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End game SW PvP needs some love
denvald
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
I've posted this earlier today not realizing there was a specific forum just for that. So here I'll post again.
Scourge Warlocks needs a bit of love in PvP
Ever wondered why there's never any SW on your team when you do domination?
Have you ever played a SW end game and wondered why everyone sees like you a free kill?
And no this is NOT another thread that goes like ''oh em gee im getting 1 hit by shocking execution NERF PLEASE!''
Then wonder no more, SW is underwhelming in pvp. In PvE SW are beast but here's a few things that could really do with improvement for PvP. I play a high GS end game warlock and here's my input on why and what would return some balance.
Temptation SW.
Soul Bonding: Your life steal now also heals allies for 125% of it's value.
So what's the problem here? In PvP there's healing depression, which means you get only 50% of your own life steal, while that isn't a bad thing in itself, it also means that your healing potential is halved, and since that same number is healing on others, it's halved again by their own healing depression
So you're getting a double hit by healing depression. That doesn't sound right. I understand clerics are good healers but they have abilities that restore x% of said person's life and much more overall healing potential in pvp. While all you do is raising life steal (which is halved let's remember) and give a bit of temp HP and roughly 1/4 of your life steal (assuming a high GS warlock can hit 20% LS, you actually heal your allies for 6%) 20k killing flame equates to roughly 1k hp healed. Way to go, that's even lower than the first hit of a DoT cleric heal. If at the very least Soul bonding wouldn't be affected by healing depression that would work out already 4 times better than in live. Currently, you could be running no spec tree in pvp or being temptation and the only apparent difference is eldritch momentum, which is 5% stamina restored on each damage hit taken. That's the only thing temptation will do for you in pvp right now.
Next up, Encouters and Casting times.
Most of the warlock spells are too slow casting, the biggest loser in that category being Harrowstorm at first place, then soul scorch, curse bite, Blades of vanquished armies, wraith shadow (the animation is fast but if you move or cancel with shift anytime before the spell moves to the target, it cancels and you didn't cast it, so if your target wasnt next to you when you casted and you moved after the animation was over, you didn't actually cast since the spell didn't reach the ennemy.) So all in all, warlocks get some very slow spells and the rest are medium-slow, there really is no fast casting warlock spell.
I could definitly see Curse bite being an instant cast spell. Harrowstorm casting 50% faster is already a big improvement, removing the wraith shadow component that you must wait for the small energy orb to hit your enemy to finish casting and instead make it in line with its casting animation, and slightly improving the casting speed of several spells such as soul scorch and blades of vanquished armies.
Warlock's bargain, this spell sacrifices HP for life steal, usually a good choice in PvE, since it's considered life steal in PvP you get half the benefits, and in reality when you use this spell you barely break even in terms how much hp restored/sacrificed with it, and that's if your opponent doesn't deflect/dodge/block it, in which case you pretty much take 5k of your HP and throw it in the garbage can. I get the idea of some spells are better for PvE and some for PvP but I think it could do with some improvements for PvP.
Vampiric embrace seems similar, I haven't run down the maths on this one but I assume it uses similar mechanics because the numbers you get from using it in pvp is depressing. (If you've actually done the maths on this one I'd appreciate it). And since it's double the amount healed as temp HP, this component of the spell is halved too.
Next on the list, Soulbinders
The speed at which you lose your soul sparks is overwhelming, you stop combat for a second and you're out, all your buffs and stacks are gone. As a Soulbinder's strength compared to a Hellbringer is the added survival, if you remove our stacks of soul sparks instantly as soon as combat ends that means that 95% of the time there's no benefit to not running an hellbringer in PvP.
What I suggest is the once combat ends, you lose soul sparks based of a rate of x per second. For example, if you managed to get all your sparks up in combat, once it ends you would lose 1 spark per seconds, or 1 spark per two seconds. That gives you 30seconds/1 minute to re enter combat before it's gone and you have to build up again. I don't mind the aspect of building stacks up, what I don't like is how fast you lose those stacks.
Or if anything, give Soulbinders the potential to reach 30 stacks quickly via daily uses or some other method. Like a wizard have feats to get instantly 5 stacks of arcane mastery when casting the lightning daily, I don't see why we couldn't get something similar too.
