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Respect.
frishter
Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
I'm actually a firm believer of respect. Some of the things I've said here may seem hypocritical, which in a way they are because when I see actions of a negative manner, I can see that as disrespectful and hence the thing in question loses my personal respect, hence why I point out flaws in the game with occasional slight snark as a lot of actions seem pretty disrespectful towards those that keep the game running. Also what I say here is actually a very small part of me that doesn't usually show up my behaviour.
So on the whole, I really don't like the huge amount of disrespect that happens online, in gaming in general, and generally the high level of toxicity that often happens. I feel like I'm probably pretty lucky to really avoid most of the negative attitudes. It could really get to me, not from a single person, but to see it constantly happen. There's is zone chat and sometimes I see someone saying something in pvp, but in my Neverwinter career it's been pretty minimal even though I'm sure it's still widespread. Another thing I don't like is feedback that has some value in being closed off, which I also find disrespectful, but we can't really go into specifics there can we, so lets keep it vague and let your mind fill in the blanks.
To cut to the point, I was pondering whether I should solo CN. I managed to solo it to draco before and completely failed past that point, with legendary artifact equipment now I wondered whether to give it another shot, instead I saw only a few guild members online so didn't bother them and decided to pug it instead thinking I'll possibly end up with a group where I get to solo draco anyway. Funnily enough I got 4 people who were 10k gs. I'd find that disrespectful to join with low gs that some of them didn't even have a full set, even though it's one of the harder beta content there is, however it worked well with what I wanted anyway, I knew I could solo up to draco anyway. So when we got to draco, they died easily enough anyway and by that point I was at like 90m damage and #2 was 9m or something. That didn't bother me, if I wanted a decent group I wouldn't have gone through the whole dungeon or possibly pug it.
It took a few wipes, and eventually 3 of the team leave, which I don't blame them. I decided to slot shield for survivability (which is kind of hard with so many mobs vs just you) which seemed to help me last longer. Not sure what I'd need to help me last longer, A sylph might help against the new annoying roar. Anyway at that point new people arrive and vote kick the sw who has been through the whole dungeon and he got kicked without notice. Quite unfair to hijack a party and enter at the very end and kick someone who has been through it all. I didn't mind carrying them all, and they're not really any less entitled to the loot that someone that skipped most of the content. Luckily I won the loot, which I felt I deserved the most but was not too bothered about. But seriously, if you enter at the end, be grateful that you managed to save a bunch of time. There's no need to be rude and feel entitled to kick others when you're only a guest.
Of course it's not even a Neverwinter problem, or even the worst issue in Neverwinter when you have people calling each other names. In league of legends there was a decent amount of trash talking. All because of a different skill level or a simple mistake, it's not their fault. They're just trying to have fun. I also play a little bit of hearthstone and the majority of the time if you're winning, they will surrender. Even if on the next turn you'd win, they'd save a few seconds and surrender. Personally I think that shows no honour. Why be so lazy that you can't be bothered to wait a few moments to finish what we came here to do. It's like the outcome is more important than the actual game itself.
Personally I don't know if it's worth it, or if the place is suitable for me (not Neverwinter, although I'd say it's not really the place for me anymore anyway). Do I really want to put up with the actual **** people give each other? It is something that you have to put up with. It also makes me wonder if as a species we belong here or if we're too greedy and judgemental to deserve it. Does it even matter if we have such traits even if it affects others as long as we come out on top? After all, life is all about coming out on top and doing the best for your own survival.
Hijacking parties and loot is nothing new, but I felt like discussing about respect. I also wonder if toxicity will continue to breed further.
tl;dr Be considerate to other players. They're people too, and don't leech completely off of their work or time.
Sorry, I write too much at times :c
So on the whole, I really don't like the huge amount of disrespect that happens online, in gaming in general, and generally the high level of toxicity that often happens. I feel like I'm probably pretty lucky to really avoid most of the negative attitudes. It could really get to me, not from a single person, but to see it constantly happen. There's is zone chat and sometimes I see someone saying something in pvp, but in my Neverwinter career it's been pretty minimal even though I'm sure it's still widespread. Another thing I don't like is feedback that has some value in being closed off, which I also find disrespectful, but we can't really go into specifics there can we, so lets keep it vague and let your mind fill in the blanks.
