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Question about Enemy Damage Reduction & Enemy Damage Resistance?
borrowedtime1
Member Posts: 131 Bounty Hunter
TLDR; My questions:
Content:
This is really confusing so I'm gonna use some colors here. I've been reading some of Kaelac's Guides & the Gamepedia (Combat) and here's what I got so far:
Now if we look at Kaelac's Guides, we will see that he suddenly replaced Enemy's Damage Reduction with Enemy's Damage Resistance later on in his guide.
- Is Enemy's Damage Reduction & Enemy's Damage Resistance the same variable?
- Do they both have caps of 12% - 24% in PvE?
- Does Devoted Cleric's -10% Enemy's Damage Resistance Debuff from Divine Glow have no effect in PvE when 4 of the party members already have 24% Armor Penetration?
Related Kaelac's Quotes:
"if your RI is already greater than their Damage Reduction then you get nothing, dealing full damage with every hit."
"if you have RI >= enemy Damage Resistance it does nothing further for you, so in PvE you don't need more than 24 % for bosses, and even less if you mostly clear trash." - Is Devoted Cleric's Break the Spirit still broken?
Related Quotes:
"Nearby allies gain a 10% damage buff per stack consumed, last 8s. Currently increase amount seems bugged."
(Kaelac's Mod5)
"Break the Spirit: No longer incorrectly increased damage by more than expected in some cases."
(November Patch Notes)
"dont use break the spirit for the buff, because it does not work (buff is acquired but it does not do anything)"
(Recent Forums Quote)
Content:
This is really confusing so I'm gonna use some colors here. I've been reading some of Kaelac's Guides & the Gamepedia (Combat) and here's what I got so far:
Player's Armor Penetration or Player's Resistance Ignore are directly affected by Enemy's Armor or Enemy's Damage Reduction. These 4 variables have a cap of 12% (on mobs) to 24% (on bosses); meaning they have NO USE in PvE going over 24%.
Now if we look at Kaelac's Guides, we will see that he suddenly replaced Enemy's Damage Reduction with Enemy's Damage Resistance later on in his guide.
Resistance Ignored % (RI)
Resistance Ignored % (RI) is a key determinant to outgoing damage. Some classes have a stat that provides direct RI. Every point above 10 in that stat will grant +1% RI. This stat is DEX for GF, CON for GWF, INT for SW, STR for HR. For these classes, you don’t need to stack as much Armor Penetration in building RI.
Generally, until you mitigate all opponent's defense 1% RI is equal to 1% more damage. However if your RI is already greater than their Damage Reduction then you get nothing, dealing full damage with every hit.
Damage resistance (DR)
Damage resistance (DR), is the second most important defensive stat after max HP and is the opponent of RI%. In the specific definition it also comes from 2 parts- Armor class and defense. Damage resistance is hard capped at 80% from AC, and defense and tenacity. This means however tanky your are enemy players can still do a minimum of 20% damage to you (less if it is deflected). Anything over the hard cap is wasted.
Armor Penetration and damage resistance in PvE
The attacker’s damage is then reduced by the defender’s Damage Resistance (DR) stat. Attacker’s Resistance Ignored (RI) will negate some of that resistance.
If the enemy has 20% damage resistance, you need to have 20% RI to negate that attack and do full damage, otherwise with you will only do 80% of your damage with each attack. Checking your combat logs/logging in ACT parser allows you to see your effective damage. If there are brackets, the number in bracket is the base damage and outside bracket is actual damage. If your damage resistance ignored is lower than enemy resistance your base damage is reduced, however, resistance ignored will not grant additional damage if the enemy has less damage resistance.
Equation 2.7 Damage calculation based on damage resistance and resistance ignored
This equations shows how important it is to have high RI, as every % of DR negated is an extra % of damage. The further you are from negating an opponent's DR the more important it is to stack ArP and it outperforms power. That said, if you have RI >= enemy DR it does nothing further for you , so in PvE you don't need more than 24 % for bosses, and even less if you mostly clear trash.
Resistance Ignored % (RI) is a key determinant to outgoing damage. Some classes have a stat that provides direct RI. Every point above 10 in that stat will grant +1% RI. This stat is DEX for GF, CON for GWF, INT for SW, STR for HR. For these classes, you don’t need to stack as much Armor Penetration in building RI.
Generally, until you mitigate all opponent's defense 1% RI is equal to 1% more damage. However if your RI is already greater than their Damage Reduction then you get nothing, dealing full damage with every hit.
