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Aren't Trickster rogues just too much in pvp?
hivangrosny
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
I'll post this again into a more suitable form and in the right section of the forum, hoping to receive an answer. 
A rogue's got many weapons: stealth, Impossible to catch (you can do nothing but run and kite, IF not already stunned), smoke bomb (AOE stun; a rogue can run away from 20 players with this and...->), high speed buffs. Finally, 1shot with lashing blade (incredible burst). Not only that, a rogue can even perma stun you with the right build.
A single rogue, even with an average gs, can often own an entire group. In Icewind dale's maps, he can run away from you and quaff pve potions, come back and 1shot one of you, then run away again... you can't stun him because he's got "impossible to catch", you can't outrun him, you just have to leave the map.
Already a majority of players plays rogue in pvp. 5:10 players in Gauntlgrym are T.rogues. In my humble opinion, this redundancy isn't healthy for this beautiful game. Is it possible to do something about this? If not a nerf, can you at least give other classes some protection against rogues, like passive buffs against stuns or such? Is module 6 going to bring some changes?
THank you very much.
A rogue's got many weapons: stealth, Impossible to catch (you can do nothing but run and kite, IF not already stunned), smoke bomb (AOE stun; a rogue can run away from 20 players with this and...->), high speed buffs. Finally, 1shot with lashing blade (incredible burst). Not only that, a rogue can even perma stun you with the right build.
A single rogue, even with an average gs, can often own an entire group. In Icewind dale's maps, he can run away from you and quaff pve potions, come back and 1shot one of you, then run away again... you can't stun him because he's got "impossible to catch", you can't outrun him, you just have to leave the map.
Already a majority of players plays rogue in pvp. 5:10 players in Gauntlgrym are T.rogues. In my humble opinion, this redundancy isn't healthy for this beautiful game. Is it possible to do something about this? If not a nerf, can you at least give other classes some protection against rogues, like passive buffs against stuns or such? Is module 6 going to bring some changes?
THank you very much.
Post edited by hivangrosny on
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I completely agree with you. I'm not one of those, though. Before the changes, rogues were too weak, imo. I have a rogue too, by the way.
if things stay like they are TR 75% deflection and can go much higher in this case, there won´t be any other calsses in PVP left in mod 6 except TR´s, cause deflection seems to be the best solution to the nerfs,
so if this is going to happen i will definitly leave this ignorant game
maybe we can make a small guide for pvp players how to deal with the new rogue? yes we have more battlepower then any other class in PvP but i think the right set up and some advices can help to increase the fun for others.
AO's a TR himself. How else would he remain obscure from even the gods themselves?
There's no such thing as a "TR 75% deflection", sir.
With extreme cases (implying badly balanced and lop-sided, and therefore generally unsuitable for real PvP standards) the highest you'll see 48~50%. When people just give up real efficiency and build for just for the fun of it, you'll see it going 55% and a little bit higher.
In the usual case, with real PvP builds that needs to take into account the need for power and HP, a well-equipped, high-end scoundrel TR will stand at around 40~46%. Scoundrels themselves are only about 10~20% of PvP TRs, and the absolute majority of TRs, which are Executioners and Sabos, are usually somewhere between high 30's to the low 40's.
I think he/she means Deflect severity. Only rogue has Deflect severity 75%.
My ****16.5k**** TR has a base of 66.4% deflect - Add potion buffs - 70.4%
Don't mention the fact that I have a feat granting me 10% deflect for 10 sec after stealth activates (active all the time with Shadow Strike)
I think that's a whopping 80%....
Oh ya one more feat I almost forgot... Under 30% HP I gain Additonal 10% Deflect
I think I must be terrible at math but I do believe that would amount to 90.4% Deflection
(+10% For Under 30%HP + 10Sec 10% Buff + Potion Buff (Heroism+Fate)
Solondra@Killerwhale87
what i read is 75%-90% deflecetion severity not defelct itself, but all in all its best choice i assume in mod 6, deflect at 50%+deflect severtity+ dodging+ iTC + i don´t know, lot more
all other classes don´t have this capabiltiy, so if regen and lifesteal is toned down, what happens to classes that mitigate most damage? guess what,
they become more OP... lets wait and see, but all i read and hear points to this direction
...and what are your stats and HP?
[EDIT] I do have a good idea on how you get those stats, except that would probably mean your initial CON on character creation starts out with a 10 or a 11, and with 0 investments into the CON stat thereafter, leaving you only with maybe the 3% from feats, +6k from about five r10 rads, all armor kits into HP, and an extra 2k or something from artifacts for what, 32k HP max? .. and of course, possible only with a halfling.[/EDIT]
Dunno about your preference, but at the current level of power inflation in all classes I don't think any build with under 38k HP is a real 'pvp' build, although of course, that doesn't mean you cannot do well with it.
You'd have to make a lot of ill conceived sacrifices to achieve anywhere near that. Because of that, I'd have to question it's viability at any decent level.
I'd be interested to know what HP you're stacking and what equipment, because even if you deflect a hit, the 25% dmg that makes it through sounds likely to make you fold like a cheap blanket
According to my calculations, friend sabre, he's probably a halfling, MI, scoundrel build with maximum possible stat rolls into DEX/CHA from character creations, possibly through race reroll. I haven't checked what kind of dice rolls come out, but my guess is he probably rolled a 18 DEX and 16 CHA or something like that, and as a consequence having almost all the other stats between 10~11, including CON.
The math goes like this:
63.5%
This is a high enough figure for a chance-based mechanic to reach a certain level of stability to be expected to work as a primary form of defense. IMO the threshold is 60%. Other games show similar results where "dodge-tanks" weigh in at around 60~70% evasion/parry/deflection/whatever-that-game-calls-its-chance-based-defensive-mechanic.
Now, as said, with these figures, CON suffers really bad. Since all stat investment went int DEX/CHA, the only increase in CON comes from the natural +2 given with two instances of "+1 to all stats" during level up, so at most, at level 60 his CON is probably around 12~13. Even the belt goes to DEX, so with his gear my guess is his stat is at 29~30 DEX and 23~24 CHA, but no CON still way too low. With that con his initial HP is around 22~24k or something like that.
If he's one of the "maxed out every gear" players, even with jewelcrafting, then...
above results in around 13.7k HP increase by itself.
With the 3% HP increase from feats, plus a staggering amount of investment -- an amount impossible to reach without payment -- he'll probably be able to reach around 38k HP or higher.
Of course, payment isn't a bad thing. I pay for some stuff myself. A few bucks spent with a disciplined payment plan can go a lot. But the amount of money required to reach this level in gear is more than an occasional $50 worth purchase of zen every two~three months. The amount required for someone to have that much deflection AND still have enough HP to be competitive in the high-level PvP scene, its like I said, "staggering". I for one cannot afford that much to spend in a game.
I can bet both of my balls someone with that much equipment is maybe like 0.01% of the entire TR population. Us scoundrels are a noticeable minority within TRs, with the absolute majority being Execs and Sabos. And among such rarities, the chance to clandestinely meet a scoundrel TR that wields that much gear? Not terribly high.
At least, not high enough for people to come to the boards and complain TRs are running around with 80% deflection chance. Any normal world joe who wants to go max-deflection builds, is in all probabilty going to be walking around with 28~32k HP at most.
Like I posted just above, friend morenthar, it becomes logical if you can have THAT much gear. It's just that with my spending plan (or with any other normal players wallets, for that matter), it's not going to be logical within the next 3 years.
I think it'll become logical for me if I take up a investment portfolio and a good capital manager.
Pretty much the calculations that I arrived at. I believe that he was trying to make a point there. He just ended up making a different point to the one he intended
Dodges should cost more stamina while in combat.
Stealth attack reveal should have at least 15-20 second CD. Reveal lasts 0.5-1.5 seconds longer.
Stealth reveal radius should be increased from front of victim's view.
Combat advantage while in stealth 1st attack only. Increase base combat advantage for TR(more gain from charisma).
Concussive stuns should have CD increased to 10-15 seconds.
Shocking Exe should be non interrupt-able/cancel-able (by the TR himself) and gives full damage/control immunity.
Smoke bomb should have target cap 5-8, immediate un-daze when leaving AoE for players.
Agreed, friend sabre.
Although, these points, I view as seriously misleading because it is usually along the lines of "doing ~ just for the sake of ~ ". For example, our fighters could reach above 60k and into the 70's in therms of HP if they go a HP build, just for the purpose of having more HP.
A CW can go into a all-WIS build plus every possible gear invested into control bonus, to effectively nullify the resist figures and CC people for at least 30% longer duration than what you would normally expect in PvP.
PvE builds are prime examples of investment into power/damage, hence you see people with 20k+ GS with only 22~23k HP -- since with the current level of difficulties, npc mobs are hardly dangerous, even at the so-called 'epic' level challenges.
I'm sure he means well. But an extreme build like is considered extreme for a reason -- it requires an extreme investment into gear to make it work, lest you be running around with 60%+ deflection at something like 25k HP... in which case an incoming 20k attack is still 5k damage even if deflected.
Also, it seems to be becoming clear that mod6 is going to nerf TR defl.sev. down to 50% -, in line with other classes. This could prove to be a major negative impact to defl. oriented builds..
I've checked the halflinh diceroll today, and with a 18 DEX stat its almost always 13 CHA at 8 or 10 CON...so the HP would suffer even more than my initial estimates with a "maxed out 30 DEX" build.. not to mention most classes can' roll a 18 DEX in the first place.
Lets asume that Neverwinter is a group oriented game. Let us even asume that there are groups in pvp. And now let us think about classes in mod 6. Well, we have ... uh... 2 healers then.
You can bet all your money you have that we will have a lot more healers in battlegrounds. And regeneration will strenghen them. Its funny that everyone is allways just looking for one class, while pvp should allways be played as a group.
Yea, all the oneshooting, massive CC things should shot down to minimum. By simply adding a dimminishing return to CCs. By cutting the hard damage effects a bit.
At 20k+ most classes can nearly oneshot everyone under that gs. Really a cw is more annoying to my dc than a tr could ever be. No difference between theses classes at a certain gs.
PvP in a mmo will never be balanced, beginning with the gear, ending up in class mechanics. I believe when everyone would play more team orientated there wont be so much nerf this, nerf that threats. The team is the solution, not a single class.