To cut to the point, I was pondering whether I should solo CN. I managed to solo it to draco before and completely failed past that point, with legendary artifact equipment now I wondered whether to give it another shot, instead I saw only a few guild members online so didn't bother them and decided to pug it instead thinking I'll possibly end up with a group where I get to solo draco anyway. Funnily enough I got 4 people who were 10k gs. I'd find that disrespectful to join with low gs that some of them didn't even have a full set, even though it's one of the harder beta content there is, however it worked well with what I wanted anyway, I knew I could solo up to draco anyway. So when we got to draco, they died easily enough anyway and by that point I was at like 90m damage and #2 was 9m or something. That didn't bother me, if I wanted a decent group I wouldn't have gone through the whole dungeon or possibly pug it.
It took a few wipes, and eventually 3 of the team leave, which I don't blame them. I decided to slot shield for survivability (which is kind of hard with so many mobs vs just you) which seemed to help me last longer. Not sure what I'd need to help me last longer, A sylph might help against the new annoying roar. Anyway at that point new people arrive and vote kick the sw who has been through the whole dungeon and he got kicked without notice. Quite unfair to hijack a party and enter at the very end and kick someone who has been through it all. I didn't mind carrying them all, and they're not really any less entitled to the loot that someone that skipped most of the content. Luckily I won the loot, which I felt I deserved the most but was not too bothered about. But seriously, if you enter at the end, be grateful that you managed to save a bunch of time. There's no need to be rude and feel entitled to kick others when you're only a guest.
Of course it's not even a Neverwinter problem, or even the worst issue in Neverwinter when you have people calling each other names. In league of legends there was a decent amount of trash talking. All because of a different skill level or a simple mistake, it's not their fault. They're just trying to have fun. I also play a little bit of hearthstone and the majority of the time if you're winning, they will surrender. Even if on the next turn you'd win, they'd save a few seconds and surrender. Personally I think that shows no honour. Why be so lazy that you can't be bothered to wait a few moments to finish what we came here to do. It's like the outcome is more important than the actual game itself.
Personally I don't know if it's worth it, or if the place is suitable for me (not Neverwinter, although I'd say it's not really the place for me anymore anyway). Do I really want to put up with the actual **** people give each other? It is something that you have to put up with. It also makes me wonder if as a species we belong here or if we're too greedy and judgemental to deserve it. Does it even matter if we have such traits even if it affects others as long as we come out on top? After all, life is all about coming out on top and doing the best for your own survival.
Hijacking parties and loot is nothing new, but I felt like discussing about respect. I also wonder if toxicity will continue to breed further.
tl;dr Be considerate to other players. They're people too, and don't leech completely off of their work or time.
Sorry, I write too much at times :c
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
WTB Class Reroll please
Does it corrupt or does it just unleash a persons true self?
WTB Class Reroll please
2. I've had it form the other end. Get landed in a party. then immediately have a vote kick "I didn't want a HR , I wanted a CW."
pure greed and self interest, unfortunately you get it everywhere.
You have to learn to deal with the arsewipes because you are going to run into them.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Id say not exactly the "true self" but the true potential to be a total a$$hole. And believe me we all have one lurking inside of us. Online content and esp PVP in mmo games helps one become the most nasty version of oneself
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
This one not banned yet ?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
1) Don't judge others by your own low standards. Anonymity is vitally important for a healthy society, sociopaths aside. You cannot and should not design a society for its most pathological minorities.
2) Most people are just as tiresome face to face, just try taking a busy commuter train. It's the lack of anything much at stake that's the issue, not invading their privacy.
We are talking about different kinds of anonymity.
WTB Class Reroll please
It doesn't come in a variety of flavours, it's binary and absolute.
Anyway, I am not an expert to discuss it with you, plus I believe you were irritated when you posted a reply, as I can judge by the sum of your recent posts so I don't think there is any rope to productive conversation.
