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TR should be burst dps class
zephyrpillar1
Member Posts: 125 Arc User
I just bought this up in chat and became quite irate about people's understanding of the concept. So if any of those people are reading now, I apologize.
However, I want to bring to attention the fact that Trickster Rogues have gone above and beyond. Before you all think that I am a hater, I have mained a TR here since game launch.
While I agree that TR have been overlooked for a much needed buff for 4 modules now, I feel the changes are completely inappropriate for the class.
My trickster rogue has a gear score of 20k, but that does not mean I should be able to complete encounters in Icewind Dale and the Well of Dragons by myself. I don't feel like my gear score should apply here.
The class is simply been misappropriated.
I feel like brute force belongs to the GWF, not the TR. While I admit the extra DPS is nice, it has taken all the craft out of the class. There is no good reason why it shouldn't and couldn't be a burst class, dealing maximum damage to 1 or 2 opponents using poison or bleed damage and then relying on stealth and dodge to regroup for another attack. Currently I stand in front of my opponent dealing maximum damage while not having to rely at all on stealth or dodge, just recovery and crit.
The great weapon fighter should be the class that uses brute force and high DPS to knock back and destroy its opponents. It seems this class has lost its place in the game.
While I don't feel that TR should be completely useless, I feel like the buffs have gone too far. I would like to hear from anybody who has a constructive opinion on this matter.
However, I want to bring to attention the fact that Trickster Rogues have gone above and beyond. Before you all think that I am a hater, I have mained a TR here since game launch.
While I agree that TR have been overlooked for a much needed buff for 4 modules now, I feel the changes are completely inappropriate for the class.
My trickster rogue has a gear score of 20k, but that does not mean I should be able to complete encounters in Icewind Dale and the Well of Dragons by myself. I don't feel like my gear score should apply here.
The class is simply been misappropriated.
I feel like brute force belongs to the GWF, not the TR. While I admit the extra DPS is nice, it has taken all the craft out of the class. There is no good reason why it shouldn't and couldn't be a burst class, dealing maximum damage to 1 or 2 opponents using poison or bleed damage and then relying on stealth and dodge to regroup for another attack. Currently I stand in front of my opponent dealing maximum damage while not having to rely at all on stealth or dodge, just recovery and crit.
The great weapon fighter should be the class that uses brute force and high DPS to knock back and destroy its opponents. It seems this class has lost its place in the game.
While I don't feel that TR should be completely useless, I feel like the buffs have gone too far. I would like to hear from anybody who has a constructive opinion on this matter.
Post edited by zephyrpillar1 on
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One thing that really needs addressed. They turned the TR into an AoE burst nuke.
Because boosting TR's single target damage would cause a huge wave of crying in pvp again. It would be even worse than before.
WTB Class Reroll please
You realize you just said you want the TR to be mostly useless, don't you?
As far as the improved solo capabilities the TR has gained, well these are still not as good as some other classes.
While I also feel some things are too easy, again they are even easier with other classes (try them on some others). The one thing I liked about my TR (and my DC) was that certain solo things were actually challenging to a point and such is not the case anymore on either one. On dailies I often will strip gear off of my characters to make them challenging (and thus fun to me). I even got my GWF down to 6k to do ghost stories with no armor weapon chants also but that proved a bit too chaotic even for me.
To give an example as exe tr right now I van kill people on pvp. I do die but o can two hit people in best case. At 15k gs I come in fourth for dps.
As I see it, the classes (+specific feats/builds) can be divided by their main purpse: Aggro&Tank, Heal, Buff, Debuff, Control and DPS (sorry if I forgot someone)
Just to be clear, many classes can be/do many of those things but I would like to refer to their main purse, the type you want the most out of the build.
DPS we can subdivide too into: burst , sustained, AoE and single target.
The DPS groups are not necessarily mutual exclusive and a lot of classes can switch by switching encounters/at-wills and more flexible than swapping builds/classes.
For example SS-Thaum CW with steal time, icy terrain and sudden storm is a great AoE Burst DPS. - they can dump alot of AoE damage into 6 sec EotS.
Said so we can look at the TR:
CC - Smoke bomb, Dazing.
debuf - WR.
buff - (critical teamwork)
Tanking - deflect, ITC
DPS - at-wills, lashing,dazing,blitz,potb, etc
So TRs had/have very weak debuff and no buff ability, a single good CC and a lack of tanking feats.
