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*NEW* Future Direction of PVP! Suggestion to re-work Domination
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Domination in this game has always had "issues" from the get go. From Perma TRs, to Sentinel GWFs, the entire premise of "domination" has not worked efficiently as it could.
The reason is: CONTESTING causes ZERO points.
This leads to the issue of creating builds that are optimal for pure survival rather than team play or dealing damage or working as a group. This takes the focus OFF of team play, and puts builds and players into the position of "backcapping" as an ultimate meta.
I would like to bring PVP BACK! Make it much more exciting again. There are obvious issues with matchmaking so that is not what I am after here but possible changes to Domination that would make the game much more appealing.
*NEW* Domination: DONT awarding points based on TIME of uncontested node holding.
- HOW THIS WORKS:
The game is played to a set score (say 10,000 points). Use the EXACT same "point" system you have in the game now, EXCEPT! You DONT get points for holding nodes, JUST capturing them. So the game would unfold JUST as it is now, without the "ticking" of points.
Kill someone, +50 points. Assist +25 points. Defend a node +150 points. Capture a node +300 points. Use everything you have now, BUT! No "ticking" of points.
NOTE: For "capping" purposes the +300 is divided among the people that actually captured. So if 3 people cap, its +100 each for a TOTAL for the team of +300.
This puts the incentive BACK on working as a team, fighting in groups as a team and not a "solo-rogue (not the class)" play where one person "backcaps". Will you still see that? Sure, but it changes the FOCUS of the game back to player versus player battle, rather than cheese mechanics.
If someone tries to "rogue" backcap, it now creates a DIS-advantage to the team because if 2 people go to protect the node, one person will get a +150 node defense and the other likely a +25 assist, so this would give a +175 points in killing the "backcapper" PLUS re-capping the node for another +300 who if LUCKY got the cap for +300 points making it a NET LOSS for the team to do that.
- THE KICKER:
PUT A TIME LIMIT on the game. Rather than counting the duration of each game, put a SET limit of say 15 minutes and it counts down. Team with the most points at that time wins.
DUE to players getting 3 capped and sitting in spawn. The ONLY modification I would add is if a team has 3 uncontested points, BRING BACK "point ticking" to the game, but at an accelerated rate of say 50 points every 1 second.
What this does is when you have a 3 capped game (which would get you a MINIMUM of 900 points) You then start ticking ALOT of points just to finish the match. If even ONE node is contested, ZERO points tick. What this would due, is DRASTICALLY speed up the time games finish, allowing people MORE pvp games more often. Getting LESS frustrated with PVP - bad matchups.
@ 50 every second, it would take only a minute and a half to get to 10,000. When you add the fact it takes a few minutes to three cap, the +300 (x3) to three cap and probably ATLEAST 5 kills (plus assists). Youll be already at a few thousand points.
CONCLUSION:
1) These suggestions remove the cheese of "capping" nodes and puts attention back on team play.
2) A time limit insures no "drawn out" 2 hour games. Fast paced matches!
3) A 3 cap "ticking" system to speed up wins/losses in the event of a 3 cap game.
Now you have more PVP centered around TEAM BATTLE and working together rather than node holding. Players wont create "unkillable" builds but rather builds that synergize around team work and team play.
The reason is: CONTESTING causes ZERO points.
This leads to the issue of creating builds that are optimal for pure survival rather than team play or dealing damage or working as a group. This takes the focus OFF of team play, and puts builds and players into the position of "backcapping" as an ultimate meta.
I would like to bring PVP BACK! Make it much more exciting again. There are obvious issues with matchmaking so that is not what I am after here but possible changes to Domination that would make the game much more appealing.
*NEW* Domination: DONT awarding points based on TIME of uncontested node holding.
- HOW THIS WORKS:
The game is played to a set score (say 10,000 points). Use the EXACT same "point" system you have in the game now, EXCEPT! You DONT get points for holding nodes, JUST capturing them. So the game would unfold JUST as it is now, without the "ticking" of points.
Kill someone, +50 points. Assist +25 points. Defend a node +150 points. Capture a node +300 points. Use everything you have now, BUT! No "ticking" of points.
NOTE: For "capping" purposes the +300 is divided among the people that actually captured. So if 3 people cap, its +100 each for a TOTAL for the team of +300.
