test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
How to Improve PvP
refracted0dawn
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
As we all know, one of the worst aspects of PvP is the matchmaking system.
It often matches my 15k DCs with a team of 12 to 17k against a team of 11k. That is no fun at all, although "Thanks for the Glory and Seal of Triumph!"
But just as often, it matches me with 5 to 11k characters (yes, the 5k was a Bot) against a team with four characters with 17 to 21k and three to five Legendary items. That is even LESS fun.
It seems to me that part of this problem is that PvP has just a single League Table.
I don't know about American football, but I understand the "World" Series involves baseball players only from America. Is Canada involved?
But the Wimbledon Tennis Championship has a seeded system, where players are matched against equally skilled players such that the number 1 and number 2 seed should face each other in the Final, unless there is a major upset. They cannot face each other in the Quarter Finals, as that would mean that the Quarter Finals are really the Finals, and the Number 2 Seed might then face the Number 11 seed, due to random match-making. And that would make for a rubbish, tedious game.
Imagine! No Bjorn Borg vs McEnroe in 1981! THAT is what Neverwinter's PvP matchmaking creates.
Similarly, British Football has multiple Leagues: Premier Division, with League Division 1, 2, 3 and 4. And there is also the Scottish Premier Division and First Second and Third Division.
So, if PvP had multiple, tiered, seeded League Divisions, there should be more balanced match-making.
Those who take PvP really seriously would have the excitement of being promoted to the next higher League Division, while also facing the possibility of relegation to a lower League Division. Say, after 100 matches (or after a month, or three months) the lowest five or ten players and the highest five or ten players swap League tables?
The rest of us will just have more balanced matches, which are neither boring nor completely soul-destroying. Most level 10s will not be in any League Table at all until they get to level 60, and will then be added to the Bottom or Qualifying Division. People who no longer play will be gradually relegated until they are in the Qualifying Bottom Division.
As it is at the moment, there is just a single League table with multiple pages.
[Edit]*
Something like this illustrates my idea:
NOTE. The Leagues are NOT based on GS, but on Performance over a certain period - Promotion and Relegation would be decided on the Average of either 100 Matches or an Event Timer mechanic of, say, once per month.
Those who tie on Overall Score will be decided by some "Goal Average" of their performance. So those who play a lot will get more points than those who play a little, but the average will be based on their performance in those matches they actually played, however many or few that is.
Those who do not play at all will be relegated, but you will have to play a minimum number of matches per month to avoid being relegated by Default for not participating.
Once in a League, you will only be matched against other characters in the same League as you.
The Neverwinter PvP Legendary Division
This has all those 17k+, multiple Legendary Artifact players who stomp all over 12k Teams and have a huge number of Wins, few Losses and lots of points.
The Neverwinter PvP Premier Division
This is for characters not quite good enough to get into the Legendary Division. Maybe a lot of skill, Black Ice gear etc, but no Legendaries so their GS holds them back a bit. But remember - getting into any League depends ONLY on performance, NOT your Gear or GS.
The Neverwinter PvP Epic Division
This will be what most PvPers will aim for - you do not get into this just by having Epic Gear, but by having Epic Performance over 100 matches, or based on your average for the month or whatever.
The Neverwinter PvP First Division
This will have characters who may have decent gear, experience and GS, but their performance does not qualify them for the Epic Division. This will also have characters who may have Epic gear, may have Rank 10 Enchants, may even have some Legendary Artifacts, but their performance is so <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-poor that they cannot get promoted to the Epic Division. It would also have a lot of low to mid-Geared characters whose players actually have a lot of skill.
The Neverwinter PvP Second Division
This will have characters who may have decent gear, experience and GS, but their performance does not qualify them for the First Division. May have a lot of low geared characters with a lot of skill, or well-geared characters with a little skill.
The Neverwinter PvP Third Division
And so on...
All new level 60s wll be in The Neverwinter PvP Bottom Division.
Maybe there is a better, less pejorative name for it... The Neverwinter PvP Qualifying Division? You have to match up in this Division to get into the Fourth Division, or whatever is the lowest, depending on how many active players there are.