WTB Class Reroll please
Just like the game, the forum has no automated protection I guess. Mods have to come in and do the job manually.
The dungeon requirement lists 9200 GS as the minimum to get in. And all those people queuing met the minimum. Yet, you arbitrarily call that disrespectful because they didn't meet YOUR standards of what YOU think people need to play with YOU. So in essence, you're doing exactly what you're trying to call other people out for, but you believe YOUR actions are justified. This is the elitism that creates a foundation for all the disrespect and toxic actions in the game. Once you start arbitrarily deciding people aren't good enough to play with YOU, it becomes easier and easier to diminish and disrespect them.
You just did it. So do a lot of people. When someone's screaming at a person in Tiamat, by THEIR standards, THEY believe THEY'RE justified in yelling at a person. When a person is calling someone a scrub for ruining *THEIR* PvP match, THEY feel like THEY'RE justified.
Just like you feel like it's ok to knock other players because THEY didn't meet YOUR minimum gearscore requirement to run with YOU through CN.
It's hypocritical.
Emphasis is mine. People need to relax and just enjoy the game for what it is. MMOs were created because people thought it would be awesome to play with a bunch of people. And some people, like myself, enjoy that. But I also accept that you're going to get very random results. If you enter a random dungeon queue, you're going to get a random assortment of people. But it's not their fault if they don't meet YOUR standards.
If you're queuing for CN, you should expect to see people at or above 9200 GS. That shouldn't shock you. If you have a different standard, then it's up to you to work around that, not look down on other players. And yes, I know you "carried" them through the rest of the dungeon, but you did it with an elitist attitude, that you were better than them and they didn't DESERVE to be there. Which is the foundation for almost all levels of disrespect we see online.
Honestly, it's YOUR attitude that drives me to play almost exclusively with my community. We look for people, not toons. We respect the person, not the gearscore. We don't care how good of a player you are, just that you're a good person. And we constantly seek other like-minded people in the gaming biosphere and try to pull them into our refuge. We're moms, dads, brothers, sisters, grandpas and grandmas, husbands and wives. Not toons.
And unfortunately, this attitude will never be universally adopted in MMOs, because it's so easy to think that you're somehow superior to another person because of a gearscore.
You said it well!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
While I agree privacy is important, are people really that pure? Obviously it's hard to meet everyone out there, but I'd say the majority of us probably have some form of unfair prejudice. Maybe it's that racist a-hole, or person blaming the parents of some misbehaved kid when they have little information about the situation. They may not realise it, but there's often some kind of judgement. I don't want to make this about religion, but there are christians for example told not to judge as that is something only god can do and yet there are some (not all, let's not make it a flamefest everyone, I have nothing against Christianity or any religion) that do a whole lot of judging.
Probably not on the forums here, but I wouldn't blame people.
I still ran with them didn't I? I didn't verbally abuse them, calling them low gs scrubs or anything. What's wrong with me having an opinion on what would be best to complete it? I don't think a complete t1/t2 set is something that much to ask for. They probably didn't know better. However your same argument applies whether the min gs score was 9200 or 5000. You have to trust the official number to be correct, and honestly, since beta it's been all over the place. That lair of mad dragon at 6800 gs limit? Kind of a bit harder than the 8300 pirate king... Now that many people have two to three times the minimum requirement, the limitations matter less since a higher gs player can contribute more providing they know what they're doing. I was right anyway, considering 3 of them left and they all died easy on draco... That's with an almost 22k gs cw that has done CN many times instead of the more likely 10-15k gs cw they'd more likely get. I meant to suggest them to gear up and/or find a guild so that they can be organised, but they left before I managed to. I'm not pretending to be a perfect greater than thou person, but If I have any issues against anyone, I won't be rude to others and that is what I think should be standard.
