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[PvP]Regeneration - Did devs made a mistake designing it?(Piercing vs Regen)
burkaanc
Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
under regeneration i put all passive health regeneration, not just the stat
although now the biggest problem is piercing damage, that could be traced as a countermeasure back to mod2 with too much defense and regeneration, piercing damage is used to counter highly defensive builds like mod2 regen ones
we have 2 opposites, on one end theres highly defensive builds that can shake off damage too easily and cannot be killed unless you deal x dps(making these builds hard/impossible to kill for low dps characters), on other we have piercing damage killing ppl too fast - 1shotting tanks
mod 2 that was dominated by high defense and regeneration, making burst builds kind of bad since the damage doesnt stick and target will regenerate most hp during cooldowns - GWF's were really strong cause their kit - mobility + damage resistance allowed them to use regeneration well, i think tank DC's were quite strong as well, while they didnt have the damage that made GWF's so dominant, they had even more healing + regeneration, but that might be because i have a GWF and DC's were the only class i couldnt kill easily, similar to HR in mod 4, your damage just doesnt stick
mod 4 and 5 that is dominated by piercing damage that simply ignores a big part of defensive class tools - here HR's and TR's are(were) the strongest cause they simply have(had) most piercing damage, still the regeneration of HR's is a strong tool
both options are bad and ruin balance
piercing damage is WAY too strong and it shouldnt exist, but removing it would make defensive regeneration builds too strong
wouldnt changing regeneration help solve these issues ?
tank builds could still be tanky, bout could be brought down eventually, while dps/burst builds could still deal damage, but since the damage would stick it wouldnt need to be so high to 1shot anybody
Regeneration is a nice stat that allows you to regenerate health between fights, why it doesnt work that way ? it could be disabled during combat, it would still be useful, but it wouldnt allow you to ignore damage up to a certain threshold
if regeneration didnt work in combat(and, maybe, had some cooldown after fighting) and piercing damage was removed wouldnt the balance be much better ?
although now the biggest problem is piercing damage, that could be traced as a countermeasure back to mod2 with too much defense and regeneration, piercing damage is used to counter highly defensive builds like mod2 regen ones
we have 2 opposites, on one end theres highly defensive builds that can shake off damage too easily and cannot be killed unless you deal x dps(making these builds hard/impossible to kill for low dps characters), on other we have piercing damage killing ppl too fast - 1shotting tanks
mod 2 that was dominated by high defense and regeneration, making burst builds kind of bad since the damage doesnt stick and target will regenerate most hp during cooldowns - GWF's were really strong cause their kit - mobility + damage resistance allowed them to use regeneration well, i think tank DC's were quite strong as well, while they didnt have the damage that made GWF's so dominant, they had even more healing + regeneration, but that might be because i have a GWF and DC's were the only class i couldnt kill easily, similar to HR in mod 4, your damage just doesnt stick
mod 4 and 5 that is dominated by piercing damage that simply ignores a big part of defensive class tools - here HR's and TR's are(were) the strongest cause they simply have(had) most piercing damage, still the regeneration of HR's is a strong tool
both options are bad and ruin balance
piercing damage is WAY too strong and it shouldnt exist, but removing it would make defensive regeneration builds too strong
wouldnt changing regeneration help solve these issues ?
tank builds could still be tanky, bout could be brought down eventually, while dps/burst builds could still deal damage, but since the damage would stick it wouldnt need to be so high to 1shot anybody
Regeneration is a nice stat that allows you to regenerate health between fights, why it doesnt work that way ? it could be disabled during combat, it would still be useful, but it wouldnt allow you to ignore damage up to a certain threshold
if regeneration didnt work in combat(and, maybe, had some cooldown after fighting) and piercing damage was removed wouldnt the balance be much better ?
Paladin Master Race
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Withot regen you would have to remove piercing damage as you said. For this I would actually allow piercing damage to attack with 100% ARP. Why is this different? Because tenacity and deflect would still play a roll. I would also still suggest increasing the effects of AC across the board or atleat on more tanky classes.
I think currently its 2AC = 1%DR. It should be 3AC = 2%DR.
This gives classes more tankiness. It makes armor pen much more important. Tanks become harder to kill.
This would make lifesteal the most important stat for pvp. With endless consumption and high damage builds. So I like the idea of leaving HD in to mitigate some of that. Id change endless consumption to a double (down from triple).
My other idea for regen is instead of making regen a tick(HoT) make it a reverse of lifesteal.
If you dealt 10k but had 10% lifesteal youd heal for 1000. After HD thats 500.
What if Regen worked that way? If your Hit for 10k with 10% regen, you heal for 1000, after HD it would be 500.
This makes it still very good.
it is not strong now, but if theyd remove piercing(and balance tr from 1shotting ppl) it might get too strong and defensive/regen builds may start running wild, i just propose regen to be reworked along with removal of piercing
smth like HR/DC might still be really hard to take down without piercing(and insane tr burst)
there is simply too much damage in pvp, but they cant reduce overall damage without regen getting out of hand
its kind of like flat damage reduction, but instead if taking damage/hit it takes damage/sec
for example you reduce damage by half(what would make damage/health ration much more fun for pvp) - smth like tr(or other high damage class) can still kill a tank, but what happens if GF fights GF, or tank GWF fights tank GWF or a low dps class tries to kill tank DC? infinite fight since nobody has enough damage to kill other cause it gets nullified by regen
ill be honest i dont get ur point.
regen makes it impossible for low dps builds kill tanky builds
just like mod 2 gwf that could run around writing lols in chat while 3 ppl were hitting them(ofc gear and stuff affected that) i could literally stand still and chat, pressing unstoppable from time to time while insert_low_dps_character_here was trying to kill me, and i wasnt even BiS
for a low dps build to kill a tank should be slow, but no impossible
or like it was for GWF to kill a bit better geared tank DC(if he dodged/resisted prones) in mod2 or hitting melee HR in mod 4
aha and tell me where u find those low dps builds nowdays unless u talk about undergeared pugs.
A low dps build shouldn't be able to solo kill a tanky character.
pretty much this.
edit: the whole thread makes nosense atm
TR Shadow of Demise isn't a problem a problem in terms of mechanics either because again, it's a flat 50% damage bonus, just delayed. The only issue atm is the bug where it double procs with additional weapon damage enchants (Flaming, Frost, Lightning, Bilethorn, etc.), which needs to be fixed.
The above mechanics are fine, although if really need be the damage bonus % can be tuned down but I don't think that's really necessary. Just some bugfixes needed (HR Careful Attack, TR Shadow of Demise double-proc issue to name a few).
The main piercing damage issue in the game atm is TR Shadowy Opportunity, which is a set damage range, also affected by buffs and debuffs. It's based off weapon damage, NOT the damage you just did, so even if you just hit for 200 damage or 20000 damage, you'll do an additional 2-3k from Shadowy Opportunity, which cannot be deflected or mitigated. On the 20k damage, the 2-3k additional damage obviously isn't as much of an issue, but it's just too much of a bonus for fast hitting low damage attacks such as Cloud of Steel. Shadowy Opportunity should either have the damage lowered for PvP or not be affected by damage bonuses, or ideally, be changed to add an additional % of damage to your attacks, like HR Piercing Blade and TR Shadow of Demise.
Also the issue in the game atm isn't the healing necessarily but that there's too much damage going on, which in turns allows for more healing and also forces more healing. Damage and healing levels should be halved at least - and Gift of Faith (DC) needs to be affected by healing depression.
Regeneration is already overshadowed by lifesteal in PvE and it only plays a small part in PvP.
i believe damage in PvP is too high, it should be reduced across the board to make fights longer and more interesting, instead of relying on lucky crit that takes 75% of targets hp
so a 25k gs tank GF shouldnt be able to kill another 25k gs tank GF ?
