is to capture and hold the nodes, this forces ranged characters to stay on node if they want to win the game."

Wrong.They occupy the node and then take a dinstance from it.Either you stay on node and die from constrictive arrow etc , and Cws mass effect3 weapons.Or try to go after them:In either case they win time or outright kill you.

"Against ranged characters that attempt to shoot from pillars or bridges, it's easy to capture the node while staying out of their line of sight."

Staying out of range???Cw has 90s range while pyllars from node area in one third from that range.Gosh.

"Second, melee characters have excellent protection against ranged attacks, "

Excellent protection?i have 50% dr but the ranged classes have so much enormous DPS that 50% is irrelevant.50% of 25k ice knife and 20k storm spell means that in 2 secs (literally) i am almost in half health.And still the cw is 60-70s range away.Not to mention that there is a stat in the game that reduces DR.And you stack on it.While is there a stat that reduces cc?CC resist.yea.If you spend 6m AD you might have 6% in the end. lol.

"GFs can maintain their block for a very long time. "

8 secs actually.Yea .Great duration.Untill your buddies the HR/Trs can put a daze/constricting arrow on them.Then all Gfs are dead.

"Both have a number of medium-range attacks, which basically covers enough of a node to be all the range that's necessary."

They don't.

"As long as the game is about capping nodes, this restricts the ability of ranged characters to maximize their range advantage, and forces the game to revolve around areas that melee characters can control."

See my above posts.

"The classes that are best able to carry a team and win games are those "

The classes than can carry a team in mod5 are the classes that kill quickly and gain the numerical advantage for their team.Stop repeating mod1/2 cliches and matras.These are long over.Don't decrease your self's credibility.

"In almost every module, one of the dominant PVP classes has been a melee class or build"

Not true.But is still one class that always has been the among the top predators in pvp and king in pve.Cw.

"Mechanically, being ranged is obviously advantageous, but by and large, ranged characters have not dominated over melee and hybrid characters, and it's often been more the other way around."

I can give you acces to my 20k gf .Go against a 20kgs pvp Cw.Or trapper Hr.or Tr.Please enlighen us with your experiences

Edit:i forgot to mention...CWs Should no longer IGNORE 66% of TENACITY for CC purposes.Thanks

svekolj · February 2015

macjae wrote: »

I can verify that it's true; it was implemented because of CW reliance on cc, when initial testing of Tenacity indicated that it would nerf CW cc too much. In any case, at the moment it remains a nonsensical complaint, because other classes have cc in amounts that make CWs jealous anyway, from DC chain stuns to TR chain dazes, or GF chain stuns + prones + finisher, and complaining about CWs having some cc is akin to complaining about tanks having tankiness or strikers having damage. It's barking up the wrong tree.

nah, dcs aren't comparable to wizards- only trs are as annoying(rangers close second with interrupting abilities) and if you actually somehow manage to get gf to get that close to you then you deserve everything you get

benskix2 · February 2015

I agree with the premise of the OP. The reason that Melee classes are currently handicapped though is because damage overall is TOO HIGH in pvp, for pretty much every class. So standing on a node does not matter because if you try and stand in one place while someone ranged is attacking you, you are going to die long before you flip the point. That didn't use to be the case, and IMO should not be the case.

benskix2 · February 2015

Lets be realistic here, people are running no more than 25% tenacity usually, ignoring 66% of that only result in a boost of 16% in control duration on skills that last maybe a second and a half. Since they nerfed orb of imposition this really isn't an issue.

thestaggy · February 2015

macjae wrote: »

Because the objective is to capture and hold the nodes, this forces ranged characters to stay on node if they want to win the game. Against ranged characters that attempt to shoot from pillars or bridges, it's easy to capture the node while staying out of their line of sight.

1 - Smart ranged characters will lure you off node and kill you, or CWs use the repel-entangling-frost-ice knife combo that my GF has repeatedly fallen victim to. So there is no reason why a smartly-played ranged character has to risk its life by hoping on a node and contesting it. They can kill from afar or lure you off.

2 - If the CW does step on node it has Shield, the tankiest mechanic in the game. Fight a CW that has a Barkshield with Shield on tab and knows how to use his dodges and you are going to have a hard time.

