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[Suggestion] Grinding isn't fun, some ideas
binto1
Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 11 Arc User
I think we can all agree, grinding isn't fun, here are some ideas.
Let me start by saying that this isn't a rant. I'm not trying to bash Neverwinter or the Devs. I hope you will look at this as thoughtful constructive criticism. I've been playing NW for more than a year, so I speak from experience. Also IRL, I'm a 3D animator and game developer so I have some understanding of the situation. I understand that creating content is hard and involves lots and lots of man-hours. I also understand that creating repetitive quests is a way to stretch content. But in my opinion, not only is it not fun, it can cause players to leave. Most of the players in my guild have quit NW because they were just tired of it. I've actually inherited the guild because the leaders no longer play. Me, I stubbornly soldier on. But grinding is what caused me to quit WoW years ago and it may soon cause me to quit NW.
Let me try to identify where I think NW succeeds and where it fails. First off, Tyranny of Dragons is the grindiest Module so far. I haven't calculated it exactly, but it'll take well over two months to earn all the boons. Killing the same dragons and completing the same quests day after day for months just is not fun. Yes there's a skirmish and a dungeon too, but it's all just too repetitive and takes too long.
As for successes, I think the Dread Ring is closer to getting it right. The objectives are more modest and it's shorter. Shorter is good. To a degree, I think Ice Wind Dale also gets it right. Thirty-five days isn't too bad and there are enough quests and zones to keep it interesting enough. I liked the open PvP, even if the sides are often lopsided. I also liked the one random quest drop; Hammerstone Queen. That is a good idea, I think you should do more like that. However, I think the Heroic Encounters in IWD got it wrong. It's just too random. Not knowing when or where the next HE will be is awful. Hanging around waiting for something to happen, also awful.
I think another bright spot, where NW shines the most, are the Events. The CTAs, Tymora's, the various festivals, they are all good. I don't always participate a lot, but I think they are a really good addition to the game and they make NW seem more alive.
There may be few options to grinding. It may be that MMOs always have some. But, I think with a little effort you could make NW less repetitive and more fun.
So, here are a couple of suggestions:
Shorter content - but more of it. Every Module doesn't have to be an epic grind. I'd prefer shorter, more modest content. Being a little shorter means you can change it up more often.
Random quest drops - Like the Hammerstone Queen quest in IWD. More of these please. It would be fun to go into a zone and not know what quests you're going to have to do. You don't necessarily need to design more quests, just mix them up a bit more. A variation on that theme might be to allow players to trade quests. For example: Let's say that player X has an object that grants a certain quest. S/he could trade that object with another player for a different one. These quest objects could be tradable, but not sellable. It's a thought.
Start a whisper campaign - This is my best idea. Stop telling us everything you're going to do. Every time an event is planned, we know all about it in advance. Stop doing that! Get people talking, keep them guessing and shake things up! Predictable is boring, uncertain is exciting! For example: A giant Iron Golem is rampaging through Protector's Enclave! Why is it there? Is it a bug? Who knows? Kill it! What if a mysterious portal appears in Protector's Enclave? At first, players may talk about it in zone chat. "Oh, it's just a bug," they might say. Over the next few days, more portals appear. Soon, NPCs show up to ask adventurer's for help. Players need to investigate! What are these portals? Has Valindra found a new way to invade? You could extend this idea to any content in the game. Why does a zone have to remain static? Why not allow zombies to over-run the camp in the dread ring? "What's up with that!?" people will say. Maybe something is going on? Please, please please, tell me a story and keep me guessing about what's going on. Mysteries are fun! Lie to me, trick me, entertain me.
I don't know if any Devs will read this (or anyone else for that matter). These are some ideas, make of them what you will.
Better yet, hire me!
I love Neverwinter, I don't love grinding.
TLDR; NW is too grindy. Here are some ideas to shake things up.