Those are some of my own ideas from playing SW endlessly in PvP, I think there's more improvements that could be made to Temptation warlocks further than what I've suggested but no ideas comes to mind that could work in PvP without <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up PvE balance, so if you got some input let me know.
EDIT: So i was reading that previously on the test server (before I started messing with it myself I guess) 1spark was actually equivalent to one bar of sparks aka 6 soul sparks. So When I look at snuff out, which is let's be honest lacking too much to even consider be put on my feats bar. Was Snuff out orginally designed to grant 6 sparks aka 1 bar of sparks? If yes, that would make the feat REALLY much more interesting...
Edit 2: I saw some guy posting an idea where he suggested that warlocks get invisible while shifting. I actually REALLY like this idea.
Thanks for reading.
Scourge Warlocks needs a bit of love in PvP
Ever wondered why there's never any SW on your team when you do domination?
Have you ever played a SW end game and wondered why everyone sees like you a free kill?
And no this is NOT another thread that goes like ''oh em gee im getting 1 hit by shocking execution NERF PLEASE!''
Then wonder no more, SW is underwhelming in pvp. In PvE SW are beast but here's a few things that could really do with improvement for PvP. I play a high GS end game warlock and here's my input on why and what would return some balance.
Temptation SW.
Soul Bonding: Your life steal now also heals allies for 125% of it's value.
So what's the problem here? In PvP there's healing depression, which means you get only 50% of your own life steal, while that isn't a bad thing in itself, it also means that your healing potential is halved, and since that same number is healing on others, it's halved again by their own healing depression
So you're getting a double hit by healing depression. That doesn't sound right. I understand clerics are good healers but they have abilities that restore x% of said person's life and much more overall healing potential in pvp. While all you do is raising life steal (which is halved let's remember) and give a bit of temp HP and roughly 1/4 of your life steal (assuming a high GS warlock can hit 20% LS, you actually heal your allies for 6%) 20k killing flame equates to roughly 1k hp healed. Way to go, that's even lower than the first hit of a DoT cleric heal. If at the very least Soul bonding wouldn't be affected by healing depression that would work out already 4 times better than in live. Currently, you could be running no spec tree in pvp or being temptation and the only apparent difference is eldritch momentum, which is 5% stamina restored on each damage hit taken. That's the only thing temptation will do for you in pvp right now.
Next up, Encouters and Casting times.
Most of the warlock spells are too slow casting, the biggest loser in that category being Harrowstorm at first place, then soul scorch, curse bite, Blades of vanquished armies, wraith shadow (the animation is fast but if you move or cancel with shift anytime before the spell moves to the target, it cancels and you didn't cast it, so if your target wasnt next to you when you casted and you moved after the animation was over, you didn't actually cast since the spell didn't reach the ennemy.) So all in all, warlocks get some very slow spells and the rest are medium-slow, there really is no fast casting warlock spell.
I could definitly see Curse bite being an instant cast spell. Harrowstorm casting 50% faster is already a big improvement, removing the wraith shadow component that you must wait for the small energy orb to hit your enemy to finish casting and instead make it in line with its casting animation, and slightly improving the casting speed of several spells such as soul scorch and blades of vanquished armies.
Warlock's bargain, this spell sacrifices HP for life steal, usually a good choice in PvE, since it's considered life steal in PvP you get half the benefits, and in reality when you use this spell you barely break even in terms how much hp restored/sacrificed with it, and that's if your opponent doesn't deflect/dodge/block it, in which case you pretty much take 5k of your HP and throw it in the garbage can. I get the idea of some spells are better for PvE and some for PvP but I think it could do with some improvements for PvP.
Vampiric embrace seems similar, I haven't run down the maths on this one but I assume it uses similar mechanics because the numbers you get from using it in pvp is depressing. (If you've actually done the maths on this one I'd appreciate it). And since it's double the amount healed as temp HP, this component of the spell is halved too.
Next on the list, Soulbinders
The speed at which you lose your soul sparks is overwhelming, you stop combat for a second and you're out, all your buffs and stacks are gone. As a Soulbinder's strength compared to a Hellbringer is the added survival, if you remove our stacks of soul sparks instantly as soon as combat ends that means that 95% of the time there's no benefit to not running an hellbringer in PvP.
What I suggest is the once combat ends, you lose soul sparks based of a rate of x per second. For example, if you managed to get all your sparks up in combat, once it ends you would lose 1 spark per seconds, or 1 spark per two seconds. That gives you 30seconds/1 minute to re enter combat before it's gone and you have to build up again. I don't mind the aspect of building stacks up, what I don't like is how fast you lose those stacks.