3 - CWs, at Hotenow, can freeze me from the pillars above Node 2 till the large pillars at the bottom of the staircase. If it was not for those big pillars they could still get you if you stood on the stairs. Only breaking line of sight puts a melee fighter out of their range.

piejal · February 2015

Gwf got unstopable and GF got shield for a reason
This is about gameplay if you don't understand or can't max the potency i suggest you change class

thestaggy · February 2015

macjae wrote: »

So what you're saying is that you allow yourself to get lured off. There are two versions of that:
1. The node belongs to your team; going off node and chasing the ranged character does you no harm. Him not going on node actually harms his team, because you're getting points ticking in, which is ultimately far more valuable than getting kills.
2. The node belongs to his team; in this case, you're better off tanking on the node until you capture it. He'll have to hop on the node if you're close to capping to prevent you from doing so, or he'll be faced with scenario #1. If he manages to kill you, you'll still have blocked his team's point generation. If a CW is able to kill a GF quickly in a one on one situation, especially without getting close enough to try to get behind the block, that GF probably wasn't played or built very well, or was outgeared by a lot.

A good GF will also learn the timing windows in which to hit CWs and use powers that work well with that.

I am a Conqueror that sacrifices Shield Talent and does not use Profound gear, so my guard is not endless. 7 - 8 seconds and no more. I do not run Iron Warrior or Into the Fray, so I do not recover it as fast as a GF that runs those can. Please DO NOT come at me with ''change your rotation''. I run a load out that works for me.

If I am flipping the node Most CWs and SWs will sit off node and hold down left or right click and at some point I have to drop guard, at this point, especailly against a CW, I am open to their control. SWs generally are too slow casting to prone me, but they can pour on some real damage once guard is down. If I have SoS up then I don't mind, they kill themselves. But CWs, good ones, can wrap a GF up pretty quickly if it is caught out with guard.

If I already hold the node and no one else is around, then I'll chase the ranged pew-pewer down. Stupid ones are caught with ease, good ones can be a pain.

Then, with all due respect, you're either being outgeared, or you have a bad build with low damage. A well-built, equally geared GF or GWF is capable of potentially one-rotationing a CW that they can catch, regardless of Shield. (Note: This may be gear-dependent; if your gear is very low, Shield may mean more.) Now, if you're a Protector GF using KV to tank, you should be with someone to capitalize on that (but you should also be capable of blocking practically indefinitely). If you're a conqueror GF, you should have no problems going to town on a CW in a 1v1 situation.

I'm a 19k Conqueror with only purple artifact gear, so yes, I do not have orange gear that I am able to ramp my stats up with. Saying that, do not try and tell me that CWs cannot become extremely tanky. CWs can come closer to the tank+DPS specs you think GFs can easily reach. Your logic also implies that skilled CWs do not exist, and that is false. I'm not talking about idiots that sit in the middle of the node, don't move and hold one of their mouse buttons down. And as already mentioned, I do not play as a turtle, so my guard is very limited and I do not care for altering my playstyle so I can hold shift indefinitely as it is not a playstyle that suits me.

Yes, and if you'd cared to examine the map, you'd note that there's a lot of ways to break line of sight on that map, which favors melee characters more than the more open Rivenscar map does. If they stand on the pillar, you can stand directly beneath them and they can't target you. Additionally, if they stand at the edge of the pillar, they're reachable with powers like Lunging Strike and Bull Charge.

Second, a character that gets on a pillar on that map is wasting time, leaving his team to be outnumbered while he gets up there. This is usually far costlier to his team than any added prolongation of his own lifespan that being on a pillar can provide; when he's ready to fight, one of his teammates will have been eliminated, which leaves him fighting against numerical superiority in order to be somewhat more secure against melee attacks. It's simply a bad trade-off that will help the team lose more often than it will contribute to a win, unless the other team reacts in a stupid fashion.

So what you are saying is, I should leave a node red and go and hide under the pillar when the CW/SW knows I am there, stalemating one another? If it is blue I will move off. And did you miss out when I said it is not uncommon for two casters to work in tandem and occupy two pillars on either side of the node? How do you propose that I avoid both simultaneously?

And again, stop speaking as if idiots play casters. Many times I have played cat-and-mouse with a caster on a pillar as he quickly steps back when I approach for a Bull Charge. I know full well that I can knock them off of their perches with the power, but guess what, so do they. The idiots stand on the edge indefinitely. The clever ones play hit and run.

Your advice also totally ignores the fact that I still have to keep an eye open for a TR/HR/GF/GWF/DC that may appear as well, which then usually gives the pillar-sniper all the time in the world to have a go at me.

And AGAIN, not only idiots play casters. I've seen CWs from reputable guilds or CWs with massive gear that have been targeted from the outset go to the pillars if they are dealing with a particularly stubborn GF/GWF, work in tandem with another caster or their own tank, clear the node and then hop down to cap it.

schweifer1982 · February 2015

Mod 6 arp +enchant rework
I think if mele classes like GF GWF Pally will lose all of they DR this is truly a huge disadvatage VS ranged classes .

rayrdan · February 2015

1) ranged class will always out perform a melee one because they need always a target to fire off encounters. then again in the case of CW right clicking cause 16k procs so they dont even need to wait for encounter cooldowns to refresh.
2) this is true for HR too. However to keep spamming encounters they need to come melee every 6-7 seconds.
3) there are some bugs that allow ranged class to perform better:
why HR are semi-undodgable?
why CW shield cant be mitigated? why it ignores piercing damage?
and why spamming pillars without dealing damage causes their capstone to proc healing to full ?

as it is now there is no way to compete with those unless the cheese tr exe or a full AP sabo.
and for what my opinion is worth a conqueror gf is better than a gwf and able of one of the greatest melee burst.

thestaggy · February 2015

rayrdan wrote: »

and for what my opinion is worth a conqueror gf is better than a gwf and able of one of the greatest melee burst.

Depends what gear we are talking about. At high specs an Intimidation Sentinel will wipe the floor with a Conqueror when it comes to burst damage.

schweifer1982 · February 2015

rayrdan wrote: »

1) ranged class will always out perform a melee one because they need always a target to fire off encounters. then again in the case of CW right clicking cause 16k procs so they dont even need to wait for encounter cooldowns to refresh.
2) this is true for HR too. However to keep spamming encounters they need to come melee every 6-7 seconds.
3) there are some bugs that allow ranged class to perform better:
why HR are semi-undodgable?
why CW shield cant be mitigated? why it ignores piercing damage?
and why spamming pillars without dealing damage causes their capstone to proc healing to full ?

as it is now there is no way to compete with those unless the cheese tr exe or a full AP sabo.
and for what my opinion is worth a conqueror gf is better than a gwf and able of one of the greatest melee burst.

Hmm... my GWF deal with grand fissure 500-600 k dmg after lvl 70 my GF after lvl 70 deal with Line Breaker Assault around 30-40 k and my GF is more dps spec then my GWF.
This is more then x10 dmg .

I dont think GWF have less dps then GF.
I also want to point somthing out
Flanking Maneuvers - When you critically strike a foe from behind you knock them prone for 1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2 seconds.
You can reach this whit destroyer or Intimidation Sentinel too.

rayrdan · February 2015

schweifer1982 wrote: »

Hmm... my GWF deal with grand fissure 500-600 k dmg after lvl 70 my GF after lvl 70 deal with Line Breaker Assault around 30-40 k and my GF is more dps spec then my GWF.
This is more then x10 dmg .

I dont think GWF have less dps then GF.
I also want to point somthing out
Flanking Maneuvers - When you critically strike a foe from behind you knock them prone for 1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2 seconds.
You can reach this whit destroyer or Intimidation Sentinel too.

i am talking about lv 60 pvp...
no one is going to pvp at lv 70

mirrorballs · February 2015

I must suggest everyone calm down and try to limit this discussion to pure system-wise, in which case the central theme of the discussion would inevitably be about the "self-roots" with powers.

Frankly, for example, the basic at-will combos for melee classes are all but abandoned in this game because there's no way to make it work under the self-roots. The rate at which people simply move around is much faster than the inherent 'advancement' given to melee at-wills and thus, a standard method of melee attack is made pointless -- hence, people gear up for single-shot attacks to produce massive damage.

IMO, this has made it necessary for the devs to provide melees with gap-closers that is in my view, quite unlike I've seen in any MMOG as of late. Frankly "closing in against a ranged target" isn't much of an issue at all for all three melee classes...

...and of course, this in turn, has weirdly reversed what was inherently advantageous for the ranged classes, now that the melee classes are both swinging around singular-attacks with massive burst damage as well as gap closing.

So, it's yet again a vicious cycle where the devs now need to give ranged classes either extremely high defenses or give extremely high mega-damage to let ranged even the odds against melees with such a small window of opportunity. You now know why the CWs are given the BS procs, or why the DCs need to be that amount of BS unkillable. You also know why a class which has neither, such as the SW, are stuck in a really bad position.

Conversely, with this knowledge, you also now know why TRs are so damned hard to catch -- the way TR defenses and defensive powers are set-up, the way to get past that is constant, repetitive, frequent, persistent attacks. Relatively speaking, among the various methods of attack, a singular, hard, burst attack that is limited in frequency is actually the easiest for the TR to shrug off... and with the above 'vicious cycle' as I have explained, everyone in PvP is set up for those, hence, making it easier for the TR to survive.

...IMO, it's all a result of this vicious cycle which started off from a wrong choice -- namely, the choice to self-root people when using powers and attacks. Seriously, that's like the '90s game design.

hypervoreian · February 2015

Asked by Magenubbie:

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?582751-Cryptic-OFFICIAL-Tenacity-Feedback-Thread/page37

Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.

Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.

We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait"

^^^^^^^^^^

"because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target"
???Why ?Why Gfs must work harder?Do CWs work harder to get defense?Don't we have the same stat curve?Why they have equal access to our main stat,while we have limited access to thiers?Is that fair?

hypervoreian · February 2015

"because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target"

???Why ?Why Gfs must work harder?Do CWs work harder to get defense?Don't we have the same stat curve?Why they have equal access to our main stat,while we have limited access to thiers?Is that fair?

Magenubbie since for you "a Cw with out CC is dead Cw" and accordsing to me "GF with our defense is dead GF".I did not see you to have any handicap in aquiring or nullifying defense.
So my main play stat can be nullified in a million ways ,hey,but yours no!!Melees should not have CC resist!!Great balance

free2pay · February 2015

hypervoreian wrote: »

Magenubbie since for you "a Cw with out CC is dead Cw" and accordsing to me "GF with our defense is dead GF".I did not see you to have any handicap in aquiring or nullifying defense.
So my main play stat can be nullified in a million ways ,hey,but yours no!!Melees should not have CC resist!!Great balance

Same goes for DCs. DC's main defense mechanism should always have been its self healing ability. It's the healing which constitutes to our defense. GF and CW have shields, HR and TR have high deflect and stealth, GWF and SW have mobility. DCs have heals that are buffed by Healing Depression and Righteousness class feature...

A DC who can't heal (in PvP) is a dead DC.

schweifer1982 · February 2015

This was the most honest feedback of all time from a GF

damnacious wrote: »

I'll keep this as simple as direct as possible as i'm really struggling to find the motivation to repeat myself.

Feedback:

[*]The reported and identified problem that existed prior to Mod 5 still exists where increases in the survivability and damage of other classes is not properly and fairly balanced as an increase to the GF's survivability and damage. For example, when a DPS class has their damage capability increased the GF SHOULD automatically gain a proportional increase in it's survivability. Similarly, when a DPS class receives an increase in their survivability then the GF SHOULD automatically receive a proportional increase in their DPS. The problem that has been experienced by GFs now for a very long time is simply that DPS classes will regularly obtain increases in their DPS through patches, dev buffs, item upgrades etc. however, the GF has not and cannot receive a similarly proportional increase in their survivability. This is primarily the largest cause of imbalance between the GF and other classes. I anticipate the Paladin to also suffer the same problem. So, if you increase a class's DPS by 1% then increase the GF's survivability by 1% too. This will greatly assist in balancing the classes.

hypervoreian · February 2015

schweifer1982 wrote: »

This was the most honest feedback of all time from a GF

True.I agree 100%.This is the essense of what GFs and in a lesser extend GWFs face today.Paladin will also has the same fate

pando83 · February 2015

I do agree. Attack power got overall buffed AND DPS were made much easier to land since module 4. Plus all the unmitigated damage. In the meanwhile, fighters, expecially GWFs, were either left behind or nerfed (GWF) in survivability.
Where once you got immortal GWFs, now they are among the easiest targets to take down.

DR do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> now with all the ArP and piercing damage.
GWFs should have temporary HPs absorbing damage as a defensive mechanic now. And a biist to their HP pool.
Damage resistance is useless.

Fighters are supposed to fight in the front line, but if you try and do that now, you die in seconds. Survivability must be brought back in a balanced way to fighters, and expecially to GWFs.

A balanced way to allow fighters to stay in the brawl where they are hit by multiple enemies is to make their survivability increase the more enemies attack them.

Example:

GF---> each enemy attacking you extends your block by 15 degrees behind you. The effect can stack 5 times max. So when 5 enemies attack the GF, their block leaves not a 180° vulnerable spot, but a 105° vulnerable spot allowing them to tank more.

GWF---> temporary HP survivability mechanic increased the same way. The more enemies attack you, the more your temporary HP-based defenses are buffed.

Now fighters are not OP 1v1 but can fight in a brawl long enough instead of being shut down in seconds.

From a 1v1 point of view, as stated by others, if DPS classes and ranged classes in particular are buffed in their DPS, then fighters survivability should increase accordingly.

Example: GWFs were too survivable in module 2. In module 3 it was too much combined with DPS and bugged roar. Fixing Roar and buffing other classes' DPS would be enough. Instead DPS got buffed and buffed on other classes and GWF survivability was heavily nerfed, resulting i the class becoming squishier than TRs, HRs and even CWs.

Determination gain speed should be reverted to how it was before, and DR-based survivability should be replaced by temporary HPs-based mechanics.

Melee classes handicapped in pvp vs ranged?

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