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Tiamat Multi-Problem Solution
arakk00
Member Posts: 166 Arc User
A huge problem in the Tiamat raid is the collection of people who will sit around at the respawn spot doing.. Nothing. And they get the same rewards as the rest of us! 10k GS, 20k+ GS, anyone who doesn't like how the raid is going (and I imagine a number of lazy people) will just AFK at the spawn.
Another huge problem? Total zerg wipes because nobody has/uses the dragon souls! Certain players will just camp Severin until the summoners are down, not bothering with a gem.
Lastly, the clerics. It feels like noone understands how CC works, even those 20k freemium GS purchasers. (Though anyone who did the grind and delving for their GS probably does.)
The big picture? A lack of effort and coordination in most instances of the raid! Understandably, it's very difficult to coordinate 25 people.. But with some tweaking, it'd be less necessary. Allow me to explain!
Most people give the average Dungeon Delve 100% effort for their respective leaderboard cap. The tank wants Immovable, so he tanks. All the DPS players want Paingiver. The healer had BETTER not be outhealed by potions and lifesteal, and should have Field Medic. Tiamat? Tiamat tracks 'score', rather arbitrarily as best I can tell. I have placed 1-4 as a Temptation warlock and a 10k GS, even in instances where literally every other player was probably double my GS and DEFINITELY double my DPS. That.. Is not an accurate metric. So, STAGE ONE.
Tiamat needs its own score tracking, deobfuscated. It needs to represent EVERYTHING that helps the raid. My propositions are that the following affect score: Crowd Controlling (CCing) mobs (only during the cleric phase), REVIVING allies, GRABBING (large point boost) and USING (further, moderate boost) dragon souls, and DAMAGE INVOLVEMENT (meaning damage dealt is not tracked, but simply dealing damage to the boss in a given 'tick' awards points.)
Now, this alone can build player investment. If being number one on the leaderboard at the end MEANS something, players will obviously strive for it. The best players will end up put on a pedestal and the ones still learning will (a) hopefully try harder to 'catch up' and (b) know to take that player's advice seriously. Of course, that alone won't help defeatist players, and definitely won't do anything about the LAZY ones. So, STAGE TWO.
Tier the rewards by that new scoring system. Players with less than half/a quarter of the 'average' score? No rewards whatsoever. They didn't earn them, and it takes some serious dickery to sit out 3/4 of the fight or more. If a player comes in considerably below the average, but not THAT low (didn't grab a gem, didn't CC mobs, AFK'd briefly, etc.), drop them a t1 reward- hoard coin sack or comparable. No enchant shard. No Linu's favor if they win anyway. That person was likely carried. JUST THESE CHANGES would reform and/or weed out the lazy ones and a chunk of the AFKs.
Beyond this, score really shouldn't have an effect, because any scoring system can obviously be 'gamed'. Instead, drastically lower the chance of a t1 reward for those players with an average score, leaving it far more likely that active participants will get a nicer payout. Thus, even if the raid FAILS, players are encouraged to keep trying til' the bitter end, even after a rocky start.
Another huge problem? Total zerg wipes because nobody has/uses the dragon souls! Certain players will just camp Severin until the summoners are down, not bothering with a gem.
Lastly, the clerics. It feels like noone understands how CC works, even those 20k freemium GS purchasers. (Though anyone who did the grind and delving for their GS probably does.)
The big picture? A lack of effort and coordination in most instances of the raid! Understandably, it's very difficult to coordinate 25 people.. But with some tweaking, it'd be less necessary. Allow me to explain!
Most people give the average Dungeon Delve 100% effort for their respective leaderboard cap. The tank wants Immovable, so he tanks. All the DPS players want Paingiver. The healer had BETTER not be outhealed by potions and lifesteal, and should have Field Medic. Tiamat? Tiamat tracks 'score', rather arbitrarily as best I can tell. I have placed 1-4 as a Temptation warlock and a 10k GS, even in instances where literally every other player was probably double my GS and DEFINITELY double my DPS. That.. Is not an accurate metric. So, STAGE ONE.
Tiamat needs its own score tracking, deobfuscated. It needs to represent EVERYTHING that helps the raid. My propositions are that the following affect score: Crowd Controlling (CCing) mobs (only during the cleric phase), REVIVING allies, GRABBING (large point boost) and USING (further, moderate boost) dragon souls, and DAMAGE INVOLVEMENT (meaning damage dealt is not tracked, but simply dealing damage to the boss in a given 'tick' awards points.)