I personally feel that getting a TR to a party because it had +5% crit and a single CC is a bit pitiful (not ill meant but still...)
That left the TR with a DPS class and good sustained single target damage. Why sustained ? - TR damage was mainly DF bleed and it took time to ramp up. That's mainly why in weak /low geared groups TR shined and later when the power creep and some changes came, to became unwanted, at the weak groups/times the bleed had time to tick, now everything melts in seconds.
With that many in PvE ditched the smoke and moved to more damage, nothing that is controllable lived longed enough anyway.
So now come the changes: (I'm reffering to the main PvE DPS builds, not PvP scoundrel - shame can't dual spec btw)
We got more AoE - Smoke, invis-dazing, potb.
More CC - invis dazing actually worth something as CC.
More burst -
Exe feats became (if will work) more first strike, enemy has health bonus, burst oriented with a 6 second capstone.
Sabo can be played as even better burst: invis->encounter->cpastone proc->invis->encounter->wr x2-x3->invis->burst again, allowing to burst two forced crit encounters without using SS in fast succession which gives a much faster burst than the 6 seconds of the executioner.
So actually as i see it with the new tab="make my next hit be big crit" encouraged mechanics we got more burst. A burst the old TR could not do.
What we lost:
Stealth no longer viable as aggro control /defense mechanism, if you have stealth, you want to use it to get the big crit hit, proc capstone and get it recharged as fast as possible to repeat.
As I said -> it is now The big hit button.
Single target -> hard to judge because some (read as a lot especially for the exe) of the feats are not working as intended, so remains to o be seeing if the TR can sustain the single target DPS or not. btw, Sabo, imo is harder to master than exe as burst (not perma with GC), but probably can deliver higher damage.
Side effects:
Life steal -> with the old TR you could face tank almost anything, now with more damage comes even more responsibility.... err life steal.. with the same 10% life stealth, you recover faster and can face-tank even more.
So bottom line In my Opinion:
Did the TR became more burst? Yes.
Can the burst be improved? I think it does, for example the 6 seconds in PvE are long long time, something simple:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?795481-Shadow-if-Demise-Suggestion
Did he lost the stealth defense mechanic and now encouraged just press stealth to get the big hit and loose stealth immediately? Also Yes.
Did the TR became some sort of a hybrid sort of a bit CW a bit something else and looks like lost his niche ? Unfortunately yes, I'm a great believer that a TR should be a single target (burst + sustained) but while the AoE is nice and allows to top the charts, I think there are other classes that do that better.
Will the TR be able to be single target ? Not while the PvP is not dis-chained from PvE in this matter. And having tenacity and no dual spec for PvP only makes a PvP TR very gimp in PvE and vice versa.
Yes, I agree, that aggro wise and defense, the new invis usage is useless and lost it's meaning, the new usage and 'skill' usage is the timing of your powers relative to invis to get maximum damage.
And said all that what I think you mostly feel is power creep + life steal.
With enough dungeon runs I wouldn't bother to dodge or ITC (i personally don't slot ITC most of the time) just because it got boring and i got lazy and that even at lower GS - around 13k. you can DF and life steal will keep you alive, worst case SF will proc. Did that power creep killed the need for skill, reactions or even being awake? yes.
Unslot some life steal and go into eLoL without GF and DC and suddenly you get killed and need to use pots, I was honestly surprised the first few times and now lazy me prefer GF too, and to not to kill that GF I even dodge. So try it, becuse having twice the GS of the doungon even with the Diminshed returns does diminish the need for skill, you just feel it now better because now your gear actually has better effect compared to older TRs who could gear to the end of time and still hit less than other unnamed classes and hence sustain less.
edit-
holly **** it is long.. sorry.. i wouldn't read it myself too if i saw how long it is...
Also, the smoke bomb is so powerful it pretty much kills any non-elites in a party run. With no target cap you just round all these guys up and wipe them out with a single stroke.
D&D is a party tabletop rpg, NW is an mmo. It's very difficult to maintain trinity or niche class in a game designed as a solo grind to make money. Every class needs to round out and that's what the class reworks in mod 4 and 5 have been doing. Each class still has it's unique characteristics but they no longer fulfill a niche role.
That really isn't what I meant whatsoever. I did like some of the points you made. The main point I was trying to make is that the TR no longer requires the use of its class benefits, and therefore its basically not a trickster at all. Its like it jumps up and says "hey!, heres my trick, I can stand here and dps you down" obviously this is not the class intention.