Let me start by saying that this isn't a rant. I'm not trying to bash Neverwinter or the Devs. I hope you will look at this as thoughtful constructive criticism. I've been playing NW for more than a year, so I speak from experience. Also IRL, I'm a 3D animator and game developer so I have some understanding of the situation. I understand that creating content is hard and involves lots and lots of man-hours. I also understand that creating repetitive quests is a way to stretch content. But in my opinion, not only is it not fun, it can cause players to leave. Most of the players in my guild have quit NW because they were just tired of it. I've actually inherited the guild because the leaders no longer play. Me, I stubbornly soldier on. But grinding is what caused me to quit WoW years ago and it may soon cause me to quit NW.
Let me try to identify where I think NW succeeds and where it fails. First off, Tyranny of Dragons is the grindiest Module so far. I haven't calculated it exactly, but it'll take well over two months to earn all the boons. Killing the same dragons and completing the same quests day after day for months just is not fun. Yes there's a skirmish and a dungeon too, but it's all just too repetitive and takes too long.
As for successes, I think the Dread Ring is closer to getting it right. The objectives are more modest and it's shorter. Shorter is good. To a degree, I think Ice Wind Dale also gets it right. Thirty-five days isn't too bad and there are enough quests and zones to keep it interesting enough. I liked the open PvP, even if the sides are often lopsided. I also liked the one random quest drop; Hammerstone Queen. That is a good idea, I think you should do more like that. However, I think the Heroic Encounters in IWD got it wrong. It's just too random. Not knowing when or where the next HE will be is awful. Hanging around waiting for something to happen, also awful.
I think another bright spot, where NW shines the most, are the Events. The CTAs, Tymora's, the various festivals, they are all good. I don't always participate a lot, but I think they are a really good addition to the game and they make NW seem more alive.
There may be few options to grinding. It may be that MMOs always have some. But, I think with a little effort you could make NW less repetitive and more fun.
So, here are a couple of suggestions:
Shorter content - but more of it. Every Module doesn't have to be an epic grind. I'd prefer shorter, more modest content. Being a little shorter means you can change it up more often.
Random quest drops - Like the Hammerstone Queen quest in IWD. More of these please. It would be fun to go into a zone and not know what quests you're going to have to do. You don't necessarily need to design more quests, just mix them up a bit more. A variation on that theme might be to allow players to trade quests. For example: Let's say that player X has an object that grants a certain quest. S/he could trade that object with another player for a different one. These quest objects could be tradable, but not sellable. It's a thought.
Start a whisper campaign - This is my best idea. Stop telling us everything you're going to do. Every time an event is planned, we know all about it in advance. Stop doing that! Get people talking, keep them guessing and shake things up! Predictable is boring, uncertain is exciting! For example: A giant Iron Golem is rampaging through Protector's Enclave! Why is it there? Is it a bug? Who knows? Kill it! What if a mysterious portal appears in Protector's Enclave? At first, players may talk about it in zone chat. "Oh, it's just a bug," they might say. Over the next few days, more portals appear. Soon, NPCs show up to ask adventurer's for help. Players need to investigate! What are these portals? Has Valindra found a new way to invade? You could extend this idea to any content in the game. Why does a zone have to remain static? Why not allow zombies to over-run the camp in the dread ring? "What's up with that!?" people will say. Maybe something is going on? Please, please please, tell me a story and keep me guessing about what's going on. Mysteries are fun! Lie to me, trick me, entertain me.
I don't know if any Devs will read this (or anyone else for that matter). These are some ideas, make of them what you will.
Better yet, hire me!
I love Neverwinter, I don't love grinding.TLDR; NW is too grindy. Here are some ideas to shake things up.
Post edited by binto1 on
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Instead of dailies just have a giant questing campaign, different quest everyday progresses you towards boons and different rewards, short quests and you can only take 2 people. They get harder as you go and you have to use your mind and your sword to complete them. Whatever the devs do next please no more repetitive dailies or HEs
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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There is a problem with this idea. A lot of players go into hibernation after a big module because this game has little to no endgame worth doing (players say no thank you to heroic encounters and their RNG loot).