I think this will really be a lot more fair, a lot more balanced and also a lot more fun.
It should also not take an hour to find a balanced match, as the system will have a smaller pool of players as it will look at the separate Leagues and not the entire table and run cross-matching alorithms on EVERYONE in the PvP queue. It will just match up people in the same Division, and hopefully spread the classes on each team a bit more evenly.
Post edited by refracted0dawn on
0
Comments
When gentlemancrush got asked a PvP question in the DEV livestream about class balance, he basically told the players to blow it out their a**.
PvP in this game will suck hard unless they attract more players to pvp in the game. And unfortunately they have all the players they can get with the current pay to win system they adore. There are no more people on the planet for them to take from with the current model
Devs don't care but we do.
For example, sometimes you are in a match that ended like 1000-100, but only queued for 1 min, one fix could be make you wait for at least 3 min to PvP, with more people in the queue the system could make a better match.
I can take off my gear, match up with 5k group and take my gear back on, bam...
I also can create twink sitting on 10k GS and kill noobs who wouldn't have a chance
the match up system as it is is the most effective system they can use
pretty much what abecassis said is on point
it's been mentioned, suggested and beaten to death since a lonnnnnng time ago
matchmaking is broken, but it's working as intended
i don't know if it's the devs to blame, or the head honchos, who knows really, the sad fact of the matter is this matchmaking is terrible and it's here to stay, i gave up, i just do a couple of matches per day hoping to get a good balanced team, i just ignore or afk the ones where it's 10ks vs 20ks
i've mentioned how if they keep adding gear/boons/content, it's just going to get insanely worse, with 30 and 40ks going against 10ks
not a single f*** was given
i don't know why people continue to give this incredibly ignorant argument, stop, it's not valid
you queue up for a match and your current gear is locked, simple, don't allow switching
and no, it's not the most effective system they can use, stop being blind, not a personal attack, but come on
i somewhat agree in the sense that matching based on ranking/domination success is a good concept, but it's completely ruined when it "gives" up and matches you against 20ks because "omg i dont wannannnanana waiiiitttttt any longer"
How about changing equipment is disabled after you queue. Gear switching problem solved.
Make tiers of GS.
6k-10k
8k-12k
10k-14k...etc.
The highest a 6k gs player would see would be 10k gs, but you couldn't sit right at 10k GS and be assured to be top of the heap either as the 10k gs would have a chance at getting in a 8k-12k gs group.
As for low level twinkage, you can't stop the kitten punters of the world, some people just go for easy mode so they can think they are good. Disable perfect/greater enchants in low level pvp would give the newbs a chance but the kitten punters will always find a way.
To the DEVS: If you look at other massively successful games you will see that PVP is THE driving factor behind the profits.
League of Legends is close to a billion dollars on their game.
If you want to gain market share you will stop ignoring PVP.
Stop worrying about balancing PVP and just add new content.....did you ever think maybe the PVP players always complain about this class or that class being OP because they have nothing else to talk about?
You can make rewarding, awesome pve content all day long and once it is completed it is old and boring and wont hold people's attention.
Make a few more PVP maps. Add a few "challenge circles" or "battle arenas" or w/e you want to call them in PE and IWD where 2 people can duel. Make a premade party list where you can find and challenge other parties. This content will get played over and over again, UNLIKE your PVE updates. Face it folks, without a strong PVP mode this game will never draw like other games. If the devs think that they can make as much money off just PVE updates, then they are welcome to it.
from my point of view you're the one with ignorant arguments. If someone has 20kGS, she/he either farmed their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off or bought some zen (which makes players like you play the game for free) so why should be someone with 20k GS punished over their effort? Either way they deserve edge over other players which didn't farm hard enough or pay nothing. So try to be little more reasonable
Did not read my post?
That is not how the European Football League system works.
Matches are not decided on whether the team has aluminium or mithril studs in their boots. Or on whether they wear cotton or silk shirts.
They are decided on the DIVISION they are in.
So, we start with a PvP Legendary Division League Table that is empty.
