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Forums > Home› PvE Discussion

Diminishing returns... AGAIN!

duoofredwallduoofredwall Member Posts: 7 Arc User
edited January 2015 in PvE Discussion
Hey guys, I've been going over diminishing returns since I started playing Neverwinter and I still can't wrap my head around it. In principle I think I understand what it is and why it's there but I don't REALLY understand it if you get my meaning. I've looked over other threads and charts but that stuff is Greek to me.

So this is me reaching out to the NW community asking for an idiots guide to diminishing returns. Specifically:

1. What the HELL are diminishing returns? Like seriously, what is it? What dose it do? Brake it down Barny style for me if you don't mind.

2. Can diminishing returns be expressed in a simple stat score? All the equations and percentages and charts I've seen confuse me. I know I found a thread a while back that had soft cap and hard caps for DR but I can't find it again.

And while I'm on the topic...

3. What's the difference between the soft cap and the hard cap for DR?

I'd really appreciate anyone that can answer these questions for me. I love this game and as much as I hate the concept of DR I need to understand it to "perfect" my characters... and by that I mean not get my *** kicked in PVP so much. T-T.

Thank you in advance.
Post edited by duoofredwall on

Comments

  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj

    follow the graphs, if you left click a graph line and drag the mouse you;ll see the correlation between the stat and the %. Higher you go on the graph, lower the gain for any 100 stat increase.

    Soft cap is when the returns arent that great and curve starts to flatten a bit. A hard cap is when the curve is severely flatten.
  • duoofredwallduoofredwall Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So diminishing returns is when the points per stat don't increase that stat as much as it usually would for lower lvl's?

    So in other words wasted points for a marginal gain you could put somewhere else?
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited January 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • duoofredwallduoofredwall Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Hypothetically, if all my stats were say 23k~25k but I kept pumping stats in my recovery. I would still gain recovery just increasingly less?

    That and I noticed power wasn't on this graph. Does power not have a DR point?
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited January 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    duoofredwall wrote: »
    Hypothetically, if all my stats were say 23k~25k but I kept pumping stats in my recovery. I would still gain recovery just increasingly less?

    That and I noticed power wasn't on this graph. Does power not have a DR point?

    1-Yes
    2- power gains the same 1% for every 166.6 invested, but 1% added to the, let's say 60 you already have and is equivalent to 1.016% multiplier. 1% added to 80% is a 1.00125 multiplier and so on, above 100 it gets under 1 as multiplier.
  • duoofredwallduoofredwall Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Are DR the same across the board or do they differ for each class?
  • duoofredwallduoofredwall Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ortzhy wrote: »
    1-Yes
    2- power gains the same 1% for every 166.6 invested, but 1% added to the, let's say 60 you already have and is equivalent to 1.016% multiplier. 1% added to 80% is a 1.00125 multiplier and so on, above 100 it gets under 1 as multiplier.

    Wow! that was enlightening and simple, thank you.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    duoofredwall wrote: »
    Are DR the same across the board or do they differ for each class?

    Same for all, but each class favors some stats over the others...
  • duoofredwallduoofredwall Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So from experience if you would put a number on soft caps and hard caps for each stat what would you say? The chart is good but still a little vague for me. To me the DR doesn't start looking like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> until 6k but I've NEVER heard of anyone pushing a single stat that high.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    duoofredwall wrote: »
    Wow! that was enlightening and simple, thank you.

    tho i might have not been so accurate since the power multiplier is a (1+power%) so 1 % in power is a 0.625 multiplier for a 60% and a 0.555 for a 80%, but the ideea is the same.

    http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/342-crit-power-and-dps-the-numbers-guide/

    here is the table for power, he breaks it down for 100 points of power while i did it for 166 points.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    duoofredwall wrote: »
    So from experience if you would put a number on soft caps and hard caps for each stat what would you say? The chart is good but still a little vague for me. To me the DR doesn't start looking like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> until 6k but I've NEVER heard of anyone pushing a single stat that high.

    around 4k is seen as a "hard cap", while 2.5 is the soft cap.
  • duoofredwallduoofredwall Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Thanks muchly. You guys rock. turns out DR were not what I thought they really were at all and not I have a better understanding of how it works.
  • inthefade462inthefade462 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Hard cap actually means you receive no further gains for investing more stats. The only true "hard cap" is for armor pen in PVE, which is about 2540 (24%).

    There are soft caps where returns start to diminish (~2-2500), and harder caps where diminishing returns starts to really take effect (~3-4000), but they are still soft caps.

    And those are not hard coded or anything. Different people will give you different gauges for where things hit "soft" cap and where things "hard cap" (but again, it's not actually a hard cap). after a few hundred points in a stat, every point you invest in a stat gives less than the previous point. This is diminishing returns. It's really up to you to decide when investing further in a stat really benefits you over investing in another stat. You'll reach a point where you will want the most power or hp or both on every item in every slot because every single stat you have is suffering from deep diminishing returns.
  • blackiejblackiej Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I’ve seen some good answers in this topic but there is also some misinformation flying around.
    There are a few things I would like to add or correct.