its not regeneration, its life steal
it is now, but if PvP damage was reduced it would become stronger, and life steal is fair since its based on damage - high damage classes get more from it, but they have less resistance so each point is worth less
generally speaking a fight in any computer game is about depleting enemy resources, games tend to use all kinds of resources - health, mana, cooldowns, when the most important resource(depends on class) is depleted the fight ends
an example of depleting hp is a generic mmorpg warrior bashing heads against another warrior - who runs out of hp loses
an example of depleting mana is fighting smth like generic healer or paladin - he can heal/whatever as long as he has mana so to win you need to deplete that resources
also there can be cooldown reliant classes that are vulnerable without cooldowns
the problem in neverwinter is that developers have only one resource to work with - health, so there is no mana and cooldowns are quite short, and the introduction of dc artifact(and some other stuff) kind of removed the purpose of daily abilities making them more like just another encounter, so they have only health left to work with
regeneration provides possibility of an infinite fight, when resource regenerates faster than its used - a duel becomes like dps check, for example, like fighting last boss in ToS, you can have really great party, with ppl knowing what to do and when so they wont wipe, but if you dont have enough dps you wont ever win it either so you could fight forever, changing regeneration would make it like fighting other bosses - even if it takes really long the fight would end
in essence i want pvp damage reduced across the board, piercing damage removed and regeneration changed so it doesnt become as op as in mod2
sorry if its unclear, but english is my 2nd language so its not always easy to explain my thoughts
and surely nerfing regen ill make fights longer lmao THIS DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE.
Also regen is far from being op with every class dealing so much dmg so entire thread seems pointless to me.
And about gf vs gf you just answered your own question.
Edit: also regen with hd is balanced as it is. I am wondering how you think nerfing regen would make for longer fights ?
Thing is when it comes to tank spec vs tank spec the fight wont end because both ARE SPECED FOR TAKING DMG NOT DEALING IT but ill take a while untill op understand it.
^this
/10chars.
My suggestion would be instead of piercing dmg that treats dr additively introduce piercing dmg that deals with it multiplicatively, that way tankyer classes would still be more tanky vs piercing dmg than squishies but piercing dmg would also affect them more severely.
Another option would be introducing skill that deals piercing dmg based on your health - these skills would be designed to specifically eat away tanks and would not be as effective vs high dps classes that do not posses a lot.
There would still be classes that are higly ressistan, squishy in terms of hp and has high sustaining ability these classes should be addressed with set amount of piercing dmg skills, similar to the ones rogue has.
And there you're missing the point everyone else is telling here. DCs being immortal has nothing to do with regeneration. Hell, you can have 0 regen on DC and still successfully tank half a team alone. DC is the 2nd most OP class at the moment that are simply overshadowed by TRs. Their time will come too.
And you have missed how op of the tread defined regeneration as all passive heals included - regeneration, healing, life steal,hp regains on such effects as deflection for hr builds etc.
We are simply commenting that if the priecing dmg would be totally removed there might again be problems with unkillable characters. I dont think anyone want to fight a char that can run around 5 man party with all of their dmg focused on him simply not dying.
I too find trs to be a more mayor problem now, however at the current state the nerf hammer might hit too hard leaving us with none to kill tanks.
Thats why i suggested different types of piercing dmg to so that they could be applied in different situations - different piercings would allow to counter measures against different opponents, because they treat defenses differently. And this in my opinion would make game more tactical hence more interesting.
warlock temptation gets a debuff to 75% in your healing, our only chance to make up for it is with a high regeneration.
I keep encountering "piercing builds" and it's even worse if they combine in matches
TrapperHR /DPS DC/SaboTR any combination of those is lethal they can deal piercing and easily.
1 dot from the HR 2 dots from the DC... Neeeext!
I also "love" the way some SaboTRs do it. Stealth>4-5daggers from stealth with Shadowy Opportunity>stealth>4-5 more daggers>stealth>4-5 dagg... DEAD!(yes bro you are good.. gg)
Grab a good GF and anyone else (cause it doesn't matter) and here..TROLL party!
Piercing dmg has to be removed or reworked.
I don't know, make it respect DR and Tenacity?? or only tenacity?? keep it undeflactable(it would be a good way to go against that 75% deflection severity of the trs that ppl wine about) or reduce it somehow so it's dmg won't be gamebreaking.
Everytime they've put in piercing damage from tenes on, it's been broken. Just turn the feats that add it into regular damage. Piercing was a great idea to try, but it didn't work, then it didn't work again, and now it doesn't work again. It's time to just stop with the idea.