[Edit - changed this from Premier Division, as I think Legendary Division should be the top Tier]
After, say, 100 matches (or an Event Timer type of thing, like 1 Calendar Month), the top 500 or whatever characters get promoted to the Legendary* Division. They can now be matched only against other characters that are in that Division - whether they have 17k+ GS and several Legendary items or not.
Changing Gear before or after WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE. As the match-making is decided on who is in the PvP Legendary Division League Table. Go in naked, if you like, you will be matched against other people from the same League Division as you.
I just knocked up a spread sheet to play with some figures, and some new parameters on how points are awarded would also help to improve things, encourage playing your class and promote team work.
People always refer to PvP as Player vs Player.
But it is actually PARTY vs PARTY.
At the moment I was looking at something that does not rely purely on Kill ratio, as that favours certain classes over others and is inherently unfair. It also has people chasing off-point and getting killed instead of promoting Team Work.
And there are two scoring systems - the one that decides personal scores during the match, and then the one that calculates your position in the League Table. The problem is that there is only a single League Table from which matches are drawn.
For the League Table, something like this seems better:
Assists and Raises happen far less often than Kills and Kicks, and are more dangerous and difficult to do in melee. So having more points for those makes sense. Especially for Classes with a low Kill potential who naturally tend to help others - like DCs. GWFs will be charging off for the next kill, so don't bother Kicking or Raising, in my experience.
And Capping Points is what makes the Team win, so dying to hold a point should be rewarded.
And, with better matching, you will get less disillusionment and frustration at all parts of the Gear spectrum.
And the truly dedicated PvPers will still pay 10,000 Zen to Insta-Boon their new characters when a new race or class comes out. :rolleyes:
Position in the League and Promotion or Relegation will still be handled by Points, Wins, Losses, Kills, Deaths, Assists, Kicks, Raises, #Caps etc. And some sort of "goal average" to see who goes up or down.
But I would like to see something that give Clerics some sort of scoring, such as 1 point per 1000 hp Healed or something. And a parameter that could be measured such as Buffing and Debuffing would also help, as that also contributes to a Win.
This is the basic creative idea. The Developers would have to Develop it into a fully functioning system. After all, that's what Developers do.
ok, this makes sense
I don't get this, PVP is short for player versus player, what else should I refer to when I use pvp?
no it's not in this game
I don't see your point, pvp is about killing other players mainly and so it won't be boring there is secondary objective usually domination type of flag carrying type either way killing players to achieve that goal is the point of pvp
well come up with concrete values and concrete mechanics to show that it's better than ongoing system. Instead of saying to do it something like this come with an idea how exactly should it look like...
Have you ever won a match? Party vs Party Domination is about a Party Dominating the Battle Field by working together to Capture and Hold the Points - it is not about killing enemies per se.
And you do not kill other "players". You kill other "Characters". It's a game. It's not real.
The combat is a necessary side effect of the goal of Dominaton and holding the points, and so incidentally involves killing other characters to achieve that goal. I did not understand this myself until I got my first character to level 60, and even then it took another month before it clicked. I now have 12 level 60 characters.
My teams have sometimes lost matches by 600-1000, even though we were the top 5 ranked in the in-match Scoreboard - but we lost because we failed to Dominate the Points. Killing other characters is irrelevant in PvP. The gear rewards I got were useless and usually only for a different class.
And the worst thing is when we are winning, my team chase the enemy off-point and get killed fighting on worthless waste ground. This is very often a feint retreat, but getting some people to grasp that is very difficult. They go chasing off, injured, and then all get killed in an ambush. My character then gets killed because my AC cannot fight alone with no one to heal and buff, and we lose 1 AND 2 because the fools on my team thought they'd win the match by chasing the enemy to 3, when they really needed some healing and buffing from me. And then, they charge from the camp fire without their +1 bonus and so the same thing again!
If they had paused for a few moments, we'd have won. I am getting quite sick of people throwing the match because they do not understand how it works, or do not understand how to play with a good Healer Cleric build.
PvP is is about TEAM WORK, not Solo Glory Combat. IWD may be different, but I have not participated in that yet.
But for PvP Domination, you seem to have then entire concept <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-backwards.
yeah so by same logic players should just walk around other players to capture their point and them run back to capture it back.
oh really?...
Quite a lot of people do it wrong. They think it is about Kills and personal points on the in-match Scoreboard. And they always lose.
Unless they hopelessly outclass the other team. Then, it does not really matter what you do. you cannot fail to win unless you just stand off-point and let them hit you.
When my AC can fend off a TR AND a GWF and kill them both, because they are "7k scrubs" with no skill or experience, they will have no chance against any other team with 60% of my GS.
But that is why my suggestion is such a good idea - those guys and I will never meet, until they rise in the League table.
The PvP Legendary Division would be a good start.
Then, they could introduce the PvP Premier Division for people not good enough to get into the Legendary Division.
Then, the PvP Epic Division
Then, the PvP First, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth.... Division etc.
All new players at level 60 with be in the PvP Bottom Division.
I think it would work and work well. Cryptic have the skills to develop this. But it depends on whether they have the inclination or the time. Whatever the Creative, Design and Development team want to do, they still have to take their orders from the Grey Suit Corporate Bread Heads. I think Crytic would like to do anything that improves the game. But PWE will probably be more interested in the Bottom Line and not want to "rock the boat"..
C'est la vie. 'Twas ever thus.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...
Sorry, are you actually a bit dim, pretending to be a bit dim, trying to Troll, or have you just never come across the expression "per se" before?
Do you not know what it means?
you see your problem is that you think your way is the right way, but people play pvp for different reasons some play
-for fun (my estimate very few)
-to get some AD out of dailies and/or honor to gear up
-to kill other players and by doing so proving that their build is better (that's the reason players are so eager to farm hard or pay money for equip) and they are looking for a good fight
-to kill other players to get more kills and better standing
-to win the match
you can't say any one of those reasons are wrong, players just chase different goals. I for one think that standing at a point "defending it" from none for few minutes is boring altho a great help for a team, so I don't really care who wins as long as there is a good fight or once a while it's good to be the most powerful player in pvp and just slaughter everyone
So, that would be a "No", then?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/per+se
So, with my system, you can disappear into the Elitist Neverwinter PvP Legendary Division. Then, you'd never again ruin anyone else's game by robbing them of the Glory and Seals they need to get the Profound gear to enable them to compete with you. You would also get a real challenge, so if you wanted to mindlessly kill everything in sight with no thought of a team win, fill yer boots! You sound like you don't need the Glory or Seals anyway, so you're not spoiling it for anyone else
What's not to like?
I play for fun; because it IS fun when it is balanced and well-matched. I LOL when I get killed by a clever player or after a good battle more than when I kill the enemy. I also play for Glory and Seals and the gear I can get with them. But it's only fun when it's balanced and close run, with a team that knows what it is doing. The strategy if you are a TR is completely different to a DC, but the Team strategy is pretty much the same. The TR needs the team to stay away from 1 and 3, the DC needs the team to stay with her, or she cannot do her job and they will die. Generally.
Strategy and Tactics will change with party composition and how powerful members of both teams are. Sometimes, you cannot help but wipe the floor with the enemy; other times, you cannot stop them wiping the floor with YOU. But throwing the match by playing badly when we could have won is just irritating. Not as irritating as being Perma-Stunned by a melee warrior from 30 ft away when he only has a 6 ft weapon, or being Perma-Freezed and killed by a CW with half your gear score. Those are basic class imbalances the Devs will have to tweak in weekly patches. But the first step to having less polarised PvP matches would be introducing a league system.
I'm sorry, but you are doing it again; I cannot tell.
That kind of elitist nonsense would do nothing to show anything about any build. All members of both teams would have to have the same level of gear for that to work. And it would be extremely improbable that the only determining factor would be a difference in the build, rather than a difference in GS or skill. I suspect only a GWF would want to do something as lame as this. But, then again, The Neverwinter PvP Legendary Division awaits! Bye bye! Fill yer boots!