Or if anything, give Soulbinders the potential to reach 30 stacks quickly via daily uses or some other method. Like a wizard have feats to get instantly 5 stacks of arcane mastery when casting the lightning daily, I don't see why we couldn't get something similar too.
Those are some of my own ideas from playing SW endlessly in PvP, I think there's more improvements that could be made to Temptation warlocks further than what I've suggested but no ideas comes to mind that could work in PvP without <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up PvE balance, so if you got some input let me know.
EDIT: So i was reading that previously on the test server (before I started messing with it myself I guess) 1spark was actually equivalent to one bar of sparks aka 6 soul sparks. So When I look at snuff out, which is let's be honest lacking too much to even consider be put on my feats bar. Was Snuff out orginally designed to grant 6 sparks aka 1 bar of sparks? If yes, that would make the feat REALLY much more interesting...
Edit 2: I saw some guy posting an idea where he suggested that warlocks get invisible while shifting. I actually REALLY like this idea.
Thanks for reading.
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Post edited by denvald on
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Harrowstorm is so easily cancelled and very difficult to get a cast off if the targeted player is running away. Wraith's Shadow is almost unusable for the same reason. I just started using Soul Scorch so I'm not sure on this one yet. I had no problems using Curse Bite before, I actually think it is fine at its current state. Hellish Rebuke's animation is ridiculously long as well. Vampiric Embrace is ok right now, the damage is weak therefore the health stolen is weak, but it is somewhat helpful.
SW overall is too squishy. I have been stacking defense like crazy and switched from a Fury spec to a Damnation spec just for the 10% defense increase with a SP, this has helped but not much. I specced Hellish Rebuke feat to debuff damage by 5% but simply isn't enough or worth it. Warding Curse's damage debuff is not noticeable AT ALL AS WELL AS the 25% speed debuff from the off hand ability. I think SP should always have a chance to add a lesser curse. Life Steal in PvP needs to get looked at again as well, I have stopped stacking Life Steal as it just gives false hope in PvP.
It's hard being an SW in PvP. Most PvP teams have 2 TRs. We have no way of stopping stealth, our CC ability takes to long to cast, cannot dodge so we are always taking blows directed at us and our debuffs are garbage. I really think if casting times were fixed and our debuffs were slightly better, SW would be much more of a force in PvP.
The issues I find in pvp.
1. Stuns are a death sentence for SW. I don't really understand it, but coming from a TR it seems all stuns last 5 times as long and hit 5 times as often. Stuns are the death to a PVP SW, I just have no recourse but to hold shift praying I can somehow survive the onslaught. To run away and fight another day.
2. Every CC as a SW get requires 2 button presses making it a ****ty CC. It's bad enough that we have terrible casts time compared to other classes but add the fact you have to press the button twice means CC's are easy to avoid.
3. Very long cast times and cool downs.
4. No dodge, if only we could dodge.
5. Innate ****ty defense. It's so hard to get a decent deflect score as a SW. I think max deflect is like 25% as a SW. It's just hard as a SW to kill **** over time when we tank so bad.
Other things aggravating for SW: Whisperknife rogues get a better DOT then SW do? (More damage over time) If only SW had a DOT at will.
From what I can read, in my current state of conciousness, it looks decent to me thus far.
I will comment again when I am sober...
WIN OR LOSE WE BOOZE!!!!!
Currently only use HS to loot sparks, very efficient to stack when critical.
This shift ability is just a complete trash. I have 3k defense and just got 1k tenacity and some stupid control wizard with no vorpal crit me for 28k hp while I was shifting. Where is that 30% DR we are supposed to get? Honestly I'd rather have 1 dodge than full bar of that shadow slip
Cast time is frustrating at best too, why do the other beloved caster class has like blink-short casting time while SW looks like an cripple? Oh and our main tool for survivability is just "depressed".
The whole thing feels like we have to build our SWs as tanky as Guardian fighter to provide at least some challenge in end pvp. Which I see some people doing already
WTB Class Reroll please
Not this time cause it's simple, SW are USELESS in pvp.
Thanx denvald and others for putting it so well.
SW need something like changing Prince of Hell to be Deflect 20%/10%/10% instead of ArPen and maybe SW could compete with all the other suggestions above.