This puts the incentive BACK on working as a team, fighting in groups as a team and not a "solo-rogue (not the class)" play where one person "backcaps". Will you still see that? Sure, but it changes the FOCUS of the game back to player versus player battle, rather than cheese mechanics.
If someone tries to "rogue" backcap, it now creates a DIS-advantage to the team because if 2 people go to protect the node, one person will get a +150 node defense and the other likely a +25 assist, so this would give a +175 points in killing the "backcapper" PLUS re-capping the node for another +300 who if LUCKY got the cap for +300 points making it a NET LOSS for the team to do that.
- THE KICKER:
PUT A TIME LIMIT on the game. Rather than counting the duration of each game, put a SET limit of say 15 minutes and it counts down. Team with the most points at that time wins.
DUE to players getting 3 capped and sitting in spawn. The ONLY modification I would add is if a team has 3 uncontested points, BRING BACK "point ticking" to the game, but at an accelerated rate of say 50 points every 1 second.
What this does is when you have a 3 capped game (which would get you a MINIMUM of 900 points) You then start ticking ALOT of points just to finish the match. If even ONE node is contested, ZERO points tick. What this would due, is DRASTICALLY speed up the time games finish, allowing people MORE pvp games more often. Getting LESS frustrated with PVP - bad matchups.
@ 50 every second, it would take only a minute and a half to get to 10,000. When you add the fact it takes a few minutes to three cap, the +300 (x3) to three cap and probably ATLEAST 5 kills (plus assists). Youll be already at a few thousand points.
CONCLUSION:
1) These suggestions remove the cheese of "capping" nodes and puts attention back on team play.
2) A time limit insures no "drawn out" 2 hour games. Fast paced matches!
3) A 3 cap "ticking" system to speed up wins/losses in the event of a 3 cap game.
Now you have more PVP centered around TEAM BATTLE and working together rather than node holding. Players wont create "unkillable" builds but rather builds that synergize around team work and team play.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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/10charsdoh
Either its about gear or the balance of PVE/PVP?
Because id probably disagree, and BTW for Queen Calous, this is how Destiny's PVP works which is actually pretty fun. Just FYI
A simpler solution is to add in a team death match mode. Remove the control points entirely. You earn points by killing or assisting. Match ends when X points are reached or a time limit. I'd do 10 minutes, max.
The idea of you would improve it but you has the simple problem that the PvP in Neverwinter is only Battlepower against Battlepower. If there is an imbalance of this matches are easily decided. In Neverwinter this kind of balance is easily falling apart because Neverwinter is an PvE Designed Game. And even it would be build as PvP MMORPG the succes of good PvP is not guaranteed.
I've to agree to this statement (not the trashtalking one...). Why I do agree? Because scheduled premade matches with similiar geared/skilled people with even teams (rainbow) take way too long. 2-3 hours matches - stalemating is not fun. Even with rotations. People are able to survive for so long that you can't really clear nodes.
If you watch old premades (check GTRL or Hzarn, they've amazing matches online) the matches were around 45-60 minutes. Thats a good amount of time for a competitive match. 2-3 hours (and even longer) is not fun anymore - it's a pain in the ***.
And yet people have the chance to get more tankier. TR's with 40-50k HP, GFs with 64k HP and so on... Especially the small map with a floating DCs... ye, gg.
@OP
I like the dominiation mode how it is. There was alot of strategy and tactic involved. Also fast rotations and good calls were needed.
No doubt there need to be more modes and maps tho'
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
In all seriousness though, I think Domination is just fine how it is.
I do like the ideas brought up in this post as others have brought up as before, but I would rather see a new game mode to implement new things. Domination works as Domination should work.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Once you enter pvp everyone is equipped with identical gear and stats.
Nobody is OP and everyone is forced to work as a team.
Actually GF would be VERY powerful and needed in groups. Would it remove TRs? Currently yes - but we know they are being worked on. So.....
nuudlz : "check GTRL or Hzarn, they've amazing matches online" Yeah these were the days huh... The game is COMPLETELY different now.
kolevra: This is in the OP "NOTE: For "capping" purposes the +300 is divided among the people that actually captured." So if you had 5 players they each get 60 points. 4 players each get 75 points. 3 players each get 100 points ETC.
bobherkamer: horrible Idea because it removes ALL incentive of farming AND creating builds for PVP. Half the fun is testing builds that rely on gear/enchants/mechanics. If everyone was even, it would ruin the game even more
Yep, it is. Still I prefer shorter matches for premades. But that's just IMHO. And please don't get me wrong. I really like different game modes - I just wouldn't like to see the actual domination to be changed. Of course there could be different modes for domination so players could have a choice what they want to play.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Gear also allows easier testing to avoid imbalance. Devs would be able to make minor adjustments.
