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doriangreigh
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 707 Arc User
This is all my opinion on how I see things.
I've seen a lot of comments in a various areas and figured I would throw some thoughts into one thread maybe in the hopes that some sort of rational eyes from the powers that be might view them.
There are comments on AD being a bit too high in the end game and constant referrals on how to make AD in the game. Let me say that from the casual player perspective (that is players that play the maybe 1 - 2 hours a day WITHOUT BOTTING and the healthy amount of time and proper breaks) the AD to get anywhere is pretty steep. I have less an issue with boons as those are not quite as bad but things like the profession task to improve your gear rather nominally (in fact the improvement is nearly non-existant) is a dragon egg which most likely will be bought of AH (or if lucky won from Tiamat) + 50 AD for the higher tier ones. 50k is a bit much for that pitiful excuse of improvement and with the coming MOD its looking like they won't even be a drop in the bucket for what you would need to actually improve your character. the amount of AD you can refine without selling on the AH is 24k/day and I'm certain most casual players don't even max that out and don't even play the content that would allow it. You can always do Skirmish hours but frankly those are not on when everyone is playing so its very likely you could play and never see those times due to your own personal schedule. Having said that i'm certain VERY few people tailor their life schedule around the neverwinter schedule.
To experience all content in this game in its fullest you have to have a LOT of AD. You can be very minimalist but this game is EXTREMELY elitist now so if you aren't investing in your character its getting harder and harder to get with groups running content that could be of use. This doesn't even take into account the return (or so it seems to me) of people that are doing the ninja loot option now. To be honest much of the game is probably best enjoyed with nothing higher than R7 enchants and anything else is a luxury item. So OK lets say you don't use any of that keeping your costs more reasonable for long term play. Then there is the issue of buying a mount or upgrading one. So if you are a casual player that just plays 1 toon its currently 600k to upgrade a mount to R2 then another 1.4 million to get to R3. If you pick up your starting companion in order to get that companion up to purple to even remotely sustain use you have to spend something like 1.625 million AD. In total with just keeping 1 character end game ready you have to somehow earn 3.625 million AD for 1 character. Odds are that poor person isn't going to do every single AD earning task (PVP is now way to time consuming) but even if they did that 24k/ day that is about 151 days of playing just do get that. Casusal players aren't going to play 151 consecutive days so lets say 3 days a week that is about 50 weeks of playing to get enough AD to level a companion to purple and get a mount to R3. First off you will have hit level 60 5 times over in that time frame so the frustration of being level 60 the vast majority of that time with a worthless companion and a mount you can't even ride past 3 mobs on is probably going to net you a loss of 1 player.
From what I can tell in the new MOD 6 that mount training is going back up to 1.2 million for a R2 training and 2+million for R3 so that is going to be even worse on someone who doesn't want to buy a mount from the zen store.
For those that like to suggest leadership ... you level fast and that will level you faster, the AD gain is ok in the beginning but takes forever before you get to 20 where it might help make it easier to hit your 24k/day refining cap. Even if you never bought additional character slots two toons doing leadership is not only boring and time consuming it is also not enough to really make a huge difference, you would need lots of toons cranking out leadership and that by itself is a time investment.
Sure you can break down and spend some money and buy a mount, of all things you can probably get a mount on sale for less than $20 or in that price point. OK so you just saved yourself a couple million AD by avoiding ranking up a mount ... at that rate why is that even in the game? Just remove training manuals and make people buy them from zen store or just flat out only sell mounts in the zen store. Ideally you would just put them in game as drops from bosses but obviously that isn't going to work with the working business model so instead a slightly misleading view of having "free" in the game but worthless free is still worthless.
IF you manage to actually run dungeons you can use seals to quickly out pace your 24k/day cap but again if a player is playing 1 - 2 hours a day a few days a week you are most likely experience a variety of content and not just doing the same thing (aside from maybe now that tiamat well of dragon business).
Selling loot (if you can win it) on AH is really the only way to get AD in this game to advance you noticeably. But all that is doing is encouraging new players to NOT learn to play and just buy their stuff probably from just selling zen to quickly get AD which then pollutes the pool of players with people that don't know what they are doing despite their gear ... or its robbing hard working players who have BAD RNG luck who resort to having to buy stuff because groups for getting content without paying AD for it is not easy and the few people running around playing day in and day out who have 4 friends to play with who can just run content and farm stuff to sell get richer while the poor common players can't get anywhere and give up playing all together.