Again, you must not need any Glory, Seals or gear, so the sooner they create The Neverwinter PvP Legendary Division for people like you, the better for the rest of us. The "Standing", or League Position, within each Division would not depend only on kills and wins vs losses. It would factor in more parameters to determine your position. This would give ALL classes a decent chance of having a similar score to whatever Over-Powered Flavour of the Month is in vogue at the moment; even if they do not get as many kills.
Unless... you actually ENJOY killing 7k scrubs and 5k Bots? But, no... that could not make you feel like a Big Shot, surely?
But if you were in the correct Division, those Kills and Standing would actually MEAN something - not a lot, and absolutely nothing to me, but they would mean SOMEthing. Ruining a match for your team when they are trying to get Glory and Seals just because one member wants the most individual kills and has the gear to do it, is pretty selfish and immature, after all.
Along with FUN, this is the ONLY reason to play PvP for normal, well-adjusted, sane people not suffering from some sort of Obsessive/Compulsive disorder or some other condition - masochistic fatalism, maybe? Who wants to get pulverised over and over and over again? And who wants to "Win" with 1000:0 wipes all the time?
I really hope a Dev studies this thread and has a good think about it. Feel free to PM me at any time, guys.
I kinda like your ideas but I'm a bit confused about the following statement:
And then you say that this is the top division but non competitive gameplay. At least you said it's the right division for that liliadna guy (who's obviously not interested in any competitive NW:O pvp match). How so? Why do put all BiS players into one bracket and call it a non competitive elitism division?
I like your idea that you said that someone has to win to reach the next division and so on. That's kinda nice and could work out very well for beginners and lesser geared or casaul players (question is: how will the matchmaking works if there are peeps from multiple divisions in one party?). I also would like to see some reward for competitive gameplay. A bracket which forces you to queue up with a rainbow team only - like a ladder system and the team (or the first five or whatever to make it fair) with the most wins (e.g. 1 or 2 months of ladder) will get some reward. This would make it a bit more attractive.
We already tried to set up a couple of PvP Tournaments but since it is very hard to force rules it will get out of control pretty fast. That's where the Dev's needs to put some work in (e.g. elixirs). ofc NW:O can't reach ESL level (it's an MMO where you've to farm your gear so there will always be a difference) but it still can be a very good PvP game.
Neverwinter has good potential for PvP b/c of the domination gameplay (which itself is working pretty well) - it just needs some adjustments.
So yea - keep your ideas up. Maybe you'll be heared (one day).
Oh and about FotM:
Those builds mostly developed by PvP players - for obvious reasons. There's no shame to use those builds if you totally focus to win matches with your team b/c it's the best build after the last patch. That's in every PvP game - even in PvE (not as extreme noticeable tho').
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
I'm not sure I understand what you mean or how you think I said that. Surely, the Legendary Division would contain the most high-end, competitive people out there? Especially if it is true they pay a fortune to gear and Boon up their new characters?
Imagine the entire table of rankings and standings we already have. The Legendary Division would have only the most successful characters in it; whether that is because they have very highly skilled players controlling them, have a killer build with lots of synergies or just have massively high gear scores but not much skill. Or any combination in between.
They could only get into the Legendary Division based on their performance. So, once in the Legendary Division, they can hammer away at each other to their heart's content and chase Leader board rankings like they do with the current, single League Table we already have. But they would only be matched against other players in the Legendary Division. They can play however they like - go for personal glory, kill rate, play like a team, or just strive to be number 1 on the Leader board. Whatever they like.
This is basically what they do now, but they can get matched against people who are hopelessly outclassed by them, which is definitely no fun for the low gear teams and cannot be much fun for the Legendary players.
I am sure they are competitive players but, as iliadna says, they may have different goals other than winning a team game so they get their Daily Glory and Seals from a Domination Win. They may not even need any Glory or Seals as far as I know, as they have nothing to spend them on - except maybe more Artifacts to upgrade.
But at the lower, 10 to 15k levels, people like me like a Team Win as it is terribly frustrating to lose a match from a 200 point lead because your team are complete buffoons and play like they do not have a clue how the game works, run off point to chase the enemy and then fight on open ground and get killed with absolutely no benefit to anyone, including themselves, and then we lose Home and Mid while they are waking up at the camp fire.