Now, this alone can build player investment. If being number one on the leaderboard at the end MEANS something, players will obviously strive for it. The best players will end up put on a pedestal and the ones still learning will (a) hopefully try harder to 'catch up' and (b) know to take that player's advice seriously. Of course, that alone won't help defeatist players, and definitely won't do anything about the LAZY ones. So, STAGE TWO.
Tier the rewards by that new scoring system. Players with less than half/a quarter of the 'average' score? No rewards whatsoever. They didn't earn them, and it takes some serious dickery to sit out 3/4 of the fight or more. If a player comes in considerably below the average, but not THAT low (didn't grab a gem, didn't CC mobs, AFK'd briefly, etc.), drop them a t1 reward- hoard coin sack or comparable. No enchant shard. No Linu's favor if they win anyway. That person was likely carried. JUST THESE CHANGES would reform and/or weed out the lazy ones and a chunk of the AFKs.
Beyond this, score really shouldn't have an effect, because any scoring system can obviously be 'gamed'. Instead, drastically lower the chance of a t1 reward for those players with an average score, leaving it far more likely that active participants will get a nicer payout. Thus, even if the raid FAILS, players are encouraged to keep trying til' the bitter end, even after a rocky start.
A <Friendly Dragon>!
Post edited by arakk00 on
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Pretty much this. I too run in legit, and I rarely see afk'ers. You have a bad solution in search of a problem OP.
And what we're saying is from our experience that is an extremely rare occurrence. I honestly don't think I've seen that happen before. I have seen most the group give up after the full group failed to get the black head down in one phase on a zerg run, but I don't think I've ever seen this most the raid afk's situation outside of bugs and extremely failed runs.
Some people Im not even sure pay close enough attention to anything before declaring/accusing. Saw it couple days ago. Entire raid gives it all, we barely miss completeing it. After the 3rd round with like 1 min left (so no time to defend clerics and take heads down), most went to fire to sit for that minute, and ofc you got people clamoring people were AFK in the instance. All I could do is facepalm. (I watched very closely that instance for some odd reason, I think cause it wasnt legit and wanted to see what people were doing; everyone tried till the end, but still people declaring people afk, sigh)
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I'm not sure I totally agree with the proposed system, but I think that if you do not deal damage for a certain amount of time...1-2 minutes you should not be given any rewards and have a ban from Tiamat for then next 2 instances at least.
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Exactly, all they need to do is remove the excellent reward that failure gives.
That will solve so many problems since the people that are the cause of failure (botters + low GS freeloaders) will not waste their time going in just for that. It will give people more incentive to try harder, in both learning the fight, and gearing up so they will not waste time failing in the future.
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The solution would be qued instances. They said, that they wanted to implement them. They did not, claiming some positive group effects as reason for continuing this failing system. Later someone said, that they just could not do it.
Second best option would be the removement of rewards for failed instances and/ or GS limit, IMO.
Almost every poster in this thread has glossed over THIS, which is the central part of this post. What is this blob of text, you ask? Go ahead. Read it. The proposition includes metrics that all players with basic knowledge of the raid will fulfill. INCLUDING low-gs 'leeches' who are perfectly capable of healing, CC, taunting, kiting, and using dragon souls. With a system like this in place, everyone would be required to contribute.
There you go. And as for you complaining about how the system would be gamed- again, did you 'TL;DR' the OP? The proposition of reward tiering clearly states that the best rewards would go to those who came in around the average (by which I meant mean) 'contribution score'. It exclusively means better rewards for people trying, less rewards for the lazy and the ones who don't know the raid (prompting "Help! I keep getting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rewards on tiamat!"), and no rewards for people handicapping a 25-man raid with a numbers disadvantage.
As for anyone (if applicable) who DID read the OP and commented with a warped viewpoint because you don't wanna let go of the 'it's never my fault, it's the 10k GS, and I should be allowed to AFK' standpoint... Shame on you.
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That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the rewards already ARE tiered without an acknowledgement of such from the devs. Either that or RNGJesus just really likes my SW. I've run all of my toons through Tia enough to get the artifact OH now and only that warlock also managed to get his full Draconic Templar set just as drops from Tia along with it. Most of the others didn't even get a single piece of that set before getting the OH. I think I got 3 helms before I even got the OH with the warlock and completed the set before then too. And like I said, he was usually number 1 on that chart at the end, I assume because of the massive combined heals and damage.
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