This could allow for player vs player combat. It also avoids the roflstomp.
The idea of pvp for me is skill and teamwork decides the winner. Not how much ad you have etc.
Some argue that they worked hard to get where they are. I do agree. The pve needs real challenge.
So does pvp. There is no fun stomping noobs and no fun playing for 2 hours.
There does need to be a new system like the op said, however I believe, like others have stated, that balance is not possible with the massive disparity between players gear.
The best players will still be on top but the games will be more fun.
Yeah I was thinking about this and one of the MAJOR things that has changed is the time after hit you stay in combat. This used to be like 2-3 seconds, now its like 8. That makes matches ALOT longer because its so much harder for players to go back to home node and help clear it without losing mid or far node.
If we had more than 1 gameTYPE id be fine with domination - KINDA. Because the matches are still super long and boring when its stalemate after stalemate and they last 2-3 hours long. Either way they should put a 45 minute timer on it TOPS.
But this is an idea - since they refuse to give us more PVP, to alter the current so its more a mix of both worlds. Also, its what Destiny has done with domination and it actually works pretty well IMO.
Yeah but Destiny isn't an MMO man.... It's an FPS. I don't think using an FPS game that's been out for less than a week as a design template for MMO PvP is a very good idea... Just sayen. Granted it has a class system and some other similarities, but it's more FPS than RPG.
I would also like to point out that every MMO I've ever played (and most that I have not played) had a PvP game mode that worked exactly like Domination does. WoW, GW2, AoC, Rift, SWTOR, ect ect. They all have point contention, and still do. There is a reason for this.
If you do not have point contention than you have a Zerg Fest. Ask for an arena mode if that's what you want.
Domination is fine and it's one of the few things in the game they haven't ruined yet (the mount delay messed it up a little but it's not a huge deal).
Actually Destiny IS an MMO FPS, the gear grind is pretty massive in that game, once you hit the lvl cap (20) which takes about 16-20 hours (about the same it takes 60 in NW) then you can actually level to 30 but only gain levels on gear, so end game is a MASSIVE gear grind - probably more so than NW even.
But lets look at a key difference in the "standard" WoWs Domination (AB) it was click to capture and ZERO contesting. So it didnt work at all like NWs PVP. You didnt have to stand on the node to capture, you couldnt create a cheese "stalemate" build, it was kill the enemy and capture or try and ninja the point.
I suggested THAT as well in a post too, remove contesting - it either ticks for team A or team B once captured. Heck you could even throw a click cast on there that could allow you to ninja the node, or work with a controller to keep them controlled while you capture. THAT would add alot more variables to the game IMO.
Like I said before, I dont think it would be a problem if there were alot more forms of PVP and it was ALL wrapped into ONE single PVP Q - so you never knew what TYPE of game youd get. This would force players to build accordingly and not try to just build for one type of PVP game - which has been a HUGE part of the balance issues.
If they introduced a "slayer" type game, or an "arena" type game or a "oddball" type game ALL wrapped into one Q, youd have much different PVP builds and much different VIABLE options for PVP.
Also, I think regardless of what happens, Domination should countdown from a SET timer, rather than count up. Team with the most points at say 30 minutes wins. Caps matches duration.
I also think even in the current Domination they should award points exponentially rather than linear. So 1 node = 1 tick a second, 2 nodes = 3 ticks a second, 3 nodes = 6 ticks a second. Thats if you wanted to keep it the same.
This puts much more emphasis on 2-3 capping so a team that can dominate the map for a short time builds up alot of points compared to a team who can contest two nodes and only hold 1 all day long. Again removes SOME of that "cheese".