Also, I like a Team Win because we get more Glory, and I need the Glory and Seals so I can upgrade my Grim gear to Profound. And I am also a team player, and as a DC is a team support class, that is the role I play. PvP should not just be for over-powered GWFs chasing pure Kill Rates. That is inherently unfair and unbalanced as the classes cannot perform that role equally well, even if identically geared. My TR is happy to die defending a node, or contesting a node, as long as she stops the other team scoring from it. That is her job, that is how she contributes to a Team Win and TRs SHOULD score more points from Caps and Assists than from Kills. She is no use on 2, unless she can sneak up and just not get noticed. But as soon as she is hit, she is immobilsed and then dead. It's like her Defence and Deflection are working in reverse - she takes +75% damage instead of Deflecting 75% of the incoming damage. >8o
But as long as my team knows what they are doing and defend Home and Mid, we will win the match and get more Glory for better gear, because enemy teams often send two or three to kill my TR on their node, which means they will lose 2 - as long as my team has not already died chasing them to 3 and so losing 2 en route.
You raise a good point about Guild Teams - if four are in the Legendary Division, and one is still in the Epic Division, they cannot be matched together from a PuG queue. But they could form a party with the Captain being one of the Legendary Division members, and then he chooses which Domination Division Queue the team wants to enter. It would be just like going through a dungeon door for a Solo Delve - "Enter with my Current Team". But if they always play together, they will have the same number of wins and losses, so would probably all be in the same Division anyway.
Ideally, there would be a separate League for Guild Teams, but Neverwinter is not primarily PvP-focused, and I do not know how long the Guild Teams actually stay together before moving on or breaking up. But it should not be a problem if they can enter as a team.
Well, I agree and this is the thing. The new PvE content is not really "content" - it is just skirmish-type event things with another RNG Gear Grind. I have 12 level 60s and do not even have any Black Ice gear yet. But I WOULD like to see a new Campaign that has a new Villain, with a level 60+ requirement (say, 70 Power Points spent and a 16k GS) for Supra-Epic dungeons leading to Ultra Epic and Legendary dungeons.
Most top tier players complain that PvE content has been far too easy for them for a long, long time, and that the latest modules have been nothing but an RNG Grind. So all there is left for them is PvP. As this game is mainly PvE-focused, they should have more PvE content - proper, real content.
But in the video with Mr Myers and Akromatic trying out the DC changes, Myers said that new PvE content and dungeons is difficult to do. That is probably because that sort of content is more creative and needs some sort of story line. Plus, probably a lot of new art, although I would not mind them recycling environments I have not seen for months and months, like players do when they make Foundry quests.
But the latest modules just need number crunching and a Tree of Achievements you can rise up. But running the same old same old over and over and over again must be quite soul-destroying for a lot of people who never get their drops. Maybe they should hold back on the module development for a while and look more at fixing bugs, fixing PvP, properly balancing the classes and then release some new PvE content? That will at least give the Top Tier time to get their RNG drops and the rest of us to catch up in Module 3 and 4!
I never played Module 1; I don't even know if I can any more. I started with Module 2 and killed Valindra long ago. I did not progress with Ice Wind Dale as I was more interested in getting my newer level 60s through everything else first, and doing PvP with my DCs and TRs. The Profound gear from PvP is more than good enough for most PvE content, although I have no Black Ice gear yet, which might be better than Profound. I gear up with PvP, so Team Wins matter for the Seals.
But they would not need to keep nerfing PvP and inadvertently wrecking PvE (if that is what is actually happening) if they play-tested better. They would need a team of volunteers who would not transfer their own characters to the Test Server, but would be able to create a level 60 character ON the test server and get all the Feats and Boons etc and a full set of top tier gear.
The only way to scientifically test any changes to the code is to have a level playing field of equally geared, feated and, hopefully, equally skilled players testing different builds; and taking the average of at least 100 PvP matches and dungeon runs with 100 play testers.
But, looking at the DC and TR thread, an awful lot of the feedback is from people who have never even tested their character on the Preview Shard. Devs should be able to know who these people are and ignore their "feedback". A lot if it is just moaning against the unknown and railing against change (I have done a little bit of that myself), but the only thing that matters is real play testing.