Going to the AH I think sucks. Honestly my belief is the intended use of AH was meant so that players that got things they already had could exchange them for things they didn't ... or for those who apparently just were overly lucky with various RNG results could effectively exchange those for things they couldn't get RNG favored on.
This brings me to the NEED / GREED options. In my above theory, the need option is there for people that can use the item ... if they already have it then they could then sell it to someone that couldn't get lucky to get it. But then comes the frequent dungeon runners that probably have fat wallets who like to complain that EVERYONE should have a shot at the roll just because ... well let me first say I don't disagree ... but let me also point out that something drops for every class at some point so if your class doesn't drop this run then you run again and need on the item you can ... all need does is narrow down the RNG from 5 or something less even 1 if that one class is there. Since there are in fact classes that don't get played much why should that class have to share its drop with other classes that are more common? IF a GF MH weapon drops and few people play a GF shouldn't the people that actually play be rewarded with the opportunity to get a potential profit? As the game stands with its elite they want all the potential for loot so the money can stay in certain circles and keep top end players rich in AD to keep feeding their overpowered toons.
Now on the flip side of things a dungeon is a cooperative effort so yeah a school thought is everyone should have a shot ... but since there is a need or greed option there is TOO much in the way of people just waiting to see all the greed rolls then rolling need (which also then leads to speedy vote kicking and other forum posts complaining about that).
So essentially if this game is all about everyone having a shot at picking something up and tough luck to anyone who can actually use it whether or not they have the item or not, then why do we even have a need option? IS it that hard to just disable the need button and just make it roll or pass? Something tells me this will solve a lot of griefing in the game not to mention a number of forum posts and complaints if you just flat out remove the "need" button and just create roll or pass. Players are INCAPABLE of moderation and really when it comes down to it ... ALL players are greedy so lets just stop with the pretense of civilized play and just call it for what it is .... everyone wants the item because it can be sold and NO ONE gives a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if a player needs to upgrade their gear, its BoE and thus means it is to be sold.
The alternative to this which would make so many people post rants and flames its not even funny, but make every single purple item in this game BoP. I suspect the richest AD people are the ones that would complain the most. IF you want to talk fair that is the best way to go ... you either use the item or you salvage it ... if you want to make money off AH you sell crafting mats and unique gear pieces for appearance changes.
For the record i'll note that I have played casually and recently in the past couple of months have been playing several hours a day and I have to say I do find it troubling at how much time is spent trying to farm AD or spent clicking buttons to refine stuff. I do find the AD costs rather troubling in this game in particular to getting your enchants into the R8 and above brackets. I'd like to upgrade my companion but it seems more useful to upgrade enchants and I find myself hoarding my AD until I can buy greater marks of potency (RNG from dungeon drops pretty much never favors and they don't seem to drop that often). Do I want to change my appearance to something more appealing? ummm I wish I could but really I can't because the money spent doing that could upgrade a R6 enchant to 7 and get me on my way to making a R8.
It takes so long to make money that this game feels like a job not a recreation. I'd rather run dungeons repeatedly than try to farm AD, many people make they point they want to play and enjoy the game NOT be forced to do things they don't want to do to get things that would make the game enjoyable.
On the refining note ... the new mod has a nice change in the R11-12 category however why not pass that down to the R7 - 11 categories? It still takes a lot of effort and easing that burden of using up 2 R7's just to get a few extra points does seem excessive to say the least. Having two R7 is better than having a single R8 and even at that the points gained most likely won't even increase anything at all unless its a radiant and you get a definate benefit from increased HP. At that rate why bother have any other enchant just use radiants and be done with the rest. Pretty much everyone in the game is all about HP and or Power anyway. Unless you come out with a new enchant that does Regen.
Getting my enchants to 8 was a chore and i've been playing for over a year now. Most of what I have accomplished ulimately came from lock boxes either using the contents for refining or selling on AH, i'd probably still be working up the AD to buy marks. In retro spect i'd been better off taking the money spent on the lock box and selling the zen for straight AD, think I would have actually come out a ahead or near even if you take into consideration the refining.