Also, having everyone get the same gear when enter a match is not the solution either. This whole idea that "pure" PvP means forcing everyone to be "equal" is again wrong. The whole idea behind any MMO is the acquisition of gear to improve your performance. When a newly minted level 60 is given the exact same gear as someone who has played the game for a year with multiple characters, all it does is disenfranchise the veterans. What's the point then, for someone who is PvP focused, to even play any other part of the game? There is no need for the acquisition of gear because you can't use any of it in the part of the game you enjoy the most. I would wager money that if you had the choice of two different game modes for Domination, one in which everyone was given the same gear, and one in which you wore the gear you had earned and tweaked to your tastes, it wouldn't be the standard gear one that would see the most use.
All of these suggestions are simply bandaids that cover up, but don't fix, the underlying issue: Matchmaking. Right now the game prioritizes shorter queue times over equality of opponents. Add a tier system, introduce more match modes, allow Foundry authors the ability to great PvP maps, and seriously think through the implications of each new piece of gear or class skill you add to the game. Do this and it will go further towards addressing the true underlying issues of PvP than simply slapping a bandage on top of an open wound.
Actually Destiny IS an MMO FPS, the gear grind is pretty massive in that game, once you hit the lvl cap (20) which takes about 16-20 hours (about the same it takes 60 in NW) then you can actually level to 30 but only gain levels on gear, so end game is a MASSIVE gear grind - probably more so than NW even.
Actually Bungie has been pretty vocal, and adamant about the fact that Destiny is NOT an MMO, although, they do concede that it has several similarities. There are about a thousand Developer interviews about this floating around the net.
But lets look at a key difference in the "standard" WoWs Domination (AB) it was click to capture and ZERO contesting. So it didnt work at all like NWs PVP. You didnt have to stand on the node to capture, you couldnt create a cheese "stalemate" build, it was kill the enemy and capture or try and ninja the point.
Whereas WoW game modes such as AB, EotS, and BfG do not have a mechanic that LOCKS the point, "Defending" and "Stalemating" (Read: CONTENDING) is a LARGE part of a winning strategy. You could not simply cap a node and move on, you HAD to leave a defender to stop the enemy from click capturing. This fact DOES lead to people creating "cheese" builds (or defensive, node holding builds aka: Bunker builds as they are called in competitive PvP). There are other rolls that require specific builds, Roamer, Forward Assaulter, ect. ect. All these are required to be competitive in a Domination type game mode. This is the first example of a continueing theme which illustrates that the Game Mode is NOT the problem, Class Balance and broken mechanics ARE.
I suggested THAT as well in a post too, remove contesting - it either ticks for team A or team B once captured. Heck you could even throw a click cast on there that could allow you to ninja the node, or work with a controller to keep them controlled while you capture. THAT would add alot more variables to the game IMO.
To me, node contesting is encouraged by a "click cast" system just as much, or even more than, in a Node Lock system. I do not see the need to change from one to the other. The purpose of both of these mechanics is to create a need for defensive strategies. If you have a click cast system in place than you put a defender at a captured node to prevent the enemy from sneaking in and flipping the node, then the defender STALEMATES or KILLS the attacker. The purpose of the stalemate is to prevent the node flip until someone can float through and help clear the node. In Neverwinter, you leave a defender on a node to STALEMATE or KILL the attacker. Again the purpose of the stalemate is to prevent node flip until someone can drop by and help clear. The difference between the two is that with click cast/no node lock, the defending team has no reason to send additional resources to deal with the assaulter, you just keep on ticking points so why would you send anyone back there? Now lets throw a Perma TR back there to sit NEAR the node (no need to be on it as the node cannot be flipped by simply standing on it). All he does now is throw a dagger at the assaulter every time he tries to click flip the node which interrupts him, causing a fail. Now put a CW in there, now put an HR there, now put a SW there... See where this is heading? Its heading to very bad places. Take away click cast but keep it so you cannot "Lock" a node, and now you have a situation where putting a perma TR on a node to defend is the best possible choice as there is NO defense against it. With contention at least the enemy is NOT ticking points while your assaulter is dealing with the lameness. In this instance removing Node Locking actually compounds one of the problems you are trying to solve
Like I said before, I dont think it would be a problem if there were alot more forms of PVP and it was ALL wrapped into ONE single PVP Q - so you never knew what TYPE of game youd get. This would force players to build accordingly and not try to just build for one type of PVP game - which has been a HUGE part of the balance issues.
For a second I was on board with this statement, it seemed like a valid point. However it is not. No matter the game type (CTF, Domination, Arena, whatever) you are going to have ROLES. Roamer, Defender, Point Clearer, Support, they all require specific builds designed for a specific purpose regardless of the game mode.
