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pointsman
Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
Inspired by spacejew's "provocative" thread, I decided to do some testing of my own. And in a larger sense, perhaps this can be a place where more people can post their tests. I know that chemboy, abaddon, et al. have done a great deal of testing in previous mods but I don't know if we have up-to-date tests concerning all of the changes that have occurred in mod4 including the post-mod4 changes (like assailant nerf and chill stack nerf).
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My CW has 25 INT, 15 WIS, 20 CHA, 12 STR, 12 CON and 12 DEX. He is Human so he gets an extra 3 heroic feat points.
The feats I chose for the SS test:
http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13l3in0:100000:1z00uv:100000&h=1&p=ssm
I only assigned 21 of the 31 paragon feat points because those 21 constitute the "core" Thaum build that I think most Thaum CWs are using, and the other 10 is more of a personal preference.
For boons, I assigned:
Sharandar: +250 Power, +250 Critical Strike, +2% AP Gain, Elven Tranquility, Elvish Fury
Dread Ring: +125 Power/Movement, +250 Life Steal, +250 Armor Penetration, Enraged Regrowth, Endless Consumption
IWD: +250 Combat Advantage, +250 Stamina, +250 Recovery, Cool Resolve, Winter's Bounty
ToD: +200 Power, +200 Critical Strike, +200 Armor Penetration
The results for the SS Thaum test, wearing _only_ full High Vizier set (no enchants, no jewelry, no underwear) and using a Level 35 Chilling Eye artifact weapon:
(Power = 3642 / 22% damage bonus, Crit = 785 / 24.5% crit chance, RSI = 38.7%, AP Gain = 26.6%)
Encounters: CoI on tab, Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Sudden Storm
At-Wills: Chilling Cloud and Storm Pillar
Passives: Storm Spell, Eye of the Storm
Here are the feats I assigned for the MoF test:
http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13e3ih3:100000:1z00uv:100000&h=1&p=ssm
I selected Focused Wizardry here because it is reported to work on Smolder. I also selected a different boon, the Dread Ring T1 boon, I chose +125 Crit/Movement instead of +125 Power/Movement. All others were the same though.
For the first MoF Thaum test, the CW wore Full Shadow Weaver set and used the same weapon, I wanted to control for the same amount of power and RSI as the previous test. Also, since MoFs are more dependent on crit, I loaded up as high of a critical chance that I could get. Here I reslotted my Lantern artifact and juggled around some enchants and jewelry in order to get more crit. The final result was a Crit rating of 4427 (!) and a critical chance of 38.2%. But Power was 3544 (about the same) and RSI was 38.5% (again about the same).
Encounters: CoI on tab, Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Fanning the Flame
At-Wills: Chilling Cloud and Scorching Burst
Passives: Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction
Even with the absurdly high crit, the DPS is lower than the previous test (but not by that much).
For the second MoF Thaum test, the CW wore full High Vizier set and used the same weapon. Power was 3659 (about the same as the first test) and the RSI was exactly the same as the first test. The crit rating here was 1903, for a critical chance of 31.2%. Same encounters, at-wills and passives as before.
This test out-dps'ed the SS Thaum test, but again not by that much.
Finally I repeated the above test, but using the same heroic feats as the SS Thaum test (i.e. no Focused Wizardry). Here are those resuls:
So much lower DPS compared to the previous test. And if you compare the two, it appears that Rimefire Smolder is buffed by about 45% - 30% from FW and 15% from Swath.
So contrary to the claims of others, MoF CW's are not "bad at everything".
So if I did the tests wrong, please let me know with your constructive comments and I can redo the faulty tests. I freely admit, I am not an ACT expert.
Just a quickie test on Live (and removing my weapon enchant), 3 casts of the same spell on the single IWD target dummy:
CoI on Tab:
Chill Strike on Tab:
None of these casts were crits so Smolder did not proc (Critical Conflagration). So that makes it a more valid comparison.
Total damage of Conduit of Ice was 12327, total damage of Chill Strike was 9323. In addition, Conduit of Ice could proc Assailant, Creeping Frost and Warped Magics multiple times, while in my test, Chill Strike only procced Assailant once and did not proc the other two. For Spellstorm CW's, I imagine the same phenomenon would hold true for Spell Storm procs.
I am wondering what procced Warped Magics? Did Assailant proc Warped Magics? If so, is that WAI?
Edit: Now it may be that the DPS of Chill Strike is higher, since CoI is slower. But on a per-cast basis, CoI deals more damage.
High Vizier set
Epic Artifact weapon
Epic Artifact belt
Perfect Vorpal Enchantment
the following companions: Ioun Stone (summoned), Erinyes of Belial, Sellsword, Dancing Blade, Wild Hunt Rider
DC artifact - which I used as often as I could
Relevant Character stats:
Power: 9778
Critical strike: 1812
Recovery: 2563
Because I was throwing the kitchen sink at these test dummies I wanted to make sure I had a long enough test so that fluky occurrences wouldn't throw off the results. I settled on a ten minute test. That's long enough that a Wild Hunt proc here and a fluky critical on a daily there wouldn't significantly change overall DPS.
Spellstorm Configuration:
At-will's: Chilling cloud and Storm Pillar. I used Storm Pillar as often as I could while making sure to toss in Chilling Cloud often enough to keep Frozen Power Transfer always active.
Encounters: Conduit of Ice (tab), Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Sudden Storm
Passives: Eye of the Storm, Storm Spell
Daily: Oppressive Force. I always waited to use Oppressive Force until after Eye of the Storm procced. That way I would get 100% crits with it, which is a big damage boost with a Perfect Vorpal.
Results:
45,024 DPS
Master of Flame Configuration:
At-will's: Chilling cloud and Scorching Burst. I used Scorching Burst as often as I could while making sure to toss in Chilling Cloud often enough to keep Frozen Power Transfer always active.
Encounters: Fanning the Flame (tab), Conduit of Ice, Steal Time, Icy Terrain
Passives: Swath of Destruction, Critical Conflagration
Daily: Oppressive Force.
Results:
41,082 DPS
Analysis: When it comes to pure sustained damage both CW paragon paths are competitive and hit plenty hard enough to wipe out most anything. The Spellstorm CW will be better at burst damage thanks to Eye of the Storm and will also do slightly more sustained damage (about 9.5% more). However, in a group setting the Master of Flame CW will likely increase the group DPS substantially more than a Spellstorm CW thanks to the massive extra debuffing smoulder does and from Rimefire (everyone in the group who hits a burning target is credited with extra Rimefire damage). Basically, both have their uses and both can be played to incredibly useful effect as an individual and in a group. Master of Flame won't get the all of the pats on the back a Spellstorm does, but they are likely helping the group just as much, if not more.
I would do my own test but this says it all. I have been saying this since mod 2. Glad to see you guys have similar results.
Because of how paingiver is calculated, SS will look even better in a dungeon, but MOF is boosting the SS DPS a lot (15-20%), hence really does wonders for the clear.
Hopefully this settles things a little bit.
Nice work guys, Chem
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Slight correction. Any CW who places chill on a target with smoulder will gain Rimefire smoulder damage.
Anyone in the party who hits a target with rimefire/smoulder ticking when the MoF slots Swath of Destruction will gain 15% extra damage (not rimefire) on that target. Everything else looks good.
Also it's worth pointing out the effectiveness rating between the two tests. Spellstorm is about 130%, MOF about 160%. That is a substantial boost to party damage.
Guild and guide info
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
Kaelac - really appreciate your guides. Great work.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Great work.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
To the best my knowledge, yes.
My build is predicated on chill, so actually the time from smolder to rimfire is very short.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I stand corrected. Thanks, Kaelac.
I think a MoF CW has to take Focused Wizardry due to our reliance on Smolder, even if it means debuffing things like Oppressive Force.
Although I do wonder if Focused Wizardry is WAI. I don't know.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
What feats are you thinking that are not WAI? Perhaps we should take a look at it and then get Ezra as our class advocate to submit to Crush to take a look at?
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I cower in fear at the thought of what that will get broken.
MoF builds are better served by equipping the shadow weaver set for the lack of wasted stats and high level of innate critical chance, whereas the majority of spellstorm CWs i know run either high vizier, or a 2/2 setup for maximum +power and personal dps
it would be interesting to see how the debuff values from rimefire/smolder and the MoF tree compare with the debuff values from the HV set and an optimal spellstorm rotation
thus far on the forums, i have never seen this comparison made, and i think that before we can come right out and say that one spec is or is not more optimal for buffing group damage, it is important to make that comparison instead of constantly overlooking it. The likelihood of seeing a MoF using HV or a spellstorm using SW seems extremely low, and from personal experience (no supporting ACT parses, so speculation on my part i suppose) i see very little difference between the damage values associated with the rimefire/smolder debuff and the HV debuff when it comes to overall party damage, and certainly not as much as people seem to imply
if i can finally get ACT working on my PC, i'll attempt some trials of my own once my shadow weaver set is complete (already have HV as well as all other sets) to see if i can find an answer, but i'd be interested to see some other test results as well
The answers you are looking for are not that hard to find. The High Vizier debuff is up to 30%. The Smoulder/Rimefire debuff is also up to 30%. You can see this in the parses I posted earlier. The far right column titled "Effectiveness" lists the total debuff on the attacks. As a Spellstorm I can only get up to 130% effectiveness (30% debuff). As a Master of Flame I can get up to 160% effectiveness (60% debuff). If I were to switch to a Shadow Weaver set as a MoF my damage would drop significantly as I would only be able to get 130% effectiveness because of the loss of the High Vizier debuff stacks.
High Vizier is, without question, the most effective armor for a CW. Shadow Weaver or other sets should only be used if there is already another CW in the party wearing High Vizier.
However there is an alternate argument, does your build work in HV? The lack of crit makes things tough for my build - which really requires a decent crit chance.
However, I linked to Kaelic's guide from my guide about a build that doesn't use a high crit chance. I have yet to see this apply smolder effectively, but i see how it could be possible.
That said, it depends on a lot of things. The SW buff isn't nothing. I hope they should work out.
Did you guys see the CW feat thread? someone did some testing and it seems the results are inconsistent. I'm quite sure ezra is aware of this. We chat regularly too.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
To add to what Abaddon523 already mentioned, from my internal tests HV outperforms SW DPS wise on my MoF spec.
Lets try to quantify the bonus by some calculations.
In HV my CW has 36% crit (~2350 crit strike, yes it's a bit on the high side but I haven't reoptimised).
In SW she has 40.5% (~4070 crit strike).
Since I'm not a vorpal user, say severity is 75% base + 10% erinyes +2% boons + 15% crit conflag = 102% total severity or x2.02 multiplier. (if you use a vorpal the percentage increase is even less)
Lets calculate the expected sustained damage from crit and non crit hits.
Average HV damage output = 0.36*2.02+ 0.64 *1 = 0.7272+0.64 = 1.3672
Average SW damage output = 0.405*2.02+ 0.595*1 =1.4131
Percentage damage increase from crit increase compared to HV = (1.4131-1.3672)/1.3672 = 3.35%
So on the surface the SW crit gives a small DPS bonus compared to HV. But, don't forget HV have about 700 more power than SW. Assuming you're around 6k power, each 100 points in power is on average a 0.43% more percentage damage. 700 power means about a 3% DPS decrease on SW.
This means actually the gain in crit is offset by loss in power and results in almost the same output in damage statwise. (Ok if you slot CrC you have chance for more smoulder damage, but tap casting SB does same thing).
Now assume we always have full stacks, which isn't true, we have 18% extra severity, crit multiplier is now x2.20
Average SW damage output with SW buff = 0.405*2.2+0.595*1 = 1.486
Percentage increase compared with HV = (1.486-1.3672)/1.3672 = 8.69%.
In contrast damage with 3 HV stack = base damage *1.3 = 30%
"Oh but you can't get HV stacks on all the time". Fair enough. Say on average you have just 1 stack, that's still a flat 10% bonus. It is even harder to maintain 3 SW stacks because you need to use a mixture of encounters. And 3 stacks only gives 8.7% damage increase. Even standing still DPSing, if you don't watch and time your rotation you will lose stacks.
"Oh but it's a party buff and you get more lifesteal". Actually SW is a worse party buff. HV stacks are on the mob, anyone attacking the mob has the bonus (given they have enough ArP, but I won't go into that) regardless of range. SW stacks highly depend on timing and positioning of your party and is limited by range. With HV you will always get 3 stacks for dailys, steal time and anything you cast after that. As for the lifesteal buff, 500 lifesteal isn't much if you already have 1k+, whereas HV gives a defense buff, which directly boosts your survivability to give you a chance to lifesteal your damage back.
Finally, SW has an internal cooldown. It has 90s active time and 90s cooldown according to my tests. Dropping out of combat does not reset the cooldown. Therefore that 8.7% increase is effectively a 4.35% increase.
Summary:
SW has high crit but lower power than HV. Overall there is only a very small (~0.3% damage gain, depending on individual stats) stat wise.
3 stack 18% severity only translates to 8.7% percentage increase, compared to up to 30% for HV
SW has maximum 50% uptime due to internal cooldown.
Overall it's still not a bad set, but outside of a few situations if you are after best overall personal and group benefit HV has an edge.
--
As for smoulder crits, if the proccing ability crits then the first smoulder tick will crit and as you extend its uptime all the ticks will always crit. For rimefire this only happens with some encounters/abilities and not others, so sometimes the crit gets overwritten and sometimes it doesn. Add in the fact that multiple CWs proc rimefire and it gets too messy for me to work out what's going on.
For smoulder I tap cast Scorching burst (SB) on dying targets to proc combustive action AP gain, and tap cast on high HP targets to debuff if I haven't already used FtF on them. If there is a gap I semi-fully charge SB to debuff and also DPS. This way I have a better control of what definitely has smoulder going on, and the rest is just gravy. It may take some getting used to, but I ensure the things I want smoulder on have smoulder, and for others if it happens it happens.
Guild and guide info
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
Thanks, I did noticed last night when running with 2 other CWs, I saw 3 rimfire on the boss (and other mobs). Do you happen to know if the debuff stacks with multiple CWs? Or is it just there for the dmg tick?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I put on HV and only lost 3.5% crit chance (shocking even to me), because DR on crit is so hard.
My stats absolutely look worse now, but I'm going to test it. Not just your test, but everyone else's makes this worth trying. I also have tons of crit from artifacts and weapons.
Now from a practical standpoint, i have had friends who tried a similar build. Fanning on tab, dot with SB, run swath and combustive action, but when I logged them, despite all their efforts, they weren't applying smolder effectively.
Contrstingly Critical Conflagration applies whenever you crit - so you don't have to actively apply smolder. My crit chance is such that after two or three spells everything has smolder and the uptime is excellent. That's why i recommend that setup. However, i'd love to see the other way work as well. I think build diversity is great.
Now remember though, personally i have 24 charisma and 2k crit in HV - so a 36.3 % chance, which is still pretty good.
Secondly remember I also have:
Legendary Sigil of the Devoted (extra daily every 2 minutes)
Legendary Book of the Dead (5.5% ap gain)
Critical Power feat (about 10% ap gain)
Elvish Haste boon (2% ap gain)
Winter's Bounty Boon (haven't tested, but more AP gain here too)
So in practicality I have a lot of AP gain and get my dailies up often. Also I think that my rotation has pretty good AP gain from spells (if I remember FTF AP gain isn't great and the cooldown is long).
But of course, that's me. Other people might have different struggles, which is why i think each and every one of us needs to test and experiment.
BTW, I like threads where we discuss testing instead of arguing. Very tired of arguments.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
i'll do some testing of my own, but as chem mentioned, it seems like the loss of actual crit chance from wearing the HV set is minimal when compared with SW (which many MoFs i know have been using instead of HV), and that it should be possible to maintain rimefire/smolder consistently while also applying stacks of the HV debuff. This in my mind goes a long way in settling the debate posed in another thread about the actual difference between spellstorm and MoF in terms of potential group damage buffs
These are the results for my character, specifically, and your results may vary because of different feats and equipment. Important things to know about my build: I use Focused Wizardry. This increases the damage of Magic Missile and Ray of Frost 30% and decreases the damage of Storm Pillar and Chilling Cloud 10%. I believe it also increases the damage of Storm Spell procs off of Magic Missile and Ray of Frost by 30% and decreases the damage of Storm Spell procs off of Storm Pillar and Chilling Cloud by 10%. My main hand weapon is the Arcane Eye of the Golden Dragon which increases damage of Magic Missile 10%. If you're using something else, then your results for Magic Missile will be less, but not significantly so. I did not test Scorching Burst, mostly just out of laziness and not wanting to respec again (If a MoF would like to do that, feel free). For passives I use Storm Spell and Eye of the Storm, as I normally would in-game.
The results:
Magic Missile total DPS is 10,282.
Obviously you would not use Magic Missile continuously in a real battle, so to figure out how much DPS Magic Missile is adding to your rotation we need to take out Assailant. After all, it will proc anyway just from spells. So, when using Magic Missile in-between Encounters it will add 7,432 DPS.
Ray of Frost total DPS is 9,200.
Ray of Frost damage taking out Assailant is 7,023 DPS.
Chilling Cloud total DPS is 9,694
Chilling Cloud damage taking out Assailant is 7,195 DPS.
Storm Pillar total DPS is 8,949
Storm Pillar damage taking out Assailant is 6,065 DPS.
From a perspective of raw damage output Magic Missile, Ray of Frost and Chilling Cloud all have such a close damage output in this configuration that it just plain doesn't matter which one you choose to use. From a raw damage output Storm Pillar lags behind, in large part due to its inability to proc Creeping Frost. Also, Magic Missile will lose a small chunk of its DPS (about 462) if a different weapon is used - but would still be neck and neck with Chilling Cloud and Ray of Frost in its damage added between Encounters.
There are other some other complicating factors: Ray of Frost offers a control component the others do not. Magic Missile builds and maintains Arcane Stacks which can provide a damage increase for arcane spells of up to 15%. Chilling Cloud activates Frozen Power Transfer which increases damage output of all spells 5% (in a single target situation). Storm Pillar activates Destructive Wizardry which increases damage output of all spells 5%. Knowing this, it may turn out to be the case that cycling two at-will's may be the best use of the time waiting for cooldowns on Encounters. If you are using a spell rotation that includes arcane spells then Magic Missile should absolutely be one of the encounters that is alternated. Keeping arcane stacks up will the best damage boost possible. If not, then alternating Chilling Cloud and Storm Pillar may be the best use of time.
For Example, alternating Chilling Cloud and Storm Pillar on a single target yields these results: 10,170 DPS (7,696 without Assailant). That's more damage than either of them by themselves. The feats they activate strengthen each other so that they are better together than they are separately. Also, alternating them will make all Encounter Spells 10% stronger. Using just one is only a 5% boost.
Here's the bottom line: I think the best use of at-will's is to alternate two of them to keep feats activated or maintain arcane stacks. Or, if the target can be controlled, just use Ray of Frost to outright control them. However, the difference in damage between these spells is so incredibly miniscule that no one should ever be criticized for using whichever one they want. It really does not matter. If someone wants to use Chilling Cloud on a singe target, fine. If they're using Magic Missile because it looks cool? Fine. If they want to use Ray of Frost all the time? No big deal. No matter what at-will's people use the damage output will land in the same general neighborhood. Their damage output from at-will's will be the same as what you're using plus or minus a few percentage points and may actually be optimal for them depending on their build (which weapon they have, whether or not they have Focused Wizardry, etc.).
Now, things change dramatically if there's more than one target. But in single-target situations, which at-will someone is using is just not terribly important.