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How Should They Fix the TR?
refracted0dawn
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
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I know very little about 4E D&D and it took me ages to get my head around Neverwinter mechanics.
But I do know First Edition and 2nd edit AD&D and D&D3.5 very well.
So, in Neverwinter, they piled nerf upon nerf upon the TR until all that is really left is Perma-Stealth. And now they are likely to get rid of that, so the best TRs can hope for in the future is probably Semi-Perma.
But in earlier versions of AD&D, a Thief's Backstab or Sneak Attack could do 5x Weapon damage. In Neverwinter, that is a Critical Severity of 500%.
Of course, it did not happen all that often; you needed to have Surprise, be undetected and (usually) attack from behind.
But the target lost all Dexterity and Deflection bonuses to AC, had no shield bonus, you got a +10% bonus To Hit for Rear Attack, another bonus for Surprise and another +20% bonus To Hit for attempting a Backstab, with Quintuple damage at high levels.
So I was thinking, should TRs have:
1. a base Critical Chance of 25% with At-Wills because they are a sneaky back-stabber class;
2. a base Critical Severity of 100%, so every Crit ALWAYS does at least double damage, even with no Crit gear and enchants;
3. Stealth gives them a bonus +50% Critical Chance with At-Wills (but attacking breaks stealth);
4. Stealth gives them a +100% bonus to Critical Severity, so a Stealthed backstab gives Triple Damage of +200% (but attacking breaks stealth);
5. Combat Advantage when attacking from behind would give them the same bonuses even when not Stealthed, and if Stealthed the bonuses are applied again for +125% Critical Chance and Critical Severity of +300%?
Or is that way too Over-Powered?
Only the first hit of an At-Will would benefit from the bonuses as Stealth is broken as soon as you hurt someone. It would still apply to Combat Advantage if attacking from behind.
~
I know very little about 4E D&D and it took me ages to get my head around Neverwinter mechanics.
But I do know First Edition and 2nd edit AD&D and D&D3.5 very well.
So, in Neverwinter, they piled nerf upon nerf upon the TR until all that is really left is Perma-Stealth. And now they are likely to get rid of that, so the best TRs can hope for in the future is probably Semi-Perma.
But in earlier versions of AD&D, a Thief's Backstab or Sneak Attack could do 5x Weapon damage. In Neverwinter, that is a Critical Severity of 500%.
Of course, it did not happen all that often; you needed to have Surprise, be undetected and (usually) attack from behind.
But the target lost all Dexterity and Deflection bonuses to AC, had no shield bonus, you got a +10% bonus To Hit for Rear Attack, another bonus for Surprise and another +20% bonus To Hit for attempting a Backstab, with Quintuple damage at high levels.
So I was thinking, should TRs have:
1. a base Critical Chance of 25% with At-Wills because they are a sneaky back-stabber class;
2. a base Critical Severity of 100%, so every Crit ALWAYS does at least double damage, even with no Crit gear and enchants;
3. Stealth gives them a bonus +50% Critical Chance with At-Wills (but attacking breaks stealth);
4. Stealth gives them a +100% bonus to Critical Severity, so a Stealthed backstab gives Triple Damage of +200% (but attacking breaks stealth);
5. Combat Advantage when attacking from behind would give them the same bonuses even when not Stealthed, and if Stealthed the bonuses are applied again for +125% Critical Chance and Critical Severity of +300%?
Or is that way too Over-Powered?
Only the first hit of an At-Will would benefit from the bonuses as Stealth is broken as soon as you hurt someone. It would still apply to Combat Advantage if attacking from behind.
~
Post edited by refracted0dawn on
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Overall Deflection Chance should be doubled when Stealthed.
Also,
There should be a lot more and varied traps - deadfalls, sliding walls, rolling floors, spikes, blades, swinging dead weights etc. And they should do at least 30 to 50% hp damage on all classes at level 10, rising to 50 to 90% at higher levels. That would make the special skill of Disarming Traps worthwhile and parties would not just charge though them as if they weren't there.
karakla1 suggested:
Let him set up traps, blind the enemy or other stuff that supports the group.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
For too long, the base damage and stealth, have simply covered up just how pathetically inefficient, clumsy and clunky the class is.
We need the "tools" to be able to fight better. We don't need straight forward damage increase -- what we need, are ways to be able to inflict damage efficiently, and avoid/evade incoming attacks with as much efficiency... special utilities, CCs, increase of basic physical performance (like running speed and deflection chance), more dodge-powers, retaliatory powers, special function feats etc etc.. something that allows us to fight GWFs, HRs, CWs as technical melees, even without stealth.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
its kind of mele class, but its one hit kill
smoke is nice but not enough for PVE, I think
The TR we have now is toxic, clunky, and poorly designed. It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. New mechanics, new powers, new everything. And that "new everything" has to make TR easier to balance -- right now it's either too weak or too broken, no gray area. TR needs to be reworked in such a way that it's healthier for the game and its players; straight-up damage increases won't do.