    Let’s start with your main question about diminishing returns.
    There are always two things you look for in your character panel. The amount of the stat added and the increase in the percentage.
    This is best explained with an example. (hypothetical numbers) Let’s say you have 1000 recovery which nets you 10% increased recharge speed. Now if you add 500 recovery you will reach 1500 recovery and say 12.5% increased recharge speed. (increase of 2.5%)
    However if you would have had 3000 recovery netting you 28% increased recharge speed and you add 500 recovery for a total of 3500, you will only gain say 1% for a total of 29% increased recharge speed.
    (increase of only 1 %)

    In short, each additional point you add to a stat becomes worth increasingly less when the stat gets higher and will gain you a smaller amount of increase In %.
    Also these diminishing returns are the same for every class but some classes still want different amounts of a curtain stat as they consider this stat important for their class or they might get a flat increase in % by feats.

    There are 2 exceptions to this rule (mentioned before) which are health (HP) and power which gain linear no matter the amount you stack. This is also the reason radiant enchants are used a lot by higher geared players as they already reached all their soft caps for other stats and want the most out of the remaining stats.

    Then let’s move to hard caps and soft caps. Let’s first take a look at both these terms.
    A hard cap means you cannot ever reach more, even though you stack more of the specific stat. There is only one and I repeat only 1 hard cap in this game which is Damage Reduction (DR) which is hard capped on 80%. (I’ll get into DR later).
    A soft cap means after you reach a certain amount of a stat, the increase in % by adding more of that stat are minimal and thus suboptimal. It DOES NOT mean you can’t increase it to any higher, it only means you gain very little for the points spend and you might consider spending the points elsewhere.

    Now you asked about DR (which is damage reduction). This has been confused in the topic with defence. If you look at DR it is the total of your defence, armour class (AC) and for PvP you can add your tenacity %. The hard cap on this stat in both PvE and PvP is always 80%. If you reach this point you cannot gain any more DR.
    The soft cap of this stat in PvE is around 50% (for most classes) and is reached by getting enough defence and AC. In PvP some classes can actually reach the 80% by adding 30% tenacity to the total reaching the 80% DR.

    Then there has been a statement about a hard cap for armour penetration which would lie at 24% (the amount you need to nullify a bosses defence). Even though it is true putting points into ArP once you reached the 24% is wasted for PvE, it is NOT the hard cap.
    You can still keep stacking ArP and gain more % penetrated (sure diminished quite high but you do gain %). When would you want this? The answer is PvP. To kill some classes you want to rip as much of their defences away (as players can and will have more than 25% DR).

    And finally some pointers about soft caps. I don’t know your class so I can’t really assist you with the exact numbers but here are some general pointers for increasing your DR (which you asked):
    Defence: This stat is gaining very high till around 2900 and then still gives quite a decent amount till 4800. Iv stacked this stat till 6000 but the difference between 4800 and 6000 is around 3% for me, so not really worth it.
    Once you reach the 2900 i'd start putting points into deflection stat till the first soft cap and then to back to defence.
    Deflection: Gains high till around 1500 then decent gains till 2800. After that the diminishing returns hit hard.
    AC: Just get as much as you can get if you want to go tanky, think about the +8AC neck for example.
    Tenacity: stack till around 1000 for the most gains, then you can stack till 1500 till the harsh diminishing returns hit. (I personally don't want more then 1000)
    Health: Stack it baby, get like 40k if you want to do any PvP.


    This turned into quite the wall of text, I hope you got through it and its off some assistance.

    //
    ~ da Vinci (22k AC Faithfull PvP Cleric)
  • levthan2levthan2 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Do we have this curves also for Action point gain?
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited January 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    starbigamo wrote: »
    And that explains why GF suck at high GS.

    That and the fact that there are basicly 5 offensive stats (the 4 offensive stats plus lifesteal that is in fact a offensive stat) And just 2 REAL defensive stats, being then defense and deflect. Regeneration have almost zero impact during combat.

    so 5 stats beneficing damage and just 2 stats beneficing survival.

    That explains why at high GS Guardian fighters drops like flies.

    there are 3 defensive stats hp/def/deflect (lifesteal is a hybrid). Both GF and GWF have a def multiplier in feats, GF makes a better use of high HP and also favors recovery, while GWF makes a better use of def and crit. Now there are stats everywhere and all the caps are being reached so these details doesnt matter anymore.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited January 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    starbigamo wrote: »
    So the problem is with Conqueror tree. Its really bad now. No damage and no tankness.

    I have almost 19k GS and my damage reduction is almost the same as when i first reach level 60, around 45%

    y solo pve GF is bad experience, only with a HR combat/pathfinder did i have a more unpleasant experience.

    - Protector tree does its job rly good and you dont require too much gear to perform well in both grp pve/pvp, but solo pve.... :)
    - Low gear GF (i have mine at 16k) does struggle a bit even as conqueror, but it does do a rly good job vs single target.

    There are a few things that made it better for me: Briartwine armor enchantment, Blacksmith-Renegade Evoker and Doohickey.
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