Damage resistance (DR)
Damage resistance (DR), is the second most important defensive stat after max HP and is the opponent of RI%. In the specific definition it also comes from 2 parts- Armor class and defense. Damage resistance is hard capped at 80% from AC, and defense and tenacity. This means however tanky your are enemy players can still do a minimum of 20% damage to you (less if it is deflected). Anything over the hard cap is wasted.
Armor Penetration and damage resistance in PvE
The attacker’s damage is then reduced by the defender’s Damage Resistance (DR) stat. Attacker’s Resistance Ignored (RI) will negate some of that resistance.
If the enemy has 20% damage resistance, you need to have 20% RI to negate that attack and do full damage, otherwise with you will only do 80% of your damage with each attack. Checking your combat logs/logging in ACT parser allows you to see your effective damage. If there are brackets, the number in bracket is the base damage and outside bracket is actual damage. If your damage resistance ignored is lower than enemy resistance your base damage is reduced, however, resistance ignored will not grant additional damage if the enemy has less damage resistance.
Equation 2.7 Damage calculation based on damage resistance and resistance ignored
Actual damage = base damage * (1 + your resistance ignored % – enemy damage resistance %)
Where attacker RI < defender DR, otherwise attacker RI = defender DR. If total DR > 80%, DR = 80%
Eg if you have 16% resistance ignored and enemy 20% damage resistance
Actual damage = base damage * (1+0.16-0.20)
= base damage *0.96
You do 4% less damage on every attack to that enemy.
Where attacker RI < defender DR, otherwise attacker RI = defender DR. If total DR > 80%, DR = 80%
Eg if you have 16% resistance ignored and enemy 20% damage resistance
Actual damage = base damage * (1+0.16-0.20)
= base damage *0.96
You do 4% less damage on every attack to that enemy.
This equations shows how important it is to have high RI, as every % of DR negated is an extra % of damage. The further you are from negating an opponent's DR the more important it is to stack ArP and it outperforms power. That said, if you have RI >= enemy DR it does nothing further for you , so in PvE you don't need more than 24 % for bosses, and even less if you mostly clear trash.
Post edited by borrowedtime1 on
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Comments
like if there's other site that contain these information i can go read there myself, please share with me a bitt here
Or was /4? - _ - Haven't bothered playing my debuff cleric since m3 so forgot almost everything about DR debuffs
WTB Class Reroll please
You're not gonna find very many verified equations that NWO uses to calculate damage. I can tell you, however, that debuffs do stack additively (most, anyway) and do indeed render monsters with what might be considered a "negative damage resistance". This isn't what is happening, what actually happens when a monster gets debuffed below their 0% threshold is everybody simply get a direct damage buff % for the negative value.
This is due to the fact that, as you pointed out, monsters do not have a "defense value".
Just to further clarify: Armor penetration does not put players or npc's into "negative damage resistance," which is why people say the cap for Apen is 24%. That is the most resistance any mob in PvE has. For PvP, you can go much higher if you want to do more damage against highly defensive classes, because they can have much more than 24% DR.
For weapon enhancements and encounters/at wills/dailies (and I believe set bonuses as well) that debuff damage resistance they become a flat damage increase added on the top, which people sometimes call "negative DR." An example would be Bronzewood enchantment, which becomes a flat 16% damage increase if you have enough Apen to bypass your target's DR. Abilities in this game are bizarre though, and may not always obey this rule.
You can always see a damage increase from divine glow and hallowed ground though, that much is for sure.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
so basically there is no cap as far as party debuff/buff goes.
But buffs/debuffs do change the flow of the battle drastically.
For example, yesterday for the 1st time I experienced such a good group that we managed to kill Tiamat in just 2 rounds (myself witnessed my GWF crit with 405k damage - something truly unbelievable within a regular team)...
1. Damage reduction is the same as damage resistance in my guide. I have now replaced all instances of 'damage reduction' as 'damage resistance' for the sake of consistency.
2. Yes, unless newer content added new enemies that I might not have known about.
3. Divine glow (DG) has both a buff (on allies) and debuff (on enemies effect) aspect. The damage reduction effect is relevant only for the debuff aspect. Therefore, if the party already have 24% base resistance ignored (RI) from ArP the debuffing aspect of DG does not add any damage. However, the buff aspect of DG will apply a damage bonus on allies that is always active and this is independent of the RI vs DR interaction.
4. No idea, haven't tested or played recently sorry.
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