Can we get real, like just once for a change ?

emilemo · November 2014

Now, its my belief that what we say on the forums doesnt really matter towards actual game changes but that small part that does matter, that does make it thru to the devs is very important. That is why we cant afford to taint it, we cannot afford to keep spewing bias if we want to play this game and actually enjoy it for the foreseeable future. With that being said here we go.

I will start from the perspective of my own toons and try to tell it straight, please do the same and we'll see where we actually stand. I have a 20K+ GF Conq and a 20K+ GWF Int Sent (8k power in pvp dom ). My Sent was a Destroyer but I had a race reroll for free with the lizard pack so long story short I turned him into the FotM dragon sent. I'll cover my GWF since due to not having enough resources Ive retired my GF.

1) GWF ( my original and main toon since launch ) - Mod 4 Int Sent was over the top period but was not the top dog. Mod 5 Int Sent is still over the top. I still manage over 30K AoE crits in PVE which means my rotation in an eLoL or eSoT amounts to ~ 100 000 damage to a single target... Is it too much for a supposed tank ? Yes it is. But it does seem in line with the new paradigm devs introduced in mod 5, namely everyone does crazy damage. For PVP last mod I say this ( 1x1 ):
- CW - in rare cases a very good dodger with sigil of the devoted could take me
- HR - the best ones always killed me
- TR - the best permas could kill me slowly
- GF - the best GF could take me but it was a 50/50 fight
- GWF - other Int Sents could take me , 50/50
- DC - waiting for them to start killing me
- SW - never killed me alone

I never ever 1 or 2 shot skilled/bis PVP players regardless of class unless I catch them offguard or already engaged in a fight. I do alot of 1 shotting when the random queue I always use f*** up and pits me vs lower GS guys. If you've met Int Sents with upwards of 10 000 Power in PVP who do insane damage even to your own bis PVP toons then blame Cryptic not the class/player. Too much class based hate goes around already.

This is it then, this is what I actually experience playing my toon. Honestly further damage debuffs would be a bad move at this point but this is of course coming form a GWF player. Can you people come and speak openly telling things straight without the " buff me/nerf them " mentality ? We need to start doing that and stop telling lies because some wallet warrior or botter with 23K GS managed to kill us in a 1x1.

koalazebra1 · November 2014

emilemo wrote: »

Can you people come and speak openly telling things straight .

ok I'm gonna be straight. I dusted off an alt TR (12k GS) and it literally just LOL'd at the BiS GWFs and GFs doesnt even have icewind dale boons lol and wearing only a normal plaguefire and rank6s +some7s

emilemo · November 2014

koalazebra1 wrote: »

ok I'm gonna be straight. I dusted off an alt TR (12k GS) and it literally just LOL'd at the BiS GWFs and GFs doesnt even have icewind dale boons lol and wearing only a normal plaguefire and rank6s +some7s

cheers, id seriously enjoy it while it lasts

zvieris · November 2014

I also play a sentinel GWF, but not because it has the best burst. Because I enjoy offtank gameplay. And about that... I wouldn't mind intimidation damage having a cap on base damage say 3k IF sentinel could actually tank. Both survivability wise and threat generation wise. A secondary tank that gets 2 shot by trash mobs or getting 1 rotationed by clerics, and unable to hold aggro? That's not how I imagined this class.

helpimblindinrl · November 2014

20k cw, who knows what the number will be when the bis goes on. Pve is easy. When I'm specced for it its rare that the rest of the party's damage is equal or close to mine. The only time that ever changed was when TT was awarding my damage to warlocks. Since then not even. That said i don't spend much time pve specced right now.

In pvp things are rough. I can do crazy stuff if no one goes for me but the second most of the other classes pay attention to me its over. I can kill the odd hr if I can get my rotation in before he gets too far into his but if he gets his foxes free sorry but you lose up before engaging its not good. GF is a sure loss unless he's playing on a trackpad. Nothing to be done except trying to dodge his rotation and then jumping over his head to get the cc in. Good luck with that. Sent gwf is going to have a hard time losing. Just has to wait out the dodges or fls at the end of one of them. Then its gg. Haven't been in dom since the mod, just gg. Tr is unlikely to become easy and fighting them before wasn't a picnic. Swap out 2-3 powers and hope no one else arrives. We can kill warlocks handily enough and dcs were ok.

magiquepurse · November 2014

emilemo wrote: »

Can you people come and speak openly telling things straight without the " buff me/nerf them " mentality

Sure thing.

1. My mod 3 HR (obsolete now).

- I pretty much killed everything the game had in Mod 3 and laughed in the face of most people trying to bother me.
Exceptions:
- good permas, took 1 hr to kill, no exaggerating
- GWFs with Kessel managed to proc my SF lol, still died after

I still played HR in Mod 4 and I was powerful even with Mod 3 gear and only a legendary (waters arti).