That's sort of what I was getting at - instead of the same base Crit and Deflection chance as other classes, TRs should have a decent bonus.
They already have a Deflection Severity of 75% vs 50%, but that does not help if their Deflection Chance is 0%.
But their Critical Chance and Critical Severity should also have a substantial bonus, because it is not based on luck, it's based on knowledge of anatomy and knowing where to strike and taking careful aim. That's where the surprise and rear attack bonuses come in.
Pretty much like Daniel Day-Lewis as "The Butcher" in "Gangs of New York".
One could argue that HRs should have this as well, but they usually hunt animals rather than people.
And maybe faster animations on some powers would help, as well as reasonable cool downs.
You don't know what are you talking about. There is no broken TR, each geared TR, CW, HR, GF TR has no chance to win. TR won't even survive against HR. Even DC with ridiculous hp can't be killed by TR. HP matters in pvp and TR has worste hp of all classes.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
*facepalm*
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Seriously though, the class needs rebuilt. They're throwing around ideas about stealth. They can't make changes to that without redoing half the powers and feats. kweassa has pretty much summed it up, *facepalm* included!
Branch Lead
What was the original sneak attack? 30% damage bonus? I can't remember now.
I agree with others about a straight up damage boos not being the solution (in itself). It has to come from a redesign. Even if we had a 100% damage increase (what I deem necessary to compete with the other strikers (200% to 500% with the SW in its current broken form)) it still wouldn't help much when half the mobs are dead before we even get into attack range.
My big worries are that the game is so damned easy now that when we get fixed they are going to have to do something drastic like double the hp and damage of all mobs in the game to actually restore a player versus game balance -- I mean we are fine versus the game now it is just compared to other classes we are far behind.
Most problem for me is that duelist flurrys cast time is too high and i have sometimes the problem to attack enemys properly because they start to move or jump to the other side of the map (first two strikes + lagg = no fun). Then is the problem that classes like CW or GWF nearly instant kill the enemys while i begin to start with duelist flurry.
Another problem is that duelist flurry is hard to cancel. 3 of 5 members was wiped out by the scorpion bosses (eLOL) and the DC and I was alone. I tried Duelist Flurry but it takes 1-2 secs to cancel the skill and walk or jump away.
The whole problem of this class in PvE is that it is a time based class. If the fight continues like 2-3 minutes you can make proper damage. But with all the Burst Classes you have nearly no time to deal damage because trash mob fight are more like 30-60 secs (or even less). The same problem by nearly all Boss Fights. The TR needs time to make his damage while other classes are more like: "Hit the key instant DPS, lulz, ROFL 150K crit on any mob in range".
But in the other way i think,... the TR in the current state can work with only some minor changes. A bit more Damage in all Skills, more like 5-10% (so that he is the best Single Target DPS again) and give him some additional perks like the current +5% Critical Strike for all group members. Let him set up trapps, blind the enemy or other stuff that supports the group.
But, in PvP, as soon as they get stunned, dazed or frozen, that is it. And they both have CON 17, Battlefield Skulker sets and Spymaster's weapons. But all the Offence enchants are for Recovery.
In all versions of AD&D, a Thief would have a hard time facing toe-to-toe with an armoured Warrior and Cleric or even a Wizard. But their special skills of Stealth, Critical Strike and Backstab is what gave them the edge. But Perma-Stealth is really irritating and no fun for the other classes in PvP. Stealth is important, but it is not realistic to be in Stealth, in full view, all the time. But there should be very substantial bonuses when you ARE in Stealth, permanent bonuses for Combat Advantage, but Stealth should break when you make an attack. Otherwise, it's like having permanent access to Improved Invisibility, and even the CW does not have that.
The DC is the truly broken class, but the TR is not far behind. Thank Tymora they are both being over-hauled.
Another thing is I think there should be a lot more and varied traps - deadfalls, sliding walls, rolling floors, spikes, blades, swinging dead weights etc. And they should do at least 30 to 50% hp damage on all classes at level 10, rising to 50 to 90% at higher levels. That would make the special skill of Disarming Traps worthwhile and parties would not just charge though them as if they weren't there.
~
Yes, it's an even bigger problem in PvP. It would be much better if you could move forward at the same time, like a GF can move forward while holding his Guard up and either shield-bashing or stabbing over the top. I think the idea is that you should use that attack from behind, like most TR attacks, so you get Combat Advantage as well and the target is already busy with whoever he is fighting, so is less likely to try and avoid you. But then, it is called Duelist's Flurry, so maybe they mean it as a face-to-face melee attack form. But everyone in PvP knows they can completely avoid it if they step back a bit, so it makes the attack quite impotent at times.
Better yet would be if the TR jumped towards the target further (it does jump forwards bit, but the range is very short). Maybe 15 feet for a spring attack?