If they introduced a "slayer" type game, or an "arena" type game or a "oddball" type game ALL wrapped into one Q, youd have much different PVP builds and much different VIABLE options for PVP.
For slayer you would require DPS and Tankies, support maybe. Arena, same. CTF, you have Runners (roamers) DPS (assaulters) Defenders (Bunkers). This will always be the case. Changing to a system that allows defenders to continue ticking points while defending is NOT going to eliminate any of this.
Also, I think regardless of what happens, Domination should countdown from a SET timer, rather than count up. Team with the most points at say 30 minutes wins. Caps matches duration.
This I have no problem with this at all. However if there weren't such large class balance issues, and if Tenacity was never implemented, the match times would be much more reasonable (Lets put back what they broke rather than redesigning an entire gamemode so that what was broken is slightly less broken.... ***TWEAKS NOT COMPLETE REWORKS*** how has this lesson not been learned?!?!?!
I also think even in the current Domination they should award points exponentially rather than linear. So 1 node = 1 tick a second, 2 nodes = 3 ticks a second, 3 nodes = 6 ticks a second. Thats if you wanted to keep it the same.
This would lead to even more turteling which is what you seem to have a problem with. If you can secure 2 nodes and win, then there is no motivation to push. If you own a node the enemy will have to throw ALL their resources at you in order to take it back because there is no way to flip or contend a node without totally wiping the enemy team. The defending team can also get a trickle of resurrected players constantly heading to mid which can prevent the enemy capture, which is not necessarily a bad thing for the assaulters, until you realize that even though you are technically winning the battle at that point, you are losing points constantly. Node Locking prevents this.
Without Node Locking in Neverwinter Domination there is less motivation to move your team around. You are not rotating people to clear, or to flip the node so that you can bleed points. You are not splitting your team up strategically. You have no means to slow enemy progression down while you readjust your team/strategy. You have less need for class variety, and different roles. PvP becomes a DPS/control Zerg, and that sucks for everyone.
The bottom line here is that Node Locking is NOT the problem, and removing it would create even more issues than we have now. In an effort to prevent some of the problems that would likely arise, you have created what is essentially an entirely new game mode. You are over complicating it (much like the Devs have been doing with changes) Domination is NOT the problem. Broken class mechanics and vast balance issues ARE. I, for one would rather have the Devs spending their programing time elsewhere. I'm pretty sure most people agree.
This seems like it ought to be a no-brainer for the devs. Rather than trying to balance classes for PVP and PVE, just have a separate tab for your PVP gear (and PVP could only be done with PVP gear). This way if a class becomes OP in PVP after a patch, they just make adjustments to the gear for that class rather than messing with abilities which affect PVE.
For those that don't like that idea, they should just implement more PVP types. So, for example, the devs could simply retain current PVP (or change it as the OP suggests, I think a lot of it is good), and people with vast resources for their builds and preference for premades will have a place to go. Everyone else will have a place where they don't have to worry as much about the faceroll (not that it wouldn't happen, but at least it wouldn't be 17,18,19+k vs 9k).
I'll add a plug for the OP as well. I really like the point idea (although the cap being distributed seems like it would promote solo caps, going against the ideal of teamwork promotion). I really like the time limit. I really like the effort to bring fun back to PVP, as I don't PVP any more due to [insert common complaint here].
One more thought for those that don't like [insert PVP change here]: my wish is that the devs implement additional game types and to let the players decide which they like best.
before this happens, PvP is always going to be a joke. even with game modes. Its stupid how you just go into a match and the gap between geared and undergeared is just horrendous, it is amplified by having only 5v5. If they had some 10vs10 and 15vs15 maps It may not seem so obvious (where 1 person has a less likely chance to change the outcome of a game). The more I think about PvP the more i miss the battlegrounds from WoW (shame their combat system is so dated)
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Agree with KING Calous. Unnerf mounts and bring another domination map and another pvp mode. I think that is really whats needed. I'd also like to see more variety for open world instead of BID. That was an opportunity they missed the boat on.
Also based on your premise, by not having contesting and giving points that are split, you could have the opposite effect. Now a greedy point player who wants to be on the top sneaks away to cap a point to get the full 300 instead of 150 or below. People aleady do that now and it would probably make it worse.