2. My CW

- OP in group play
- OP vs pugs/lower gear players
- extremely susceptible to die a lot without even being able to retaliate vs properly coordinated premades once I made a mistake and got CCed. Hunted 2/3vs1 in almost all premades, all the time, first target.
- could kill great TRs like 80% of the time
- could kill DCs like all the time (sorry guys)
- could kill almost all GWFs. The decent/geared ones was a 50/50. The best GWF out there could 2 shot me ezy if if they got lucky crits from a single CC, so not much of a chance.
- no chance vs tanky/geared/good HRs. I did however smack the **** outta them in premades by 2vs1ing them fast, since they cannot escape CCs. Could kill 50% Royal Guard HRs even if good, if daily was up, probably even more often. But since almost nobody used RG, yeh :P
- could kill SWs probably 90% of the time
- couldn't kill great/geared GFs. Could kill average skill/geared GFs 90% of the time.

The above for mod 4.

Mod 5? Just from 1vs1 testing, CWs are quite decent(ish). I was able to 50% win against some of the best TRs in the game before SoD/if they didn't use daily. If they used daily I'd lose 90%. vs HR hard if with vorpal, easier if with GPF cause Storm Fury. DC takes 10 mins to kill lol. GWF still a 50% if good, probably like 20% if really good. Still no chance against great GF.

Still OP in a good premade party.

But honestly, who cares lol.

zvieris · November 2014

macjae wrote: »

The problem of Intimidation remains that the damage is based on Power, and also receives the damage bonus from Power, giving increasing returns for stacking Power, whereas every other stat either has diminishing or flat returns (which are inherently diminishing). That also means it gets more imbalanced the better gear a character has (and the more Power can be stacked without too much sacrifice elsewhere).

They should base Intimidation damage off of weapon damage, which has relatively small variation. Something like double weapon damage should put it in a decent spot for both low- and high-end gear, keeping in mind all the potential damage boosts.

GWFs in general have a few issues other than that, related to a number of different game factors, rendering some other GWF playstyles very hard in PvP. Most of all, they need more reliable or consistent ways to deliver damage.

I agree that Intimidation benefiting from power twice is wrong. However, I disagree with your suggested damage being double of weapon damage. That would make intimidation deal the same damage as FLS with the same cooldown but without CC. No-one would use that ever. 300% weapon damage would be much better. Considerably lower damage than IBS but still viable as an AoE power.

Of course, if that were to go through, GWF would need a huge boost to threat generation along with better survivability.

abletto · November 2014

Here's an idea.

Stop buffing/nerfing based on PvP and PvE issues in sync

There's an obvious divide, both between players and balance issues, that affect ONLY PvP or ONLY PvE. And yet the majority of balances are made despite considering how it would affect the other.

Make a new gear tab. This is where you put your PvP gear. All encounters / feats / stats / mechanics are suited and balanced for PvP and functionality only activates inside of a PvP Zone/Instance. Any changes to PvP only change these values. When you're outside of Dom/etc, everything goes back to normal.

It really doesn't take a genius to end the constant cycle of buffing and nerfing. Maybe then they could improve on actual balance issues instead of muddling it all in one pool and fixing one whilst breaking the other. It would open resources to do other things, like better define class roles and add new content outside of the tedium.

zvieris · November 2014

macjae wrote: »

People would still use that. That's roughly the equivalent of the base damage a GWF currently gets at around 5-6k Power, meaning it would be a boost to GWFs with less than 5k Power, a nerf to those with greater Power than that, and GWFs around 5-6k Power wouldn't notice a difference. Intimidation does need a further nerf at the high end where it still does too much damage (in an AoE) for how tanky Sentinels can be. I'd consider Power in that range to be fairly normal, all player gear ranges taken into consideration.

One key point is also that GWF gameplay in PvP should ideally be pushed from delivering massive damage bursts from thin air to actually having to deliver their damage by hitting things. To that end, they need a somewhat better ability to hit things, and less incentive to go for skillfree Intimidation procs. That would mean some adjustments in other areas would need to follow, like either fixing deflecting cc effects altogether or making Takedown prone, giving FLS a shorter cooldown and more damage but a slightly longer casting time and shorter duration, possibly reducing IBS casting time a little, and maybe some touches like giving more access to marks. Other things might be things like not making the PvP set bonus slow the GWF, or adding some other features to certain powers or feats to allow GWFs to output more consistent damage.

I don't even use FLS in PvE because it does so low damage and I got better encounters to fit the 3rd slot. IBS for single target damage, restoring strike for tanking, BF for utility. If the damage would be as low as you suggest I'd have no use for yet another encounter. Because hey, if the intimidation damage is as low as FLS then why the hell should I use it when FLS provides CC for the same cooldown, reach, damage, target count and is much more responsive, harder to dodge? 200% weapon damage is a no go, 300% is perfect.

GWF already has enough abandoned powers. No need to suggest for yet another one.

bvira · November 2014

As a DC I get killed most easily by CW (Ice knife x2 + CC fest + repel out of shield) > TR (even w/o SoD) > GF (w/ KC) > GWF (intimidation crit twice in a row). SW & HR are the easiest to tank atm.

phargyn · November 2014

OK,.... I'm a newb. playing my first and only toon. It is a PvE build HR, stormwarden, trapper, 15k GS. I play PvP with it,.. cause it's all I got, and I need to do the dailies,... I really don't expect much. Pre-mod 5,.. I would be on a winning team (all random - don't do premades) 1 out of 4 times. I would never be at the top of the charts in points or kills, but never at the bottom. I could get a fair number of kills with usually an equal or slightly higher number of deaths. One on one, it was always 50 /50. about the only class that I could pretty much take most of the time was the GWF. Pre-mod 5, I was starting to have some of those almost 30 minute matches that are decided by < 100 points,.. it was fun!

Pre-mod, I could trade kills with most TR's all day,... if they stun me before I can fox = they win,.. If I can fox, melee rotate without being stunned, I win. Cw's same,.. whoever gets the first blow, wins,... or whoever has a lag in their rotation looses. GWF's I could generally dodge and move around,... if they got me proned, it's over.... GF's the same,...

Post-mod 5,... well,.. I die to everything. ok,.. maybe it just seems that way, but that's what got me looking into the forums to see what the general opinions are,... Just came out of a match where one,... that is one toon, TR had 32 kills to 1 death, and could have beaten my entire team without his teammates. Idk his gs,.. he could have just been that high,... but it was ridiculous. I'm seeing it more and more now after the mod,...Huge wins by one side, with the other side hopelessly outgunned within the first 1 to 2 minutes. That just isn't fun (whether I'm on the winning or losing side). Since the mod,... I haven't had any match go longer than 12 minutes,... and I'm on a winning team 1 out of 11 or 12 attempts. I never expect to the top-player in a match. I would like to be a positive help to my team. Since the mod, that isn't happening. I don't even live long enough to be a distraction and help my teammates.

I mean, I'm playing the same toon, the same way. and it's gone from competitive, with most of my opponents better than me, but fun,.... to not even worth the bother,... the match with the TR was a 1000 to 32 victory for their team (not premade). In all my matches since the mod, TR's = I have no chance,.... I can fox before they attack, they miss the first - I melee rotate,.. and they keep coming,... before I can marauder's - I'm stunned & just watch the HP's disappear,... Same with CW's,... I could get a disrupting shot in and stop their rotation, with the cooldown changes,.. can't happen now,... I get cc's,... and literally killed off in 3 or 4 seconds,... I don't know what they did to 'balance the classes',... but right now, things (in a general sense) are for an average player who just plays for fun,.. worse than ever, and definitely NOT fun. Gotten bad enough, that I'm looking for other games to play. IMO, the mix between PvE, PvP, and earning AD's to build up your character just is not yet right. It takes away from the overall game. Anyway,.. you ask for real. Hope it helps,....

critorisaurus · November 2014

I have an 18k SW, PVP is pretty brutal atm. Any class with 19k + gs just disintegrates me. But assuming I meet someone around 18k gs and equally skilled this is usually how it goes. Ranked from hardest 1v1 to easiest.

TR- between dodges and stealth I can't cast my slow animation spells between the brief moments that they're vulnerable. And now they do crazy dmg, so 1v1 I always lose or run away.

HR- Slightly easier then TR, but they heal a lot off my dots, and they do more DPS then I do, so I almost always lose 1v1 or run away.

CW- their CC cast animations are much faster then mine, and they do more dmg then me. So I usually lose to them 1v1 unless I get the jump on them, or I run away.

GWF- Sprint + Unstoppable means I can't kite them or run away, and Intimidation still feels like it does too much dmg. Still I can win maybe 40-50% against them.

GF- move slow and are easy to kite. I usually win 60% 1v1, but they take a long time to kill. So it's usually a stalemate until one of our team members comes to 2v1.

DC- I haven't ran into any equally geared ones 1v1 yet. Seems like it would be a similar long 1v1 or stalemate situation.

So yeah, SWs could use some love. We either lose to most classes 1v1 or can just stalemate them. I love the mechanics, and it feels like a good support class. But it's really reliant on having good teammates to keep the pressure off of you. Which would be fine, exceptPVP in this game is mostly 2 maps with 5v5 fighting over 3 nodes, which creates lots of 1v1 situations, it's pretty bad. SWs were bad at pvp in mod 4, and were nerfed in mod 5, (tempt healing reduction, and TT action point gain reduction) while several classes were buffed. So it would be great for Cryptic to give them some love. SWs could use cast animations speed improvements, more defensive abilities or just more defensive stats through gear or feats. The only thing the class is good at is kill stealing and running away.

vverg · November 2014

SWs were bad at pvp in mod 4, and were nerfed in mod 5, (tempt healing reduction, and TT action point gain reduction) while several classes were buffed. So it would be great for Cryptic to give them some love. SWs could use cast animations speed improvements, more defensive abilities or just more defensive stats through gear or feats. The only thing the class is good at is kill stealing and running away.

I don't agree with what you say, in both mod 4 and 5 I have plenty of fun with my Fury SW in PvP. Since mod 5 Fury SW's are even better. Don't think being 1.5k gs higher than your SW should make a huge difference in PvP ^^

But I understand that you are a Temp.. and agree that Temp SW's are in a weak spot in PvP.

critorisaurus · November 2014

vverg wrote: »

I don't agree with what you say, in both mod 4 and 5 I have plenty of fun with my Fury SW in PvP. Since mod 5 Fury SW's are even better. Don't think being 1.5k gs higher than your SW should make a huge difference in PvP ^^

But I understand that you are a Temp.. and agree that Temp SW's are in a weak spot in PvP.

Yeah I'm Tempt. Maybe I'll give Fury a shot, since they did fix the capstone. Can you 1v1 equally geared TRs and HRs as Fury?

ainarel · November 2014

critorisaurus wrote: »

I have an 18k SW, PVP is pretty brutal atm. Any class with 19k + gs just disintegrates me. But assuming I meet someone around 18k gs and equally skilled this is usually how it goes. Ranked from hardest 1v1 to easiest.

TR- between dodges and stealth I can't cast my slow animation spells between the brief moments that they're vulnerable. And now they do crazy dmg, so 1v1 I always lose or run away.

HR- Slightly easier then TR, but they heal a lot off my dots, and they do more DPS then I do, so I almost always lose 1v1 or run away.

CW- their CC cast animations are much faster then mine, and they do more dmg then me. So I usually lose to them 1v1 unless I get the jump on them, or I run away.

GWF- Sprint + Unstoppable means I can't kite them or run away, and Intimidation still feels like it does too much dmg. Still I can win maybe 40-50% against them.

GF- move slow and are easy to kite. I usually win 60% 1v1, but they take a long time to kill. So it's usually a stalemate until one of our team members comes to 2v1.

DC- I haven't ran into any equally geared ones 1v1 yet. Seems like it would be a similar long 1v1 or stalemate situation.

So yeah, SWs could use some love. We either lose to most classes 1v1 or can just stalemate them. I love the mechanics, and it feels like a good support class. But it's really reliant on having good teammates to keep the pressure off of you. Which would be fine, exceptPVP in this game is mostly 2 maps with 5v5 fighting over 3 nodes, which creates lots of 1v1 situations, it's pretty bad. SWs were bad at pvp in mod 4, and were nerfed in mod 5, (tempt healing reduction, and TT action point gain reduction) while several classes were buffed. So it would be great for Cryptic to give them some love. SWs could use cast animations speed improvements, more defensive abilities or just more defensive stats through gear or feats. The only thing the class is good at is kill stealing and running away.

I'm not sure about Fury build but Temptation - which I am - is the easiest kill in PvP these days among all classes. Even ridiculously so by 11k GS TRs and HRs. With 27% ArPen and 30% Defence they slice me up like I'm GS-less with my 16k. The contrast with my high survivablility in PvE is just depressing.

ainarel · November 2014

phargyn wrote: »

Post-mod 5,... well,.. I die to everything. ok,.. maybe it just seems that way, but that's what got me looking into the forums to see what the general opinions are,... Just came out of a match where one,... that is one toon, TR had 32 kills to 1 death, and could have beaten my entire team without his teammates. Idk his gs,.. he could have just been that high,... but it was ridiculous. I'm seeing it more and more now after the mod,...Huge wins by one side, with the other side hopelessly outgunned within the first 1 to 2 minutes. That just isn't fun (whether I'm on the winning or losing side). Since the mod,... I haven't had any match go longer than 12 minutes,... and I'm on a winning team 1 out of 11 or 12 attempts. I never expect to the top-player in a match. I would like to be a positive help to my team. Since the mod, that isn't happening. I don't even live long enough to be a distraction and help my teammates.

Actually, HRs are stunning-stomping my SW into the pvp grounds about the same as TRs, so it's weird to read how hard it is for a HR.
But with the opinion on how things are I can agree fully. The amount of DPS output for TRs, CWs, many HRs and GWFs is utterly ridiculous in PvP now, especially after mod 5. (DCs are still decent, though there are some unstoppable killers on steroids in BI sets and 20k GS, but it's rare.) Now I can't even get 1 win a day in there, which I was able to score before in 1 out of 10 matches.

Can we get real, like just once for a change ?

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