It's detrimental to the game to call, EG, for nerfs against the HR because your 8k TR got train-wrecked by a 17k HR - that does not mean that the HR is OP - it means HE HAD BETTER GEAR THAN YOU! What do you expect, guys? :rolleyes:
So, again, a League Table for PvP would iron out a lot of these problems and also help avoid nerfing PvE for those sensible, sane people who steer clear of PvP.
oh what's not to like? hmmm this one's sooooo easy :]
you would create a group of let's say 500 people (your own suggestion) within this league
for pvp you need 10 of those players online at the same time and all queue for pvp at the same time. They would wait for hours (or dozens of minutes at best) to get into a queue
and since you revealed you're the "for fun" playing (I would translate it as not as skilled) pvp player you are suggesting this whole system only cos you want to punish those who have better skill/gear as you do and you constantly lose and it's driving you mad
so again why should good players get punished (by longer queue)? that doesn't make sense to any sane person
Liliadna, I did not come here to start a row or argue with people, so try and be a little less hostile and a little more objective.
I'm trying to suggest a system that will be more fair, balanced and fun for every body. I really do not think that five people with characters of 18 to 21k GS and two to five Legendaries each are really having "fun" crushing an 11 to 15k Team 1000:0. I know for a fact that it is no fun to be on the 11k side and matched against that Legendary team.
OK, that's a good point. I don't know how many people are on the PvP Leader Board. I know that there are dozens and dozens of pages, but I do not think the characters are numbered, so I cannot see the total number of characters on the board.
And, of course, they are not all single accounts - there will be multiple characters from the same account. I have 2 DC and 4 TR up there, for example. I do not know where my other eight level 60s are because I geared them up with Blues and Mulhorand and did PvP four times at level 60 to get all the AD and Glory from Rhix, the 8000 AD from the Lord Protector and then kept playing until they got a Win for the Glory and Seals from the Domination Battle Master.
My DO already has Profound everything, so he has not played PvP for a few months as I took my AC out of retirement.
The actual number to go into the Legendary Division would be for Cryptic to decide. But make it 1500, or 2000. Whatever it takes. Promotion to the Legendary Division will be based on performance, not gear, so those who are not playing a particular character will not get that character into the Legendary Division any way.
But I think we'd all have more fun with more balanced matches.
And would it be technically impossible that if there are only four Legendary Players on-line to start a Domination Match with two teams of two?
Or One vs One, for those REALLY interested in proving that they have the BISest Gear, the Uberest-Build and the Maddest Skills?
You do not have fun when you play PvP? :eek:
Then... why do you do it?
So you are "skilled", but have no fun? Or are you just Uber-Geared, and are mistaking your damage procs against a 7k Green character for actual skill?
I don't know why you would "translate" "having fun" in PvP as "not skilled". I could "translate" your attitude as "not sane or stable", playing a game that gives you no enjoyment. It does seem a little irrational.
I am quite skilled when playing my 15k DCs and fairly skilled with my 12k TRs.
My TRs have killed GFs and GWFs one on one, because I played better then them, not because I out-geared them; my MI does better close-up than my WK. I think they were over-confident that they would take me down easily, but I dodged and stealthed and whacked at them then used Dailies etc, and kept out of their reach. Neither are Perma-Stealthers. In fact, I speced them for more Combat Advantage when coming OUT of Stealth, rather than staying in Stealth as long as possible. The GWF and GF were more or less geared just as as well as me, but from the way they played they were inexperienced, unskilled "noobs".
I am not very skilled with my CW, two HRs or two GFs as I have a lot less experience of playing them. My GWF Halfling Swordmaster did surprisingly well. She is Feated and Geared for Defence and Deflection, but has enchants for Power, Critical Strike and Armour Penetration. Only Mulhorand and Blues, like most of my ALTS.
But my Halfling 10k AC does very poorly compared with my Tielfing 15k AC. You know, I am thinking "Gear Score" rather than "skill" as an explanation for that.
I am suggesting this system only because it would be fairer, more balanced, less frustrating and more fun for everyone. I do not want to "punish" anyone at all.
And where do you get the idea I constantly lose? Have you not read my posts? I often win. You do not get Grim and Profound gear and a Rank 93 Blood Crystal Raven Skull by "constantly" losing. You would never be able to get the Seals of Triumph, for a start.
But it is more fun to win in a fair and honourable fight, not by being teamed against characters who are hopelessly outclassed by my team. The reverse is also true. That is what the thread is about, and that is ALL it is about.
As I have always said, I don't mind losing if it is a fun and fair fight. In fact, seeing someone really cleverly outfox me and take me down makes me LOL! I appreciate their skill and tactics. You can search all my forum posts on PvP since February this year and you will see that I have always said that.
The only things I would "nerf" in PvP are:
1. Melee classes perma-stunning from a distance of 30 feet when they have weapons only 3 to 6 feet long - max distance should be 10 feet for a GF, 15 feet for a GWF. They have various Powers for closing the gap, but Perma-Stun from medium missile range should not be one of them;
2. 9k CWs Perma-Freezing and killing a 15k DC in 3 seconds, or just locking out my keyboard PERMANENTLY until I am dead. That is just broken.
I do not think Perma-Stun, Daze, Freeze, Immobilise or any similar mechanic belongs in PvP any more than Prone did. Or Perma-Stealth.
Again, you are confusing "good" players with Uber-Geared. If you think you are that good in terms of Pure Skill, why not make a video of your character wearing 7k Green gear with no Enchants, Companions or Artifacts destroying a 21k, Five Legendary CW one on one? Or any other Legendary class from your Guild or On-Line friends. Why not go to IWD, take off all your gear and show us how good you really are?
It is the mis-matching of 21k Legendaries against 7k beginners which this thread is about.
And there is no need to have a longer queue time. Let Legendary Division characters go in to Domination 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc. And have a larger pool of characters in the Legendary Division. If 500 is not enough, make it 2000. Whatever. Cryptic can work that out as they have all the data behind the scenes.
You seem to be getting bogged down in irrelevant details which are just numbers I threw out to illustrate a general point. Try to see the Bigger Picture.
I am sure of that, this certainly proves your not hostile or aggressive attitude
everyone have same opportunity to get 18k which is not that hard (like 6 months for casual player if it is your first character), you just need lvl 8 enchants which are fairly cheap and T2 pvp/black ice armor. Difference between 18 and 20k character isn't game breaking. If you are unable to get that with your characters, maybe you should focus on one instead of playing 5 at once
don't you see that it doesn't solve anything? any number will lead to that they will have longer queue and the question is why? and you better not say cos it's fair... it's certainly not fair for them
get your character to 20k+ and since none could have more you pretty much be "balanced"
1vs1 domination match? you're kidding right?
having fun and playing for fun is different. You mentioned some football or something earlier. Do you think those pro teams doesn't enjoy the game? But I am sure they doesn't play "for fun". Those who play on backyard of their house with friends play for fun
pretty much you are, you want those players who will kill you easily unable to be put on same fight as you
you can get grim gear by doing GG pve and profound by losing in pvp and sometimes when put in group with 20k players a win, which doesn't require a shred of your skill, just participation
artifacts are leveled by pve content, no pvp skill needed
apples and oranges...
if I dedicated my time (or time and money-you can't buy pvp armor) to get to 20k, that means I deserve an edge over people who didn't. If this wasn't purpose of the game there would be no equip and all characters of same class would have same stats, that would be "fair", but mostly boring
so what once a while you fail against players who played longer, it happens in all MMOs, don't you think it would be ridiculous if you put 5 years of your time to draw your character to perfection and someone who just started the game would have a shot on killing you?
most of all you still didn't come with concrete system so show me this bigger picture of your, your ideas have been so vague
You SHOULD have longer queue times, because there are fewer WORTHY opponents around for you to face.
What you are really saying is, "I want short queue times so that I can repeatedly bash unworthy opponents over and over".
They try to have Individual combat and we get killed.
It seens a PvP group shouls act as a team supporting each other
Urlord