Announcing events in advance promotes the game and hopefully keeps players sticking around for a little bit longer. It also reinforces the ideas into player's minds to stay in the game throughout the current module and not merely quit and come back on module 5
Sharandar is a grind and ToD is a massive grind - I don't want to have to farm all 5 dragons every day on every toon.
IWD was decent, but requiring an HE as part of the daily has made it redundant now, as nobody is ever there.
I like the suggestion of whisper events - those would keep the game going as you can't just plan to be present and get drops.
Random quest drops are fun, too - for the first time.
But hey, I'm an INTP, I hate grinding/repeating, so maybe I'm biased.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Ahhh the awesome feeling when randomly I discovered the hidden boss in SP... Those were the days when Devs actually put some effort into making dungeon(s)... Good days were those...
First expansion did have some beautiful areas though so the environment was more beautiful in the first expansion then the second.
I still wonder what I will do with my 6 character slots? Seriously I have real life and I never plan to get all boons with all my characters. Oh yes crafting "bot" characters i.e log in and craft with them.
This post was not meant as rant and I am thankful for this Wonderful game.
Yes, I like that too, the exploring sensation on a MMO is good, if there are hidden NPCs, quest and foes (strong ones), I don't like this mechanic to go from NPC to NPC on a given path...
I like what the O.P. is saying as well, Devs made these expansive areas and they fell into their own cookie cutter molding as well, quick and dirty creation the way I see it. Make it seem like it's something new, but in reality.... it is not. I'm am getting very tired of playing the same newold content. I mean really how many different ways do they expect one to play the same mold and fool themselves into saying it's NEW.
I would love to play some of the longer Community content, but I do the short ones to get AD, there is no way I am going to play a few hours of Community made story line of quests for a few astral diamonds when I can do shorter ones in an hour and have it completed, I would like to see extra AD for completed longer community mods and/or complete storys that community content people created. As I am sure thee is some really good stuff in there but what am I to do if I use that time for community stuff then there is no time for farming...as we all know how much we like farming so someone has to suffer, so the community content people don't get any love while events are on.
Another thing that has to be done is to get all the ubers on their own server, and let them contend with their own economy because that is another thing that is playing havoc with Neverwinter, not that I have a lot to spend but their is no way in Heck I am giving a stranger on the exchange my " very hard earned " AD at 500=1 Zen they could be someone that got theirs but illegal means how would I know.
That is a whole other thread, Devs had their opportunity to deal with that and they let it fly by now the Neverwinter economy is messed up to.
Cheers
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
I also wish the Foundry got more love ... but that's a whole different discussion.
You got it there.. TOO Grindy.. Dread Ring was the way..
i ll move to my suggestion for the Reward System:
- Put 20hours timer upon completion on all Epic Dungeons
- Add a dungeon quest giver at protectors enclave that gives the following quest for every epic dungeon: "complete <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dungeon 20 times and you will get a list with its rewards to pick from"
A system like this will guarantee you no matter how unlucky you are, if u complete the dungeon you want to farm once per day for 20 days you get a piece of your choice from the loot. It will also make the content last longer overall but consume less time every day.
Being able to run EPIC content unlimited times a day to grind something and dont even getting it for weeks dont help anyone.
- Content loses its value very fast
- Hardcore Players get bored fast because they grind new content 30 times a day
- Casual Players get frustrated because its takes weeks to farm something and they are not sure if they even get it
The Reward System i suggest will fight all of this. (it can also be added to epic skirmishes for 3 completions per day timer for exampe)
Players will be forced out of grind, will get the loot eventually and have more time daily to participate in other content (pvp,guantlegrym,events) or play Alts.
FORWARD THIS TO THE DEVS ITS AWESOME xD
Just feels way too much like work for it to be called a game. I understand there needs to be a way to stretch content but there also has to be a way to experience the game without some virtual dice always telling you no. No we don't need the last two boons, artifact gear or anything else in the game for that matter but it's there and we want it.