This is so true. I can vouch for that. Therefore my warlock is entirely focus on PvE. At least knowing I can wipe stuff with ease at all dungeons now puts my mind at rest. PvPers need lots of love for pvp warlocks are just not at that point at all.
Hopefully they can change the way encounter powers behave in pvp.
军医骑士 超过三千水平 突破极限释放开
Daily: Granworm Sword
Enounter: Vow of Enmity | Worm Smasher | 縮退砲
Class Feature: Kabbalah System
Aura: Warp Field
IGN: Faluzure 19k Tenebrous Soulbinder Scourge Warlock
(The Corrupted) (Retired)
Someone had mentioned about the 30% DR while sprinting, I have not noticed but is this not working?
The only thing that I think really needs to be changed, is BoVA needs to not be deactivated every time we get stunned...
More than just BoVa, if I recall correctly, infernal orbs is stopped when you get stunned as well.
What's your character's name? I've seen you posting in many different threads and you seem confident in your SW, and what skills do you usually use, what feats? Perhaps I missed out on something you know that I don't.
As for me. I'm a 18k, 45k HP with 2.5k deflect 3k def and 18% Life steal etc etc
I use Killing flame, harrow storm and either of Infernal Orbs/dreadtheft usually. Feats I run Borrowed time and either shadow walk or warding curse, depending. Ofc I use arti off hand with borrowed time, thank god for deflection. I assume you use something similar to me anyways but who knows
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
WTB Class Reroll please
well i know nothing about SOulbinder, but your stats are fine as long as you have some regen, more than 600.
depending on the situation:
Killing FLames, Bargain, Harrowstorm
Klling FLames, Fiery Bolt, Harrowstorm
DreadTheft, Bargain, Harrowstorm (this is for pesky TR's and DC's)
I also dont use ANY deflect
I must not have had this happen, or not noticed? what exactly is this all about?
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! <player> deals 57463 (58263) Physical Damage to you with Shocking Execution.
Lolz, even my 49k HP can't cope with this and don't have any more slots to put radiant's in.
Yes we all know this problem, just posting for fun.
This works really well, thanx.
Well I just completed my four-pvp daily and each time I found myself in 1v1 against a SW, my 20k gwf in full 6-piece T2 pvp gear went down in no time. But then, it's a gwf.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
there are certainly some strong GWF's out there. Most GWF's can 1 or 2 hit average SW's btw.
Happened a few times latly been hit 3x by DC using Daunting Light while they Channel Divinity, but they still need to target an area on the ground(yes Ctrl means it locks on to a target) but while I am using Shadow Sprint all 3 still hit me:(
i play one 15,4k GS nothing special, just played faithfull all the time --> only killable when 2-3 player above 15k stick together
now respecced to DPS to get the PVP campaign forward
i use sunburst all the time that knocks u out of the map, then breaking the will, that stunns you, after all debuff with devine glow, that heals my self, the rest of the time you mostly can´t touch me cause of 4xdodges with immunitiy to cc and damage
Warlock is really no problem for this class, it just mets away after 3 times divine BTS
only the TR is cometetive, but even 1vs1 he often has problems, if i don´t make lots of mistakes
so DC is really enyoyable atm
really can´t imagine u allways face nub players?
Well 90% of the time Im not standing in front of the cleric, so those abilities are kind of a moot point.
Faithful is pretty nasty indeed, had a 5 minute long fight with a DC in IWD, but I could not heal myself fast enough to keep up in the long run. Please keep in mind, he was a maxxed out BIS with all purple companions and a maxed out stone. In Dominaions it much easier to jump a DC and kill him in 1 rotation than in IWD
DC has so much potential to avoid damage or to heal up if faithfully skilled
think he didn´t try to just stay alive, but tried to beat you?
normally you do not have a chance to get him down allone imo
or if i was him... just let u win because 5min during fight becomes boring, especially if u want to farm black ice
I'm an SW< no one simply, Lets me win.
Healer DC can be burned down only after their gift of faith has proc'd and while they are in between cycling divine astral shields. Even then you better have a daily loaded up when you unload.
This is the only way I've ever been able to solo equally geared DCs.
Against a DPS DC its a race to the CC. If you can harrow prone them before they can chain stun you then you stand a better chance of winning since most DPS DC have horrible defenses.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock