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GWF Alter Hybrid System for PvP (this build what do you think ?)
nezraal
Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
I have not committed to these changes yet. This is something I wish to do on an experimental basis. I am putting this on the forums to get some feedback.
Gears
P. Bi Set x 4
P.Bi Knot + Hammer
2x Profound Ring of Dominance
Smiting Battlescarred Amulet of Vitality (450 hp 225 Power 75 Tena + Offensive slot)
GPF + Barkshield
Stats
2k Arp + 5.5k Power + 22% Crit Rate (power will go up once I start to hit level 9 enchants, too poor now)
47k HP (I hope to hit 50k once the CON belt goes legendary + enchants go up to 9)
29 CON (future) - pour rest into STR
1 blue & 1 red or 2 blues in overload
Encounters
Rotation :
FLS > Sprint + TR > Sure Strike(s) > (as the opponent is trying to escape) > Come & Get it > Daring Shout
I can use the stamina to chase the opponent down or escape
Bravery + Ferocious Reaction
Build Tree
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13ilx00:100000:1uz000:1z00v0&h=0&p=ivn
+ve and -ve
- Tanky
- Don't need to target much, so the hits are consistent
- Effective against perma stealth TR
- High Pure damage
- Low Stamina Consumption
- You don't need to worry about your IBS missing your target
- You can forget about the negligible stun time + damage from takedown
- Low Crit Rate & Damage
- Not as much burst as IV > Destroyer but not as low as Sentinel
- Not as much defense as Sentinel
- No finishers or nukes (aka IBS)
Purely Experimental, could this work? I am trying to make something that can face tank and do sufficient damage. Please don't hold back on hard criticism, give me your thoughts.
Questions:
1. I remember from somewhere Come & Get It + Marked does not stack - true or false?
2. GPF does not stack focused destroyer - true or false ?
I am eager to here from GWF who are 17k+ GS
Background (wall of text ahead ignore them if they are boring)
Perma-runner: I tried the perma-runner TD IBS BF, and the problem with this is the sure strike(s) are weaker and ibs is less nukey. You can run around a lot and have fast escape mechanism. It's great to be perma runner in 1v1 situation but you can't really chase opponents all the time, the reason is about 70% of the time your fights will be engaged in team fights and as GWF you will be ahead of rest of the group. Cannot face-tank unless you are pvping pugs.
Executioner Style: FLS TD IBS. Best burst. However if your FLS or IBS misses you are screwed. So pretty much the option is to FLS (carefully), then sprint TR>TD and then IBS. The wait period for a successful land will kill a lot of cd and effect your overall dps. Similar to it's cousin perma-runner this build cannot face-tank. Additionally you run out of stamina almost too quickly and with only 3 charge to TR you feel like you are 2 TR short once you run out of stamina. Cannot face tank but you can go kami-kaze mode with (more) burst (than perma) and kill 1 before you die, unless you are pvping pugs. Don't bother going kami-kaze vs GF a given rule.
Sentinel: I feel like my grand mother is in control of the keyboard. It's a moving punch-bag. It lacks chase, burst and finisher. Terrible for killing anything, and not as tanky as GF. It acts a body guard support class for the CW, HR & SW in your group - constantly CCing them and eating all the damage. You are better off re-rolling to GF and re-farm boons + black ice set.
Gears
P. Bi Set x 4
P.Bi Knot + Hammer
2x Profound Ring of Dominance
Smiting Battlescarred Amulet of Vitality (450 hp 225 Power 75 Tena + Offensive slot)
GPF + Barkshield
Stats
2k Arp + 5.5k Power + 22% Crit Rate (power will go up once I start to hit level 9 enchants, too poor now)
47k HP (I hope to hit 50k once the CON belt goes legendary + enchants go up to 9)
29 CON (future) - pour rest into STR
1 blue & 1 red or 2 blues in overload
Encounters
Rotation :
FLS > Sprint + TR > Sure Strike(s) > (as the opponent is trying to escape) > Come & Get it > Daring Shout
I can use the stamina to chase the opponent down or escape
Bravery + Ferocious Reaction
Build Tree
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13ilx00:100000:1uz000:1z00v0&h=0&p=ivn
+ve and -ve
- Tanky
- Don't need to target much, so the hits are consistent
- Effective against perma stealth TR
- High Pure damage
- Low Stamina Consumption
- You don't need to worry about your IBS missing your target
- You can forget about the negligible stun time + damage from takedown
- Low Crit Rate & Damage
- Not as much burst as IV > Destroyer but not as low as Sentinel
- Not as much defense as Sentinel
- No finishers or nukes (aka IBS)
Purely Experimental, could this work? I am trying to make something that can face tank and do sufficient damage. Please don't hold back on hard criticism, give me your thoughts.
Questions:
1. I remember from somewhere Come & Get It + Marked does not stack - true or false?
2. GPF does not stack focused destroyer - true or false ?
I am eager to here from GWF who are 17k+ GS
Background (wall of text ahead ignore them if they are boring)
Perma-runner: I tried the perma-runner TD IBS BF, and the problem with this is the sure strike(s) are weaker and ibs is less nukey. You can run around a lot and have fast escape mechanism. It's great to be perma runner in 1v1 situation but you can't really chase opponents all the time, the reason is about 70% of the time your fights will be engaged in team fights and as GWF you will be ahead of rest of the group. Cannot face-tank unless you are pvping pugs.
Executioner Style: FLS TD IBS. Best burst. However if your FLS or IBS misses you are screwed. So pretty much the option is to FLS (carefully), then sprint TR>TD and then IBS. The wait period for a successful land will kill a lot of cd and effect your overall dps. Similar to it's cousin perma-runner this build cannot face-tank. Additionally you run out of stamina almost too quickly and with only 3 charge to TR you feel like you are 2 TR short once you run out of stamina. Cannot face tank but you can go kami-kaze mode with (more) burst (than perma) and kill 1 before you die, unless you are pvping pugs. Don't bother going kami-kaze vs GF a given rule.
Sentinel: I feel like my grand mother is in control of the keyboard. It's a moving punch-bag. It lacks chase, burst and finisher. Terrible for killing anything, and not as tanky as GF. It acts a body guard support class for the CW, HR & SW in your group - constantly CCing them and eating all the damage. You are better off re-rolling to GF and re-farm boons + black ice set.
Post edited by nezraal on
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Comments
The focus for a GWF is the mage classes, CW and SW are the things that a gwf can kill or at least make them play defensive so you buy time for your team to dish out dmg. Both classes can do alot more dmg than a gwf so even if you dont kill them is a win.
GF/TR/HR can kill you so is not rly a smart move to go after them solo, dont think your build for them( for all 3 your job is to create an opening for the cw or sw to take advantage).
This is at least my thinking for my gwf so:
1.you need stamina: take at least 3 points in Fast Runner and you need full master at arms/sentinel aegis and powerful challenge as well if you are IV.
2. whatever you do, dont use bleeds or dots on a CW so no GPF.. go with Vorpal/Feytouch.
3.Depending on your opponents, encounters can change, if you are forced to play 1v1, but as an opener i play cagi/frontline/IBS For GF/DC i switch Frontline with takedown and for a GWF i go takedown/resto strike/ IBS. For TR/HR i use cagi + a mage
4. You can use any kind of glyphs you want: blue/red/green all are pretty much the same for you as a GWF, look mainly at the stats and put what you are missing.
5. Use Sigil of the Devoted... forget about the stats, that thing gives you the edge vs cw/sw.
6. i cant see any other class feature but Weapon Master/Bravery regardless of build.
I like sentinel but i;ve encounter some rly good destroyers. 1v1 destro vs sent i give it to the destro, but i dont see a destro doing better vs cw/sw (they hit hard.. rly hard) pretty much if they manage to cc you is game over.. while as sentinel you can still survive and it does good dmg as well.
Great feedback. There are some points I agree on and some I do not.
1. We are saying the same thing but worded differently. For example:
You said: "For all 3 your job is to create an opening for the cw or sw to take advantage."
I said: " It acts a body guard support class for the CW, HR & SW in your group - constantly CCing them and eating all the damage"
This is how I feel if I am playing sentinel. We agree here, specially if you prefer survival this is the perfect game play and style.
2. You need stamina.
Agree, but 9% stamina regen won't be enough if you want to do a "chase down" or "escape" like a kind of hit run type of play. If you want to go this route I think BF is the best answer. But because of BF you will have lesser nuke which means you need to stick to 40-45k hp and focus the rest on ArP and Power to "make-up" for the loss on sure strike + IBS damage. This is the hardest style of play, but has high end rewards if you can accurately go IBS with low misses and chase down anyone to their grave.
3. The third play style that's common is an executioner style with high burst on sure strike and IBS with FLS. FLS shutting down then sprint + tr > TD > IBS. Very strong nuke with 5/5 in Executioner Style instead of cd on td and bf. The problem is it lacks stamina for escape but 3 TR, bonus damage in IBS and sure strikes and FLS can do quite a lot. It's a bit of a kamikaze style but the closest thing to me for a "true" brawler". Screw up the FLS you may still have a half chance with Sprint TR > IBS. Screw up the IBS , GG.
The rest of the points you mentioned, 3-6 I agree with, except a half question mark on weapon master which I think works excellently with crit based build. P.V is great burst if crit lands and is a choice. GPF helps me keep the ArP at 2k instead of 2.5k on 29 CON (in long goal) - sadly GPF no longer stacks on destroyer (which was an attractive feature).. Most high end players with this route go around 55-60 k HP, and have low power because most of the offensive slots are needed for around 2.5k ArP and Crit Rate on P.V. It's viable but "meh" - idk you have to be accurate in landing your IBS. Screw it up and you will be running for pots against a 18k+ GS opponent. Either hero or zero, too kamikaze *ish.
If you want to go more crazy and make fun of obsessed perma runners and their bf you can go FLS IBS & Restoring Strike (more nukey and super effective vs pugs). This is what I am running currently. Takedown doesn't do it for me anymore - I am getting thirsty for more. I want to squeeze those cry baby CW(s) - sorry if it sounded personal
Against pugs (15k GS and lower), anything will work. So I am not going to go there.
Here is how I see things:
* Unstoppable doesn't work like Mod 3, so i am stepping away from Sentinels with more cc or defense buff or damage to other classes
* Destro purpose no longer stacks with dots (1 pt deep gash / gpf), so I am stepping away from Destro.
AND FOR THE REASONS POSTED ABOVE I AM TRYING A HYBRID:
This build is going to be the experiment with the following in mind: no nuke, a brawler but not face tank. The encounters used are risk-free. Not sure if the build will work. Will try this as an experimental build. All good suggestions and observation re-confirming some of the ideas I had earlier. My only concern is if the lack of "nuke" won't make the build (in my first post) viable and because this is a high end power build it will have low crit rate focusing primarily to negate DR% and pour the rest into power. The lack of nuke what I posted (first post) for the build concerns me (criticizing myself)
EDIT : 5. Use Sigil of the Devoted... forget about the stats, that thing gives you the edge vs cw/sw.
WOW, I actually never bothered looking at it. Just "wow", specially with savage advance * LOTS OF NUKING POSSIBILITIES - 15 s cd - hm. You got me thinking now! I am having second thoughts on IV > Destroyer now. FLS > IBS > Restoring Strike > Savage Advance (15s CD) Restoring > FLS > IBS - possible ???
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Encounters:
Daring Shout > FLS > IBS (use 3x TR when stamina is down)
1. Hard Hitting Nukes to replace the loss of damage from destro.
2. 3 unused TR to make up for stamina loss.
Come & Get it is almost attractive but the nuke from IBS is a bigger return reward and that works either with TD > IBS or FLS > IBS or there is a high miss chance.
Another could be:
Come & Get it > Daring Shout > FLS and use Trample the fallen with 5 points in Trample - whack sure strikes and use 3x TRs to make up for stamina loss.
Now can someone confirm if Powerful Challenge stack with Come & Get it ?
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-be careful with TR cause you can get cc from it. Use it only as a mark provider, after u;ve land a stun or if you know that their cc is on CD.
- use http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/342-crit-power-and-dps-the-numbers-guide/ to pick between Steely Defense/Weapon Master/Devastating Critical
Cagi and Powerful Challenge are two different debuffs so they stack.
having Daring Shout/CaGi + Takedown and IBS
but i doubt, the dps is to low.. so better go full destroyer.
I wouldn't be so sure. There are changes coming to Intimidation feat and TR: With this and decent power, GWF could become an AoE beast in both PvP and PvE. However, I'd get the sentinel tier 5 feat. A mix between sounds like a bad idea.
Question for ortzhy : When it says "chance" on "Greater Tenebrous" - what is the ratio ? Like 1 in 20 attacks?
Honestly the build I posted, which I am thinking about experimenting I have second doubts if the dps is too low. I am trying to make it a bit more tanky using Ferocious Reaction & Unstoppable Recovery. The main idea is to find an alternative better use of focused destroyer which no longer stacks with GPF or 1 point in Deep Gash and having to chase opponents, this feature does not look so attractive anymore. I am simply trying to find better use and change the play style a bit experimentally.
* Ferocious Reaction + Unstoppable Recovery - can almost make you feel like a 70k HP GWF
* 5 points in Cagi can potentially get missing damage buff + AOE damage building determination
I think those were the two main ideas in mind when I posted that build. I distributed one for better survival and one more extra damage aka TR > Cagi > FLS / TD > IBS.
But the build lacks burst, although it has decent consistent damage and decent defense. It may or may not be viable, it's purely experimental. I know the build looks a bit silly, I am well aware of other builds - I am just trying something different which may or may not work. Also, does anyone feel this ? I feel Sure Strike is 15% slower, could be my imagination ? (more nerf on focused destroyer).
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If it's something to come, then i'll may be switch from PF back to vorpal...
About the build...even if nerfed, i think you underestimate the capstones a bit. Sentinel capstone and 4th feat are among the best. Also, keep in mind right now sprint is what devs want us to use the most to stay alive. Anything else is less effective. So i'd take the 15% stamina heroic feat, especially if you're not going to use BF.
This said, right now there's no way you can tank much in PvP, so my personal opinion is that it's quite good to go destroyer with a focus in burst damage and pretty much focus in going as high as you can with HP and regeneration, cause those are the only things, expecially HPs, that will always help you survive, and no piercing damage or glyph can go through a huge HP wall.
Even sentinels cannot do much against glyphs and piercing damage so the defensive path for PvP, to me, is still behind a burst high HP build.
I'd say reduced cooldowns, ArP to 2k with con at 24 base points (most CWs/ TRs/ HRs/ exc... have 35% DR or so), then i'd go high on power and try to get to 30% crit. My aim is to get to 60k HP and high regeneration on sprinter destroyer with high burst. So you run in, hit like a huge truck and can tank the burst coming at you, then sprint around. In 1v1 also sprint is right now the most powerful weapon against pretty much every class, and imho what makes a GWF able to fight in current PvP.
Also, sprinter with BF-TD-IBS requires more skills but still, once mastered, is a beast. Just hard to master since you pretty much must anticipate every move of your enemy. But in case you mess up, you can still sprint away and recover.
On a personal note, i'd always take the executioner's style feat. increased damage on IBS and sure strike in PvP is quite effective.
Going for threat damage i'd forget about ArP and go full monster power+ RS to take advantage of the feated RS. Obviously with sentinel aegis. As a sentinel, i got the impression i could go unstoppable more. And i could tank more, for sure. Lacks burst damage but with threat can be dangerous since it's hard to dodge both DS and CAGI. Would be fun to see a 10k power/ 60k HP sentinel.
But still, right now SWs, CWs, HRs and may be GFs too deal more damage and much more easily, and with glyphs you'd not last long. If glyphs will be gone (and i hope so), then sentinel could be much more effective. But right now, for survival i'd bet on HPs, regeneration (easy to stack) and sprint.
Reading again what you want, i think GWF might not be the best choice, combat ranger may be closer to your play style. If you didnt invest too much in your gwf you might want to check that one.
- @anyone - using what ortzhy pointed sigil with 100% AP and 15s cd from savage advance? anyone try?
- @anyone I just feel sure strike(s) are a little slower than before (true/false)
- @anyone GPF DOT does not stack focus destroyer (true/false)
- @ortzhy - how does Tene work with ArP?
- @ortzhy - does lack of ArP because of Tene effect your encounter damage?
- @ortzhy - is the chance for hitting Tene at 5%? (I understand there is a huge damage if it executes)
- @ortzhy - what is your opinion on blood thirsty on sentinel?
- @pando 5/5 in Executioner Style or 5/5 cd on td/bf or taking both and not taking focused destroyer?
- @pando - (29 CON + 2K ArP) 39% DR + GPF and then focus on power - should I lower it?
- @pando - how are you achieving 30% crit rate ? ( I remember you mentioning you went STR based)
- @pando - list by priority 1.artifact wep 2.corrupted ice hammer 3.purified ice hammer 4.crit bonus wep?
- @pando - BF - TD - IBS in what order ? Sprint > TR > TD > IBS then BF ?
Just trying to understand things better. I would appreciate it if you two could answer these questions.
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- i dont find anything wrong with it (ss).
- dont know about GPF (is a bad pick for pvp as gwf)
-tenes are affected by dmg reduction so arp makes them hit harder (and if my memory serves me well they can as well be dodge) also careful to pick them as they;re dmg is base on your current HP, less hp you have less dmg they;ll deal.
-They;ll hit every time the internal cooldown expires (20 sec if i recall correct)
-Depends on how much arpen you have- vs mage classes wont be any difference as you can get above 30% pretty easy (count const as well).
-Bloodthirsty?! do you mean lifedrinker(weapon enchant) or bloodtheft (armor enchant)?
Cagi is a range skill and covers a huge area, best to use vs CWs or perma TR;s as it will break their stealth. Adds a short daze effect and you are forcing an extra dodge from their part with it while having them in the range for FLS. With a good timing is an easier rotation to land: Cagi+FLS+IBS, use TR for mark and your FLS will also hit hard with the bonus dmg from cagi + dmg bonus from mark.
If you can land TD easy due latency then is all good, but if you dont cagi is a good replacement.
yey, finally i was ragin for alot on GWF feedback, for this. that would be great, that intimidation feat will properly benefit damabe bonuses/crit/armor pen , thou i suspect it will be a little bugged at first
Internal CD @ 20s. Incredible! Specially anyone with the 50k+ Mark has a lot of promises.
I meant life drinker. But the blood theft also makes me curious and so does soulforged vs bark. (I am at work so rushing through a bit, while typing). Any good on sentinel?
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I use Bark/Vorpal. Lifesteal provides no dmg for me and bloodtheft is useless. Tenes are not that fantastic as they sound...
- i have 5/5 in both. But it's down to personal preference. I prefer the bonus in both since i find executioner style more solid and perma sprint more useful to survive due to sprint being now your best source of survivability. Plus i like sprinter build expecially cause as you explained it's quite unforgiving, and if i win it usually means i ouplayed the enemy. Plus it's very action-oriented. To go all out on burst and use fls, focused destroyer is better probably, with executioner style. Ex style is a must have imho if you go destro.
- i've inspected bis combat hrs/trs and cws, got the impression 35% dr was the magic number. But 39 could still be good. Would say in between 35 and 39. More than that you gain more against tanks (PvP gwfs and any GF), but are less effective against other classes. ARP stacks better than power but after that value of DRI you waste it against non-tanks. Usually. Unless i miss something. PF goes negative so i would AIM to nullify the enemies medium dr, then make them go negative with PF.
- i use master at arms. With no focused destroyer, it's the best way to get enough crit. Plus, once darks are at a good rank i can slot azures to increase the base crit%. Now i have 22% base with rank 7s, with master at arms it gets up over 30%. That's what i found better. Master at arms and bravery to get good crit and deflect ( both over 30%).
- i'd go for crit bonus weapon on a crit based, vorpal build. I'm using the ferocity i got from campaign. Good for crit stat and sure strike boost. Good sinergy with exec style on sure strike. Being perma sprinter i'm always in melee range so with TD every 6 seconds it's good to stun and SS a lot. Then strong ibs when enemy's hps get lower. PBI is tanky i guess but it was too hard to get so i didn't even tried. I use PBI off-hand and ferocity artifact right now. It's what i have so not a true 'choice', but happy with it.