And if the flurry could follow the target as well, instead of being rooted to the spot, that would help as well. But it has to be fair to other classes and other TRs - you should be able to move out of the way of any attack, but not so that the attack is always useless. The inability to avoid their damage is one of the things that makes the CW so ludicrously over-powered.
I think that the first two swipes of Duelist's Flurry should be faster, and maybe have a 35% chance to stun - so the target would not always avoid it. Otherwise, you'd have to use Dazing Strike first, and the animation of that is dreadfully slow and in PvP it is easy to dodge as soon as you see them jump up. Unless they are Stealthed. And using it breaks Stealth, so it's not so hot for a Perma. The alleged Daze effect of Shadow Strike while in Stealth seems to be non-existent. And as soon as you are visible, you are dead. Unless you are up against a rubbish team who ignore you.
It can be cancelled with another Power during the first two, slow, strikes. But when the Flurry is happening, it has to complete, even when you are striking thin air.
You can take advantage of that unstoppable flurry if you are in Stealth, because you can activate Bait and Switch or Shadow Strike during the Flurry phase, and as soon as the attack sequence finishes, B&S or SS kick in and refill your Stealth meter. So it's a good way to keep Stealth up while also doing some damage to a target that has moved away. As long as you have the cool down so you do not come out of Stealth before the B&S kicks in - but if it does, you'll dodge backwards and can then use Shadow Strike and have a full Stealth meter again. Just as long as you don't get frozen or stunned when you are visible. Not tried it with other powers yet, as most of them will break Stealth anyway.
At least, it works against Pinatas!
Would that update involve the Prophecy of the Changes to the TR, as foretold in ancient texts of Any More Waiting and us TR's Are Going to Crack Open a Riot"?
They said we might be able to see it on the 20th.. but then they don't call.. they don't write...
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the dragon model bug as well. Thanks for bringing that up suddenlyslow. It shouldn't pull you right to the middle of the target.
I could understand the risk versus reward if the attack was actually stellar in performance, but it is only that way for us. Either of GWF SS or IBS alone will do more damage than bleed, and the same is true for some other classes attacks.
gentlemancrush
Systems Designer :
Secondly, as to abilities piercing resistance. Most of these cases are either not intentional (WoB is a good example of this, and that is getting fixed with the rogue changes)
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Huh? So Whirlwind of Blades is going to be even LESS use than it is?
With Mocking Knave? I was thinking the same thing recently, as it also boosts Cloud of Steel. For a WK, that and Disheartening Strike plus Distracting Knife would probably be better than Nimble Blade, as a 10% damage bonus on every hit (including Crits) is probably better than a 20% bonus on every third non-Critical hit.
I have been wondering what most Master Infiltrators do for their second At Will - Cloud of Steel is a no Brainer, but Gloaming Cut is even slower than Duelist's Flurry, and they have only one missile At Will. They do have some distinct advantages, such as the Invisible Infiltrator Feature refilling the Stealth meter after every Daily, but how do they do melee? Sly Flourish, I suppose? I know that half the time, DF is not really working for me. Unless I get behind someone who is busy fighting; and if the other team mate Stuns him, I'm all set.
The Whisperknife has the Seething Knives Scoundrel Feat, but that only refills 25% of Stealth and only after using the Hateful Knives Daily, but it does also synergise with the Razor Action Feature.
But the Sigil of the Devoted DC Artifact is very useful for my MI- not so much for the stat boosts, but because using it refills 40% of Action Points over a few seconds at Rank 1, rising to 100% over 15 seconds (IIRC) at Rank 100. It cannot be used to refine other artifacts, but I may rank it up instead of the Blood Crystal Raven Skull (which my MI does not have yet). My Whisperknife has one at Rank 60, but it really does not help me survive after being resurrected by my Rank 8 Soulforged. Being able to use Shocking Execution sooner helps more, I think. It's lucky that both my DO and AC went to IWD and did that special quest, as all my characters can use it. I think it's actually better than the Sigil of the Trickster.
I'm going to re-spec both my TRs when I get the Zen - the WK is going from almost all Saboteur to hybrid Scoundrel and Saboteur, and the MI is going to go from mostly Saboteur to Executioner/Scoundrel. I'll try that for a few weeks, and by then I'll have enough Zen to spec back if I don't like it.
I definitely do use sly flourish and cloud of steel (though CoS less since the stack was dropped from 12 to 8) and rely on whirlwind and SE for my dailies.
passives are tactics and skillful infiltrator.
So, you get a glimpse of my current build. She used to be a decent DPSer before the bulk of the nerfs. Still deals good damage, too, but just not as high.
As for re-speccing, test them out on the preview first to see what you like. I've been doing that with a few tweaks here and there myself.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
+1
i think that the way to go for now, or wait till the rework , they might give free respec