The rogue definitely needed a damage boost, but I strongly feel like its lost its finesse.
Good point, but those classes should (except HR.. that has similar issues to TR) But the GWF is a stand alone high DPS class. Its made for brute force and should be able to complete those encounters with relative ease.
The CW is a multi target weapon, It should be able to control adds long enough to defeat them (with some dodging etc) I don't feel like the CW should be able to DPS its way to the top though. It should theoretically control adds and deal slightly less damage over more time than a lot of damage over a short space of time during AoE. This allows other classes within the party to assist them in the dispatch of enemies.
I think the biggest problem with this game is people's inability to work as a team during team events such as dungeon's and PvP
try scoundrel path, seems like perfect trickster to me:
Quick stealthed deft strike activating skullcracker, shadow strike to prolong daze and stealthed dazing strike to finish slowed down opponent, if he survived it probably means that he has more than 35k HP and high level gear ready to show you his "tricks" but by that time deft should be avaible and all you need is to swith targets <- belive me it's hell of fun to jump from target to target with it, picking weaker opponents first, gaining distance between stronger ones and cutting their numbers one by one (before mod5 it was nearly impossible to acomplish due to lack of survivability and proper encounters, now we have 3-4 dodges depending on build, additional deflect from dex and encounters fast enough to land a hit)
Also: increased burst damage on TR came from 100% crit from stealth and possibility to use dazing strike effectively (+/- other changes like PotB and SB)
You know that arterial cuts and poison kills in the same way as smashing someone with giant sword or club?
because you have gone above and beyond in gs the game has no challenge. to offer you.... just wear lower gear bro.... you are basically in diety mode man.
all people with super gear scores above the required have this issue.
its almost like a lvl 60 going to black lake saying no challenge .....
doesnt matter what class...
Ok so lets look at that for a minute, why am I given the ability to go above and beyond in gear score if there is really no content for it?
If PvP matchmaking was better then I could fully understand it, but I don't need an extreme gear score to annihilate new level 60's, or even t1 60's for that matter.. so what is the purpose exactly? Am I ahead of the content? The only challenge I had was eSoT and that was before TR was buffed. Im at a loss, I mean yes I could remove enchantments, and even swap my gear out, but that's what ive been working towards this whole time.. it seems rather pointless
Probably because it's faster to give you some boons than make a dungeon and that's what there are a lot of threads about, many people out-geared the content + power creep...
And yet there are still people asking to nerf ToS because they can;t make it with 18k GS (search the forums - there was such thing), or just now there is a thread about making a hard raid, and already there it's an issue - "it should be available to casuals"
and btw, your usage of DPS is very strange, DPS = Damage per second. can be burst can be sustained doesn't matter. looks like you referring to face-tanking or something else.
This means they need to give us more DoT....
My tr does well in pve and pvp...
I DONT even use ITC anymore
I'm not sure what you refer to. I think just gave example how you can not dodge nor itc and still do any t2 with facetanking almost anything do to life steal and way to much gear.
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Or a seperate queue for TR created, as the CCCP server has
(As a 16.7k TR I can tell you I lost to a 19k CW yesterday)
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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I would say as far as PVE goes TR is in a very nice place. I'm not sure what your playstyle is, I'm a sabotuer. Last time I checked act I was dealing almost 40% of my damage with flurry, 28% with smoke bomb and 12% with dazing strike. My single target dmg is very good, I usually find myself climbing the DPS charts in boss fights. I top paingiver almost everytime in ELOL and SOT, but usually am 2nd or below in add heavy dungeons like CN or the T2s.
My rotation is very skill intensive, much more challenging than any mod before. Having said that, If your doing solo content then ya.... everything is just going to die, but that's the same case with nearly any other class. You seem to have the idea that GWFs should have "more brute force" than TR's. Considering GWFs have so much more toughness than TRs I would ask why. TR is basically a damage dealer and that's it, something they share with HRs. In all honesty TR is probably the 2nd best controller class next to CW, but it's not like a TR's control abilities are even a nth of what a CW can do.
Based on what I've seen in dungeon runs, PVE-wise this is the most balanced mod so far. Everyone is saying that GWFs are weak, but I'm still seeing them as the 2nd most stacked class next to CWs. If anything I rarely see LFMs calling for TRs. I think GWFs and HRs could use a pve dmg boost and CWs could stand to deal a bit less dmg, but nothing extreme in either case.