- playstyle here is a bit personal.Bf only when my sprint is depleted if i still need to chase the enemy. I usually do this:
CW/HR/TR/SW: observe the enemy pattern of movement/ dodges. Predict where they will move and anticipate their moves so i can takedown them. I try to never sprint to follow the enemy. I always try to directly sprint to where the enemy will be and takedown. Can either TD from sprint or from TR. In the second case, to link TR and TD i press TD when TR animation is around 80% complete. This way They link smoothly and TD closes the last little gap, avoiding the small lag you get with the end of TR animation.
On GF/gwf just time sprint to make their cc crush on it. Predict when They will try to fls/ charge. And sprint behind them. Against good fighters it's a skill fight against their ability to do the same (gwf) or prevent you from sprinting behind them (GF). Against skilled gfs usually it's not enough to just sprint behind them. Sometimes i zoom a few times before trying takedown. And i only sprint when i al at around 30' distance, at the very last moment.
This is how i play or try to play my gwf (i still have to fully master it, against strong dpsers with lots of pressure sometimes i lose my cool and make mistakes. But They are usually either red users who can burn me fast).
1. As destroyer GPF is perfectly viable since it stacks on Destroyer's Purpose
2. Just for the CD on takedown alone, I think taking 5/5 on relentless is worth it.
3. Long term goals:
Thank you for confirming the numbers. 35% makes sense for two reasons.
a. Not everyone is GF & GWF.
b. Not everyone is 17k+ gears.
From this these will be my long term goals:
- HP around 49-50k
- Crit Rate around 20% + Weapon Master
- DR% ignore around 37%
- Power around 6.5k
- Deflection ~ 28%
- 42% on defense + 18% Tenacity
I am tossing away the experiment because the 4th & 5th column on sentinel is more promising and so is destroyer's purpose. Additionally the build lacks burst and finisher. Lots of benefits that cannot be ignored. Thank you for the help both of you (ortzhy + pando)
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Looking over your build I am confused by your choice in feats and in abilities, but primarily feats.
To start one of your primary complaints was that GWF builds lack either damage or defense, however with the feat and abilities you're proposing, you lack both. Daring Shout is almost unusable in my opinion, it deals no damage (though slightly increasing yours) however other, more useful abilities are better in my opinion to mark targets, and the reduced damage residence for the enemy is lost as soon as they attack you. I can't speak to the defensive capabilities of this ability since I'm not fully aware of them, however I am of the opinion that this can be replaced.
Moving towards FLS and Come and Get It, FLS is the obvious choice over nearly every other ability, however Come and Get it confuses me as well. This build lacks sizable damage output, meaning the enemy is likely to not be threatened by you and run. This causes the ability to lose much of its use, in addition to that while using TR GWF's already have substantial chase potential.
The feat tree is perfect IMO, though I'm sure most people feel the same, but the paragon tree is awkward. Yes this is a hybrid build, but really it shouldn't be. Your choice of intimidation in the sentinel tree makes total sense if you are setting out to use these encounters, but I feel that it limits your choice greatly in the abilities you can use, and takes away from your potential damage output.
The other issue with the feats selected is the choice of Improved Reaction > Sentinel's Aegis and Master At Arms. This choice limits you to using a passive which, yes, gives you 35% max hp when you drop too low, but it also has a 3 MINUTE COOLDOWN. This obviously is an attempt to gain more survivability, but without doing the math I can almost guarantee that Sentinel's Aegis + the 5 AC and 6% deflect from using the points to 5/5 your Master at Arms provides much more survivability, especially in combination with Bravery instead of Ferocious Reaction.
Small note as well in terms of damage dealing, If you have 5k Power, then your Sure Strike will do around 900 Max damage, meaning you would have to use it over 10 times in less than 6 seconds using the 5/5 in Great Weapon Focus in order for the damage to equate to that of 5/5 in Deep gash, which is something that is unlikely especially if chasing a ranged class.
If you continue to insist upon using Come and Get It and Daring Shout, then I would attempt to use this paragon tree instead, and switching Ferocious Reaction for Bravery:
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13ilx00:100000:15u000:1z00z1&h=0&p=ivn
I look forward to reading how you feel about my opinions, as I would love to see this build work but at the moment it just doesn't seem appropriate.
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1. Overslot glyphs are OP
2. Overall relative stats do not even compare. The only viable PvP set is purified black ice.
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indeed, u cant overcome with self healing the damage those glyphs do
but i wonder if mod 5 brings new sets