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A Piece of Advice on the Issues of Tr changes
mojorat
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 90
I noticed a number of doom and gloom posts both here and on the test server changes opinion thread. As somone who has played alot of mmo fro EQ to EVE Online i thouhgt i would offer some advice that might make this easier for people.
First, No matter what you need to reemember this is a game. there is no reason to get emotionally volotile. You always have the option to play or not play. Sure, it represents time and effort on our parts as we play but that involvement is always optional. sometimes its good to just take a deep breath.
Two, there is no grand plot on the part of the Dev's to bring the Tr down. On the other end of the game side of things it is a business. TR's being no fun to play is bad business and any DEv advocating changes to make a class not fun to play would loose his Job.
But mojorat, Why do they ignore so many issues you might ask? Best i can tell is they solve game design issues in chunks. Stuff that doesnt effect their revenue stream and does not get fixed in bits is fixed in packages. I asssume there is a business or management reason for this, but i dont know what it is.
Thirdly, none of the problems faced by TR on NWO are specific to NWO, every mmo i have played a Rogue character on has ahd these problems.. Wow.. most successful MMO to date? when i returned for the later half of the second expansion I was being out damaged by pladins. The specifics of high damage, low survivability with, small control seems to be one alot of games cant get right.
Lastly, Remember the Test shard experience is an aspect of crowd sourcing and information feedback. There are deliberat ways that information is created and processed and facilitated. This means a number of things, 1)Some powers will b deliberately an initially presented as over powered, others will be deliberately prsented as under powered. It creates information and exposes percieved area of weakness. 2) none of the changes on the test shard are final. 3) It may be that some of the problems your experiencing ont he test server are a result of changing playstyles. This unfortunately may be soemtghing that is un-avoidable.
Ultimately, none of the above says there are no problems, i /dislike/ the process they use here to solve problems. But the base Idea of alot of the changes on TEst at least for Saboteur and Executioner are fairly solid.. scoundrel not so much.. but i guess we'lls ee how it all goes.
Anyhow I hope this is remotely helpful to people.
First, No matter what you need to reemember this is a game. there is no reason to get emotionally volotile. You always have the option to play or not play. Sure, it represents time and effort on our parts as we play but that involvement is always optional. sometimes its good to just take a deep breath.
Two, there is no grand plot on the part of the Dev's to bring the Tr down. On the other end of the game side of things it is a business. TR's being no fun to play is bad business and any DEv advocating changes to make a class not fun to play would loose his Job.
But mojorat, Why do they ignore so many issues you might ask? Best i can tell is they solve game design issues in chunks. Stuff that doesnt effect their revenue stream and does not get fixed in bits is fixed in packages. I asssume there is a business or management reason for this, but i dont know what it is.
Thirdly, none of the problems faced by TR on NWO are specific to NWO, every mmo i have played a Rogue character on has ahd these problems.. Wow.. most successful MMO to date? when i returned for the later half of the second expansion I was being out damaged by pladins. The specifics of high damage, low survivability with, small control seems to be one alot of games cant get right.
Lastly, Remember the Test shard experience is an aspect of crowd sourcing and information feedback. There are deliberat ways that information is created and processed and facilitated. This means a number of things, 1)Some powers will b deliberately an initially presented as over powered, others will be deliberately prsented as under powered. It creates information and exposes percieved area of weakness. 2) none of the changes on the test shard are final. 3) It may be that some of the problems your experiencing ont he test server are a result of changing playstyles. This unfortunately may be soemtghing that is un-avoidable.
Ultimately, none of the above says there are no problems, i /dislike/ the process they use here to solve problems. But the base Idea of alot of the changes on TEst at least for Saboteur and Executioner are fairly solid.. scoundrel not so much.. but i guess we'lls ee how it all goes.
Anyhow I hope this is remotely helpful to people.
Post edited by mojorat on
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Comments
How dare you.
Wholeheartedly agreed.
Personally, I agree with this direction of change and I like the general implications. However, I see a lot of problems in this specific attempt by the developers to bring it to life ... but if you think about it, ofcourse there are problems... bugs, oversights, plain wrong design in some cases.
How could there NOT be problems? This is a totally different direction of combat that seeks to fundamentally change how us TRs treat and use stealth. Since the beginning of this game and more than a full year into it we've been using the same basic mechanism of combat that evolved into the mod2 style permas and semipermas. Upto mod4 there has been no changes to that basic mechanism of combat... and now, the developers brought in something totally different, changed ALL the paths... and this is their FIRST ATTEMPT to see if it works.
Expecting the preview, on their first try, to be perfect, is like expecting a babe to start walking upright from the get-go. The preview is literally a preview. We get to test it out and give advice and feedback concerning how the new direction they envisioned can work.
Play testing is largely (if not all) about patience.
It's stealth.
In every game that features it, stealth is always such a powerful weapon, that in order to "balance" characters/classes with stealth it always takes a lot of time. If other traits are too powerful, then the stealth class becomes OP. If the game designers fear this too much and make other traits weaker, then the stealth class becomes underpowered. It's very difficult in all cases.
Very good advice.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This is our chance to get the TR we want, so instead of trolling, let's give our best to get there.
Sadly, the reading comprehension of some of the other replies appears to be lacking. I was trying to avoid addressing any of the specific issues. The problem is that when dealing with this stuff there is so much.. confetti flying around that it creates alot of false data. In mmo in general players deal with change like the Dev's kicked their puppy.
For the record, i think they got the playstyle of the new Saboteur almost perfect, i really enjoyed it even not using gloaming cut. Its the other two feat paths that have run into the giant walll of defense issues.
The thing i dont know though is wether the initial ronds of changes, are all pre-planned or if the successive stages that we have started on are in response to players. I think they could deliberately, set up the initial tests to directly expose known issues that are suspected then close them. Its potentially a better plan than trying to get it right in one go then edge them closely into place because it creates more information.
I hope it all works out, i have a ton of game goals i cant complete on my Tr til the over all issues are put into play live.
IKR?
I've been tempted more than once to specifically refute all the blind, mass garbage flying out of some people, but managed to simply ignore them in most cases for the sake of the Feedback thread. If a change in a game-world effects them so much, I'm almost afraid to see what they will react like if a real-life change ever occurs.
OH NOESSSS!! IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!
...and ofcourse, no tantrum is complete without the classic "threat of quitting the game". LOL
Mostly agreed, but all three paths currently do have a weakness, which IMO needs a more radical approach from the developers to solve. In case of MIs, the existence of a very powerful tool -- the Gloaming Cut -- as well as the defensive tool of ITC, seems to a bit "cloud" the judgement on this reality for most players, but in my case, as a WK, these weaknesses are very evidently shown. One of the reasons which I consider the WK as a better testbed for the Preview.
It is usually like this. For WKs, all our melee at-wills are basic ones, SF and DF. Our ranged encounter, CoS, is just as limited as those of MI -- only 8 shots. Our Paragon at-will DHS, is a very powerful weapon, but it holds the innate weakness of DoTs -- it takes time.
Now, most often the situation you meet, now that:
(1) stealth is tweaked
(2) at-wills from stealth is discouraged
(3) more aggressive use of encounters, especially from stealth, is encouraged
...is that you actively make the best use of your encounters, and path/tree feats to deal initially a satisfying amount of damage. The problem is, as mentioned in (2) and (3), the best sources of damage are now from encounters. So after a while, your encounters are almost all in cooldown, you're out of stealth, and the weapons in your hands are CoS and DHS.
...CoS is fired off and gone soon, and the only weapon now is DHS which ticks once per second. You have three, four, five, perhaps more lieutenant/elite grade mobs in front of you. What do you do?
This, is what some people are mentioning when they say they can't survive, and the changes are 'trash'. In my case I've practiced Sab path long enough to be able to manage IWD Heroic Encounters alone and still make it through, even with a WK with no powerful at-will like GC or defense tool like ITC -- but honestly, the transition was not a seemless one. It took a lot of effort and practice to get a hang of it, and I do understand how some more, average grade of players with a much lower skill threshold would meet problems.
Previously, they could simply slot a few stealth-related encounters, and enter stealth, and spam at-wills and that was easy enough to clear most IWD HE content. But now, when each of the paths become sophisticated, they're having a hard time surviving. Especially those with low-grade gear, I imagine.
I'm thinking its a little of both. Obviously, from the stealth changes alone I can see that the developers have a clear agenda, and a sense of purpose as to which direction the TR should be moving. However the details in how to move to where the developers want the TR to be, they're probably open-minded enough to be reactive to player response. If anything, this is as much uncharted territory to them, as it is to us.
The notes about the tweaked, second version of the changes that gentlemancrush has posted in the Feedback thread, proves that the developers are listening, and listening well, and they are also eager to receive ideas in how this new direction of TRs will work. Almost every change gc mentioned, I've suggested it in one way or another, as did many other people, and they actually took the time to implement most of it...that is indeed great news!
The same. Listening to the doomsayers and drama queens gets old really fast
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You are getting too emotional over this game and should CAREFULLY read what the OP was saying. Just look at your reaction above. Dude, it is just a game. . . and many of us have put plenty of time into it.
And, for the record, TR is and always has been my preferred class. I just try to be happy with what I have. Perfect Vorpal made me even happier when I was finally able to afford the enchantment!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
However for me, the issues remaining are as follows. 1) There needs to be a defense compensation that was previously gained from stealth. The funny thing is i have mostly played with a pop in pop out of stealth model using scoundrel and action rush. However what i didnt notice until playing on preview is that i was instinctivly stealthing anbd backing up to use CoS and heal with life-steal enchant. I did not even notice i was doing it until stealth kept running out.
2) i think the At wills have to be looked at and be re balanced for the new stealth enviroment. When i play my other characters i use the at-will that suits my playstyle, but dont really feel any of them are "best". The problem is in the case of DF is it was sooooo much better than every other at will.. like 50%? and then given an anoying handicap.
So this leads to one of the imediate issues that pops up on preview becaue it a) easily brings them out of stealth and b) once out of stealth looses all its damage bonuses.
im curious thogh has anyone in PVE tried stealthing as the flurry starts..
Anyhow i think the defense issue is the biggest one.
As a conclusion, impossible to combine DF and stealth.
That represent a major loose of damages over time...
Yes you are right with your statement about at-will. One is clearly over-powered. Only trash-mobs (and out of dungeons or Icewind) can make the others really efficient.
Maybe gloaming cut will gain some use through perma-stealth build now... But I am not sure of the average eficiency, especialy in PvE.
Also, the impossibility to use DF from stealth (remember the old 25% crit severity and other bonus of this kind) will reduce it's use.
For the lack of a defensive mechanic, that is also true... Looks like they are thinking that an increase in damage is enought.
Their only suggestion is 3 dodge with +50% lenght... Erm... Actual was already quite long for a melee class.
I would prefer a king of second type of dodge through an encounter.
For my I think for saboteur and scoundrel I think that It is a solid damage buff so far. I don't have enough data for sab yet.
On a side note I'm thinking in PvP if the new scoundrel manages to drop smoke bomb from stealth and hit a gwf with courage breaker I think the gwf.s player might actually cry now .
On the defense note I've run tuern live with smoke bomb ITC dazing strike and focused on control its produced some of the smoothest runs I've seen. But it a majorly needs our damage and b I think the average player in nwo cares so little for tactics in pve they may not notice.
It was hard to get a place in dungeons with the old TR.
It will became even harder with the new one if it take a full support role.
That's were the problem is : there is no retribution for tactical play, and thus, people don't care about tactical support class. If you are not the highest damage-dealer or AoE killer, go for a re-roll and maybe they will take you, but until this moment, go away.
Until the day where they will rework the all game, I will ask for massive damages over times, and not dazes and spike damage.
The thread is his, thus the topics/issues are defined by him. You are the one that is not sticking to the issue, which is the overly dramatic drama queens... of which you are a prime example...
Seriously people, if you don't like it when it goes live...move on and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I tried it from the start of the actual flurry and stealth ran out around the middle/end of the flurry
That said the executioner build can really rack up damage bonuses on a single target making TRs one of the best for dealing with bosses assuming we don' get one-shot.
I'm surprised to hear about the glaoming cut damage increase so clearly I need to do a LOT more testing in the preview server to see if its good enough for me to stay with the stealthy builds I love so much.
The question these changes would have you ask is, "why in the world would you keep on trying to use DF from stealth when it doesn't work, nor even desired, anymore?".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Simple: DF has long provided the higher damage and DoTs. the tradeoff? it takes forever, which is why the stealth at-will reduction is devastating. additionally, some invested in the DF artifact despite knowing that changes were coming the following mod.