Rant over.
Would love for the devs to take these ideas to mod 5
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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All of that said I do think some improvements can be made. The OP brings up some good points as do others here.
...
Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
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I don't think that is a dying breed. That is just a rare breed. Grinding for the sake of grinding without endgame content is not really a good feeling for ANY gamer generation.
Me and a lot of people who are providing our disappointment over this grinding system have done our fair share of grinding. I grinded Castle Never for hours every day over a long period of time back when it was worth doing.
However, it needs to be both challenging AND rewarding. The dailies and boon grinding in the past 4 modules have mostly been neither.
Yea, I like farming and grinding (not in the way it's presented on NWO), but for what?, to run a dungeon on 25 minutes instead of 40?, if there's no goal it's just a tedious work for min max your character... I would love if "beat a challenging content" were part of the goal too.
Back then, you could earn considerable cash farming dungeons so there's that.
The only reason you bring up running a dungeon in 25minutes instead of 40 minutes as an argument is because this game doesn't have any raids, heroic dungeons, 10 man endgame content, seige battles, guild battles, more PVP modes etc etc.
That is why you cannot provide tangible challenges and rewards that most good MMOs can easily provide
It took me forever with my HR to get the gloves, but I finally got them. I totally understand your frustration. Hope you get them soon!
If so much depends on RNG alone how can I feel rewarded when the desired loot drops? It is just luck. It can drop on the first try or after hundreds of tries. To me a reward is something I'm able to work for, knowing what I have to do to get it.
In no way was I talking about things that are randomly chosen in this game.
However RNG has been a thing in every MMORPG I've ever played. You'll never be guaranteed to get exactly what you want every time. In fact, Neverwinter seems less grindy than some games I've played.
...
Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
I also have been turned off by the level of grindiness. I basically only come in for events now. It's the only thing to look forward to. Tyranny of Dragons was just not at all interesting to me. So far, all I am finding is the same kind of quests we got at the beginning of the game with a different coat of paint.
Talk to the NPC, interact with the Thing and/or kill n number of mobs, kill a boss, trigger reward chest. Do again all week and maybe progress in the campaign for ONE character. I have six. My sister has twelve.
How droll.
Race on a frozen course? Now that was fun. Looking forward to winter.
I'm also in the same boat where I have previously spent money in this game, but no longer have the desire to do so. I just got the Dragonborn Legend Pack, mainly for the account-wide unlocks (instant purple artifact, bag, etc). Converted diamonds the whole way, didn't pay a cent. Wasn't always easy with the economy how it is, but this is a path that requires patience anyway, and I wasn't so mentally invested anymore that I couldn't wait for it.
I hope to see some improvements as well. I doubt it'll happen, as this game's publisher seems to have a poor reputation from what I've been hearing, but time will tell. The devteam has come up with some great and fun and exciting things, I just hope they get to do more of them so that the game stays fresh.
Color me cynical, though.
On an unrelated note, my video crashed as I was writing this, and I was irritated that I was gonna have to try and remember it. Nope, auto-saved. Whoever on the web devteam put in autosave for forum posts? Thank you. They should give you a prize or something.
Dread Ring was the way to go. You could simply advance with the boons doing a simple lair quest, and that was alt-friendly. Or you could do all the quests for the extra goodies, get better gauntlets, and other stuff if you wanted so. You didn't *have* to do all the quests every day, they were an option.
IWD followed roughly the same path, you could do a single quest to improve reputation, and a number of additional quests to unlock the boons (or pick whatever you wanted from the campaign, once you have maxed the reputation). It was a bit more grindy than DR, but still doable.
ToD is a nightmare. A linear path of many repetitive tasks you have to do to unlock content, that is far more tedious than a single quest like R and IwD, and a lot more quests to unlock boons and stuff... unlocking the whole campaign is a matter of literally hundreds of quests..., as opposed to a few dozen quests for other campaigns (i'll do some math to prove it eventually)!