Blaming the person in pvp is irrational. I blame the matchmaking for such imbalances. The person joined for their own enjoyment and deserves to play against those of a similar level rather than being face-smashed. It's just silly to blame someone for joining a game at a later date or just not invested as much time yet. It's how games stay alive with the introduction of newer players. As for tiamat, screaming at others is again extremely disrespectful. However entering with 10-12k gs is something that shouldn't happen and does let the side down. The gs requirement has progressively gone up and up and when gs has inflated massively, it is wrong to have a gs requirement to the same level as before artifacts were even introduced. It's not designed for 10-12k gsers to complete (thankfully) and if they were meant to join, they deserve a slightly easier tiamat to enter. The gap between 10 and 20k gs is just too big no matter how you want to justify it. However there's a difference between suggesting that they should gear up to contribute their fair share better and actually get more experience and talking trash to/about them.
I didn't knock them. I said (and only here) that they should really work more on their characters. In single player games I don't go from level 3 to level 18 because why not. There's a natural progression you should follow. And that progression is generally not to skip out on pretty much all content. I don't blame people for skipping unnecessary content, however you should be prepared for it. Again, there's kind of a difference between thinking someone needs better gear and calling them a pos.
Well it kind of is. I only expect a minimal amount of investment. However it seemed like they didn't really know better and I should have told them. It was probably their first time, especially when 3 mimics were opened, and so I guess it's kind of Cryptics fault for having the requirements a little too low. I personally never wanted to burden other players if I didn't have enough gear, I find it rude. You kind of missed the point of my post though since I wasn't making a big deal out of it.
It depends how you define elitism. I am better than them. That's not really a shocker, I have much more gear (which isn't a special achievement, but it does allow me to be massively more effective than them) and I have a LOT more experience than them. There's really no reason for me to not feel that way. The important thing is how you actually TREAT them. That's the whole point. I didn't pick on them or insult them. I got them through it. Skill (and gear) differences happen. In league of legends which I used to play a lot of, I would rarely rage, but there may be the occasional time I may be stressed or call them an idiot to my screen. Again it's something that isn't the norm, but stresses do build up, I'm mostly disappointed in my own ability and blame myself for not being better. However I still wouldn't insult anyone to their face, unless I see someone else picking on someone. That's what I think about respect, there's no need to negatively affect other peoples experience just to make yourself feel better.
You're free to play with whatever group you choose. I personally think people need to pull their own weight and invest time into their character and work towards higher level content so that they're more prepared. I'm not telling people to not ever run higher end content, just to work on other stuff before doing other stuff. In the end I'm not going to force them into anything or insult them for doing so. But I worked on a fairly natural progression, and expect others to somewhat do the same. I mean for the ones defending 10k gs requirement for tiamat what are they going to do once they got all of their stuff? They skipped all of the beta content and have no use for any of the 19 dungeons and skirmishes. I mean you can get your wallet out and do that, but it's not something I advise unless you'd at least done it all once. You're skipping and missing out on a huge portion of a game that also teaches you how to work as a team which is needed in a raid.
My attitude is usually pretty friendly.
To a lot of people yes and that is wrong to put so much emphasis on it. However a higher gs does have a huge effect if you make effective use out of it, plus pugs in general can be less skilled. I myself used to do rubbish dps on my gwf until I changed my build and used indomitable battle strike instead of punishing charge which I thought would be decent for its utility. However my team wanted a DC and then my CW so I mained a DC and now onto my CW.
If we want to put my beliefs in real world context, lets say I'm a long time programmer working on a project. If you have no form of programming or IT qualifications then you probably shouldn't be hired. However me working on this project for some time, know what I'm doing better than any new recruit. If they want the job, they should probably get some programming experience. I don't expect you to have made a multi million piece of software.
Anyway to sum up that last quote. People are better at playing than others. However what I don't like is putting others down because you think (which is often the case) or are better than others. It's one thing that makes me wonder if I'm happy being human along with other negative traits. That doesn't mean I'm a sociopath that thinks humans should be gone, just that I'm unsure if being one myself is a good thing and it's something that eventually I'm not able to deal with and accept.
There was a time on the forums being annoyed at how things were run that I decided I'd stop bothering to help others and distance myself. For example once I answered someone, my comment got moved to tld and a moderator went on to almost say the same thing. Annoyingly it's a trait that I could just stop or just move on elsewhere.
You don't want it any more?