Sly flourish has always been faster and more reliable. slightly less damage, yes, and no DoT, yes, but far faster and without the hassle of two slow, damage prone strikes before any real damage occurs.
Unfortunately, we see something like herd mentality in these games: someone finds a successful build, others follow the build. It doesn't matter if it's not their preferred playstyle; it's effective and it works. The problem comes when things change. Those who spent the time to build their toon from scratch roll with the punches and do what they've always done - test and improvise. The sheeple flail and flounder until a state of normalcy is returned and they can resume mindless grazing.
[/MMOs]
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Er... while I do agree with the sentiment, that's a bit too harsh I guess. But yes, I've wrote down 'the question' in hopes that someone reading it gets what I really meant to say. Looks like you caight it.
Change happens. Sometimes when we like a certain aspect of the game we over engage ourselves to it, and naturally begin to think we have some sort of a given right to dictate where the game goes, or how things should be, but in reality we're just customers to a product which the developers have creative control over -- and NW isn't even a subscribed game. Many people don't even spend a dime on the game, hence difficult to envision them having any 'rights' over it when they aren't even customers.
But I digress. Whether we pay or not, I'm sure most of us like this game very much and that's why we're all so fired up to raise our voices and opinions as to where the game is going. It's a good thing.
However, it is only a 'good thing' when players are in the spirit of cooperation with the providers of the game, that while things may change in a direction we may initially not understand, nor like, I believe it is our duty to try to cope with it and help the changes work out by providing information and opinions towards the positive.
If a change is coming, how can we make it work? How can we weed out the bugs? How can we help so that in the end, the change is tweaked in a good direction so that the ultimate recipents of its benefits -- us -- can enjoy it more.
We all have our favorite builds and styles, but nothing lasts forever. And trying to look at what new stuff implies, and working with it, is ultimately much more helpful than sticking to a dark corner and spewing curses and frets and complaints all day long.
In that sense, the answer to the question would be:
"Naw, you don't need to use DF in stealth. You want to use an encounter of your choice which satisfies two conditions: (1) maximize damage/effect you desire, (2) provides high chance of putting you into a situation where you can manage the immediate results of being pulled out of stealth. You use DF as a defense/offense at-will when you're out of stealth."
I've tested all the paths and feats out, and stil testing it to see which works for me. People who might find the new changes hard to cope with, just need to relax and try understand how things have changed, and what you must do with it.
Ultimately, it's that time you spend trying out stuff and discovering new things, that is most fun, when you play a MMOG.
That's what I wanted to say.
(ps) Try Smokebomb for starters. A good power to begin with that provides excellent defense when you are out of stealth. As I've stated almost a year ago, "The Smokebomb is going to be a new meta".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This forum should be one of encouraging and bouncing ideas back and forth. My comment wasn't doing that so much as bashing the common refrain.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
About DF, witch was one of the subjects here. The power was really powerful thanks to some feats and/or the steath. It was at the same time our most powerful at-will and a way to spam encounters. Now, it receive no bonus and became nearly as powerful as SF, except that it immobilize us, witch mean death with the new rogue. That is not what I call a balance. "Nerfing" a power making an other one useful because it is not nerf is not a balance, it is a nerf, nothing more. TR's at will are weaker than before, except maybe gloaming cut. About encounters, I have tested a lot, and in most PvE situation, there is a regression. LB is a good example, it hit slightly, harder than before but it's synergy with DF was allowing faster reload, so, in fact, no progress at all, on this side.
Same for others damage-axed power.
Less damage from at-will and not so much more power from encounters mean a reduction of our average DPS.
gave it a shot - works wonders with new scoundrel instead of itc (which frees up a feat set to go somewhere else)
stealth - wr - smoke - wr x3 - dazing if needed while spamming SF in between
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Secondly a lot of your encounters have had their damage ramped up.
The damage from df didn't actually change at all however the pre existing playstyle it supported is gone.
To reiterate what I've said earlier is the changes have forced new playztylez and revealed some of the class flaws stealth covered up. We have poorly balanced at wills that should instead support diderentlt playstyles.
Leaving df as it is now but speeding up the animation doesn't solve any of the issues its still a clunky badly designed at will. I just don't know what a good did is.