I think overall my point is the game is a job when it comes to earning AD to improve yourself. Other players make it difficult to run content to get things for free and most of the things you need in the end game don't even drop often enough to make them viable you have to use AH or zen (I'm talking potencies and coalwards here). And with no increase in AD refining cap the new MOD looks even more daunting when it comes to AD costs.
This game also feels more like a click and drag facebook game with the timers in professions (adding a queue would be super helpful here) and the fact you spend so much time interacting with refining interfaces. Just to put refining into perspective ... I spent litterally 2 days and about 20 copied toons to refine my gear up orange and get R9 and 10 enchants. Most of that time was spent clicking and dragging in the refining window ... the refining in this game is ridiculous ... you don't play this game you spend hours staring at a refining window. Who in the right mind thinks that is fun and who in their right mind considers that "playing a game" ????
I hope there is more "re-working" in the refining coming our way because right now its still overly burdensome to refine ... more time is spent refining than playing a game and that is just wrong and irresponsible on the game design.
*edit*
A note on the zen exchange, how about just flat locking it at a certain rate, the 500:1 seems to be about what the zen store and in-game AD items want it to be it so why not just flat out make zen exchanged at 500:1 and leave it at that.
I've seen a lot of comments in a various areas and figured I would throw some thoughts into one thread maybe in the hopes that some sort of rational eyes from the powers that be might view them.
There are comments on AD being a bit too high in the end game and constant referrals on how to make AD in the game. Let me say that from the casual player perspective (that is players that play the maybe 1 - 2 hours a day WITHOUT BOTTING and the healthy amount of time and proper breaks) the AD to get anywhere is pretty steep. I have less an issue with boons as those are not quite as bad but things like the profession task to improve your gear rather nominally (in fact the improvement is nearly non-existant) is a dragon egg which most likely will be bought of AH (or if lucky won from Tiamat) + 50 AD for the higher tier ones. 50k is a bit much for that pitiful excuse of improvement and with the coming MOD its looking like they won't even be a drop in the bucket for what you would need to actually improve your character. the amount of AD you can refine without selling on the AH is 24k/day and I'm certain most casual players don't even max that out and don't even play the content that would allow it. You can always do Skirmish hours but frankly those are not on when everyone is playing so its very likely you could play and never see those times due to your own personal schedule. Having said that i'm certain VERY few people tailor their life schedule around the neverwinter schedule.
To experience all content in this game in its fullest you have to have a LOT of AD. You can be very minimalist but this game is EXTREMELY elitist now so if you aren't investing in your character its getting harder and harder to get with groups running content that could be of use. This doesn't even take into account the return (or so it seems to me) of people that are doing the ninja loot option now. To be honest much of the game is probably best enjoyed with nothing higher than R7 enchants and anything else is a luxury item. So OK lets say you don't use any of that keeping your costs more reasonable for long term play. Then there is the issue of buying a mount or upgrading one. So if you are a casual player that just plays 1 toon its currently 600k to upgrade a mount to R2 then another 1.4 million to get to R3. If you pick up your starting companion in order to get that companion up to purple to even remotely sustain use you have to spend something like 1.625 million AD. In total with just keeping 1 character end game ready you have to somehow earn 3.625 million AD for 1 character. Odds are that poor person isn't going to do every single AD earning task (PVP is now way to time consuming) but even if they did that 24k/ day that is about 151 days of playing just do get that. Casusal players aren't going to play 151 consecutive days so lets say 3 days a week that is about 50 weeks of playing to get enough AD to level a companion to purple and get a mount to R3. First off you will have hit level 60 5 times over in that time frame so the frustration of being level 60 the vast majority of that time with a worthless companion and a mount you can't even ride past 3 mobs on is probably going to net you a loss of 1 player.
From what I can tell in the new MOD 6 that mount training is going back up to 1.2 million for a R2 training and 2+million for R3 so that is going to be even worse on someone who doesn't want to buy a mount from the zen store.
For those that like to suggest leadership ... you level fast and that will level you faster, the AD gain is ok in the beginning but takes forever before you get to 20 where it might help make it easier to hit your 24k/day refining cap. Even if you never bought additional character slots two toons doing leadership is not only boring and time consuming it is also not enough to really make a huge difference, you would need lots of toons cranking out leadership and that by itself is a time investment.
Sure you can break down and spend some money and buy a mount, of all things you can probably get a mount on sale for less than $20 or in that price point. OK so you just saved yourself a couple million AD by avoiding ranking up a mount ... at that rate why is that even in the game? Just remove training manuals and make people buy them from zen store or just flat out only sell mounts in the zen store. Ideally you would just put them in game as drops from bosses but obviously that isn't going to work with the working business model so instead a slightly misleading view of having "free" in the game but worthless free is still worthless.
IF you manage to actually run dungeons you can use seals to quickly out pace your 24k/day cap but again if a player is playing 1 - 2 hours a day a few days a week you are most likely experience a variety of content and not just doing the same thing (aside from maybe now that tiamat well of dragon business).
Selling loot (if you can win it) on AH is really the only way to get AD in this game to advance you noticeably. But all that is doing is encouraging new players to NOT learn to play and just buy their stuff probably from just selling zen to quickly get AD which then pollutes the pool of players with people that don't know what they are doing despite their gear ... or its robbing hard working players who have BAD RNG luck who resort to having to buy stuff because groups for getting content without paying AD for it is not easy and the few people running around playing day in and day out who have 4 friends to play with who can just run content and farm stuff to sell get richer while the poor common players can't get anywhere and give up playing all together.
Going to the AH I think sucks. Honestly my belief is the intended use of AH was meant so that players that got things they already had could exchange them for things they didn't ... or for those who apparently just were overly lucky with various RNG results could effectively exchange those for things they couldn't get RNG favored on.
This brings me to the NEED / GREED options. In my above theory, the need option is there for people that can use the item ... if they already have it then they could then sell it to someone that couldn't get lucky to get it. But then comes the frequent dungeon runners that probably have fat wallets who like to complain that EVERYONE should have a shot at the roll just because ... well let me first say I don't disagree ... but let me also point out that something drops for every class at some point so if your class doesn't drop this run then you run again and need on the item you can ... all need does is narrow down the RNG from 5 or something less even 1 if that one class is there. Since there are in fact classes that don't get played much why should that class have to share its drop with other classes that are more common? IF a GF MH weapon drops and few people play a GF shouldn't the people that actually play be rewarded with the opportunity to get a potential profit? As the game stands with its elite they want all the potential for loot so the money can stay in certain circles and keep top end players rich in AD to keep feeding their overpowered toons.
Now on the flip side of things a dungeon is a cooperative effort so yeah a school thought is everyone should have a shot ... but since there is a need or greed option there is TOO much in the way of people just waiting to see all the greed rolls then rolling need (which also then leads to speedy vote kicking and other forum posts complaining about that).
So essentially if this game is all about everyone having a shot at picking something up and tough luck to anyone who can actually use it whether or not they have the item or not, then why do we even have a need option? IS it that hard to just disable the need button and just make it roll or pass? Something tells me this will solve a lot of griefing in the game not to mention a number of forum posts and complaints if you just flat out remove the "need" button and just create roll or pass. Players are INCAPABLE of moderation and really when it comes down to it ... ALL players are greedy so lets just stop with the pretense of civilized play and just call it for what it is .... everyone wants the item because it can be sold and NO ONE gives a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if a player needs to upgrade their gear, its BoE and thus means it is to be sold.
The alternative to this which would make so many people post rants and flames its not even funny, but make every single purple item in this game BoP. I suspect the richest AD people are the ones that would complain the most. IF you want to talk fair that is the best way to go ... you either use the item or you salvage it ... if you want to make money off AH you sell crafting mats and unique gear pieces for appearance changes.
For the record i'll note that I have played casually and recently in the past couple of months have been playing several hours a day and I have to say I do find it troubling at how much time is spent trying to farm AD or spent clicking buttons to refine stuff. I do find the AD costs rather troubling in this game in particular to getting your enchants into the R8 and above brackets. I'd like to upgrade my companion but it seems more useful to upgrade enchants and I find myself hoarding my AD until I can buy greater marks of potency (RNG from dungeon drops pretty much never favors and they don't seem to drop that often). Do I want to change my appearance to something more appealing? ummm I wish I could but really I can't because the money spent doing that could upgrade a R6 enchant to 7 and get me on my way to making a R8.
It takes so long to make money that this game feels like a job not a recreation. I'd rather run dungeons repeatedly than try to farm AD, many people make they point they want to play and enjoy the game NOT be forced to do things they don't want to do to get things that would make the game enjoyable.
On the refining note ... the new mod has a nice change in the R11-12 category however why not pass that down to the R7 - 11 categories? It still takes a lot of effort and easing that burden of using up 2 R7's just to get a few extra points does seem excessive to say the least. Having two R7 is better than having a single R8 and even at that the points gained most likely won't even increase anything at all unless its a radiant and you get a definate benefit from increased HP. At that rate why bother have any other enchant just use radiants and be done with the rest. Pretty much everyone in the game is all about HP and or Power anyway. Unless you come out with a new enchant that does Regen.
Getting my enchants to 8 was a chore and i've been playing for over a year now. Most of what I have accomplished ulimately came from lock boxes either using the contents for refining or selling on AH, i'd probably still be working up the AD to buy marks. In retro spect i'd been better off taking the money spent on the lock box and selling the zen for straight AD, think I would have actually come out a ahead or near even if you take into consideration the refining.
I think overall my point is the game is a job when it comes to earning AD to improve yourself. Other players make it difficult to run content to get things for free and most of the things you need in the end game don't even drop often enough to make them viable you have to use AH or zen (I'm talking potencies and coalwards here). And with no increase in AD refining cap the new MOD looks even more daunting when it comes to AD costs.
This game also feels more like a click and drag facebook game with the timers in professions (adding a queue would be super helpful here) and the fact you spend so much time interacting with refining interfaces. Just to put refining into perspective ... I spent litterally 2 days and about 20 copied toons to refine my gear up orange and get R9 and 10 enchants. Most of that time was spent clicking and dragging in the refining window ... the refining in this game is ridiculous ... you don't play this game you spend hours staring at a refining window. Who in the right mind thinks that is fun and who in their right mind considers that "playing a game" ????
I hope there is more "re-working" in the refining coming our way because right now its still overly burdensome to refine ... more time is spent refining than playing a game and that is just wrong and irresponsible on the game design.
*edit*
A note on the zen exchange, how about just flat locking it at a certain rate, the 500:1 seems to be about what the zen store and in-game AD items want it to be it so why not just flat out make zen exchanged at 500:1 and leave it at that.
Post edited by doriangreigh on
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I used to refine my own enchantments, but it was unprofitable. Looking at the auction house today, for instance, I saw rank 7 darks going for 80,000 AD. That's barely more than the cost of the 3 marks of potency needed to craft a rank 7 from scratch, and doesn't take into account the value of the RP or the preservation wards you would presumably use to make one.
Now the only time I refine enchantments is if I get a coalescent ward from the weekly invocation jackpot.
You've officially just put more thought into this game than the people who actually made it.
The game is spending your money to play the refinement mini-game. Somehow they have tricked people into paying to work...and yes it is work when you are not enjoying it and of every 70 gaming hours are spending 40 doing something to make the 30 remaining hours somehow rewarding.
...
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The one thing I take issue with is the need/greed. For one, I agree that they should do away with the option entirely and find a new way to do it. Personal drops would be great. Like how other recent games do it.
However, as has been stated many times, if you need on an item that others can not need on, that is being selfish, since the main reason to do dungeon runs is to get something worth selling. Most of what you get on a dungeon run is not what you will actually USE. It's not like greater ring of cleaving drops in all dungeons. However, a set piece WILL drop. Thing is, though, that set piece also will drop just for you in that dungeon chest. So if you need on the thing you will get eventually anyway, you are being greedy and worthy of a kick. I made this mistake early on. It was explained to me. And it makes perfect sense.
but they should fix it, because it is obviously a needless problem.
Especially premod 5 when gear was worth much more, do you honestly believe that a single soul that needed on gear was doing so to wear it? I don't.
Well I think it was this thread I've said that guild runs etc can be a different story. Most of this has to do with pugging, and I include channel runs in that. Honestly if someone needs in a pug, I don't buy that they were going to wear it, ever. Maybe I'm more cynical, but that's the way I see it, especially pre-mod 5.