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Rework Armor penetration
burkaanc
Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
one of problems that allowed ppl to reach insane damage is the way armor penetration works allowing damage resistance to go in negatives, with stacking debuffs and ArP stat. that was also the reason life steal was too strong - there was too much damage
either remove it or make it work differently like 50% damage resistance gets debuffed by 20% = 40%, then next 20% reduce it to 32, next 20% to 25.6 instead of flat reduction making it 50-20-20-20=-10%
atm on live monsters have max 24% DR and you need 24% to ignore it, with these changes it would be reduced to 18.24
that would reduce the difference of damage dealt and player health making existing life steal more reasonable. 10% at 300k skill damage was more than full heal, if armor pen was different the damage would be much smaller and the heal would be smaller as well
the amount of arp in mod6 will make tank classes trash in pvp since their main defense - damage resistance will be ignored by everybody, with these changes the armor would still be good, and it would help the problem with players dealing too much damage
as alternative increase base deflect chance, add deflect to monsters and make ArP reduce targets deflect chance -would still be valuable stat, but not as strong
this(dr option not deflect one) could allow more options in monster design - you could make heavily armored monsters with smth like 90% damage resistance making players use different strategies - like dungeons with low armored monsters could be life steal tanked, might even prefer sentinel tanks, while armored ones would require healers/tanks or kiting since life steal wouldnt provide enough healing
and in the end it would reduce how much player damage can ramp up, atm ppl can probably go over 5~10x their damage with all the DR debuffs
either remove it or make it work differently like 50% damage resistance gets debuffed by 20% = 40%, then next 20% reduce it to 32, next 20% to 25.6 instead of flat reduction making it 50-20-20-20=-10%
atm on live monsters have max 24% DR and you need 24% to ignore it, with these changes it would be reduced to 18.24
that would reduce the difference of damage dealt and player health making existing life steal more reasonable. 10% at 300k skill damage was more than full heal, if armor pen was different the damage would be much smaller and the heal would be smaller as well
the amount of arp in mod6 will make tank classes trash in pvp since their main defense - damage resistance will be ignored by everybody, with these changes the armor would still be good, and it would help the problem with players dealing too much damage
as alternative increase base deflect chance, add deflect to monsters and make ArP reduce targets deflect chance -would still be valuable stat, but not as strong
this(dr option not deflect one) could allow more options in monster design - you could make heavily armored monsters with smth like 90% damage resistance making players use different strategies - like dungeons with low armored monsters could be life steal tanked, might even prefer sentinel tanks, while armored ones would require healers/tanks or kiting since life steal wouldnt provide enough healing
and in the end it would reduce how much player damage can ramp up, atm ppl can probably go over 5~10x their damage with all the DR debuffs
Paladin Master Race
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If ArP dint got buffed, players cant even kill mobs due to higher damage resistence and player lack of power bonus.
armor pen stat itself didnt, it just allowed to ignore all DR, but debuffs did take it in negatives
To get some order in it you need to separate the damage into at least magical and physical damage and likely add elemental and poison damage to it.
If you separate the magical and physical damage you can build up defences differently and the need for something that fits all damage is gone.
Unless you separate magical from physical damage and give mobs more resist that tanks (or at the very least pretty much the same) players are going to build up enough arpen to negate all defence a player can muster making tanks walking paper dolls.
And with range having more damage more ccs more avoidence and about same hp/defence its going to be the world of range/casters all over with tanks being fish in a barrel..
my unstopable is ignored 100% all the time because of RI % smart ***, you have 4 dodges ITC , CW shield and other stuff, but what the GWF has? not even a fox.
the only thing is they need to ADD ARMOR PEN RESILIANCE for TENACITY .
Against players RI ignored DR directly and Defence debuffs reduced the Defence stat. Neither could be taken negative.
Against Mobs - who don't have a Defence stat - RI ignored DR directly and Defence debuffs were converted into a damage bonus. Again, nothing was taken negative.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
and what is the opposite of damage resistance ?
Again one guy, that seem to be intelligent, but struggle with one of the easiest elements of gamemechanics. Every Debuff have a fix value, even when the text itself state somethin different. -% Defense is in every case the same -x% DR. Independent if it hit a mob, boss, player with y% DR or player with z% DR. But instead of testing, which I have done for example, over and over the same false phrases are spread out.
HOW can numbers with over 100k+ Damage happen, when the defense stat are heavy under Diminishing Returns, which would make even -10,000% of the defense stat less hardcore as a plain -x% DR? With 5.3k Defense I'm at ~40% DR with it. Going up by +400 make a difference of uh yeah 0.5% DR. But how a base hit of 10k can achieve, even if it would be a crit, then 100k+? When the solostat defense can't be reach in ANY case 100% DR?
This is one of the problems with defense.
a) It need a very high value to reach a high value
b) It's bypassed due many debuffs, which reduce it direct
c) Arpen is much higher rated.
If we compare the situation on PTS: With my current stand, I would need 16k! defense stat to achieve the same DR as I now have @lvl 60. And how many Arpen(one off stat) would need one to negate it? Only 4k or even less! Then any debuff isn't considered.
Even the above mentioned rework isn't good. with 50% ignored, I would drop to 20% while one with 10%! would have 5% at the end. A difference of 15% for 30% difference. I would either say, that the Arpenvalue need to be lower than the defvalue to be a fair off vs. defstat comparison. Else this stat make any other(power, crit, recovery) extrem more powerful without needing a high 'waste' in arpen.
If a player has 30% DR and you have 30% RI, all your DR debuffs will increase the damage the target receives, which will result in basically turning their DR into negative.
Are you sure? Some mention, that they had very high RI values with only a bit more Arpen as @lvl 60.
A screenshot would help.
Any OTHER effects that decrease defense or DR besides armor penetration grants instead a damage bonus against the target after ARP negates all Damage resist. ex: Terror and Plaguefire enchants.
BTW there is a difference between a defence debuff and a debuff that flat increases damage taken. You may be confusing these.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Sorry dude, but you have no clue. -45% defense value is less than -15% DR applied. With 5.2k reduced to 2.8k def is more as 30% vs. 40% from the begin. Second: the damage values wouldn't reach 3x of the base, if it wouldn't be -200% DR. So how you will explain this? Because the defvalue, can never ever reach 100%. Regardless in the positive or negative manner.
In PvE different formulae apply because there is no Defence stat to be reduced by all those 'reduces defence by x%' debuffs. Instead, those debuffs are converted into damage buffs. But not - and here's the important bit - by driving DR negative. In fact DR always applies against debuff bonuses even if you have more RI than the mob has DR. And finally - stacking ArP to drive RI way above the max DR of a mob will not increase damage.
If you want to show me some ACT parses of what you claim is happening then I'd be wiling to look at it again. But every test I've ever done and every parse I've ever seen holds with what I've described. Kaelac has a really good guide on all this that was correct up through Mod 4 at least and AFAIK nothing was changed in Mod 5.
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac%E2%80%99s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/#2
And BTW - no need to get aggressive about this.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
The main question here is, did u test this on Mod6 instead of posting obsolete values found on an old Mod? The test server has reworked basically everything, so it would be nice if u can provide accurate data for what is being tested rigth now instead of sticking to old formulas.
Nope. What you say is simply false. With 0 Arpen and no other RI source, you would get reduced by full DR if your debuffs 'works' like you decribed.
If you want to show me some evidence that it works differently then I'm happy to take a look at it. At the moment all you've come up with is 'it doesn't work that way because I say so' which is kinda hard to discuss sensibly.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder