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Bilethorn, Plaguefire and Terror - Relationship, Balance and improvements
yoadoad
Member Posts: 182 Bounty Hunter
There is something that needs to be discussed about these enchantments...
Let's look at their normal versions:
Plague Fire Enchantment - You deal an additional 5.5% of weapon damage as Fire damage with your powers. Additionaly you burn your foe for 1.8% of weapon damage as Fire damage every 1 seconds for 3 seconds and induce terror in your foe, reducing their Defense by 10%. This effect stacks up to 3 times.
Terror enchantment - You deal an additional 8.3% of weapon damage as Necrotic damage with every swing and induce terror in your foe, reducing their defense by 10%.
Bilethorn Enchantment- You deal an additional 5.2% of weapon damage as Poison damage with your powers. Your foe takes an additional 8.1% of weapon damage as poison damage after 4 seconds.
Flaming Enchantment- You deal an additional 7.5% of weapon damage as Fire damage with your powers. Additionally you burn your foe for 2.5% of weapon damage as Fire damage every 1 seconds for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 3 times.
So, the reason I put them together is that these enchantments are similar to each other, with plaguefire having similar effects to both enchantments. Now, plaguefire has always been the "tight on budget" weapon enchantment because it was more common, with Terror and Bilethorn seeing heavier use. (and it should be like that, since plaguefire has more lesser's on the market than Bile and Terror's shards).
However, in my opinion, Plaguefire is better than both Terror and Bilethorn. Why? Well, Plaguefire's effects stack, while the others enchantments do not. So plaguefire can get 30% reduction while Terror gets 10% reduction, and Plaguefire burns 5.4% weapon damage every 3 seconds while Bilethorn poisions 8.1% every 4 seconds.
Let's look at Flaming VS Bilethorn. Flaming has 7.5% weapon damage, and 7.5% additional weapon damage over 3 seconds. Bilethorn has 5.2% weapon damage and 8.1% damage AFTER 4 seconds. Not only does Flaming beat Bilethorn head on by 2.3% more pure damage, but Flaming also wins with DoT. Yeah, 8.1% damage AFTER 4 seconds is NOT as high as 7.5% damage OVER 3 seconds. Say you PvP, and the battle lasts 12 seconds. You do 8.1% * 3 = 24.3% DoT with bilethorn, or 7.5% * 4 = 30% DoT with Flaming.
What needs to be done in my opinion? I think stacks should be added to both Terror & Bilethorn. Not 3 stacks, but 2 stacks make sense. Also, Bilethorn should do about the same damage as Terror. Why the dropoff? You get Terror & Bilethorn enchantments in the same way. Since the Bilethorn nerf no one has been using it, the enchantment has been rendered almost useless. It needs to be boosted in some way.
Also, I see Bilethorn and Terror as alternatives to the Vorpal that everybody seem to be using. Bilethorn in it's current state can't compete with Vorpal, Terror sometimes make sense for some classes already. Why not boost Bilethorn so it could be an alternative as well? It has an interesting effect. Just needs to be boosted back to be useful.
Here are my suggestions:
Suggestion 1: Bilethorn - Lower the poison time from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, or double the damage after 4 seconds.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Bilethorn performs bad compared to the other weapon enchantments, even though it is of the same tier. In the OP, when I compared Flaming and Bilethorn, Flaming won both with direct damage per swing and with DoT damage. (Forget the plaguefire comparison since it bothers you that bad). There shouldn't be a reason for Bilethorn to be worse than Flaming at it's current state, they're of the same tier, similar effect, one is better than the other?
2. Introducing a high DoT weapon enchantment could add a different playstyle which relies less on critical hits and bursts & rely more on DoT damage which could harass your opponent greatly.
Suggestion 2: Terror - Increase the Armor reduction of the foe by 1.5.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Terror is one of these enchantments that do high weapon damage but has an additional effect that is too weak to really change anything. With high weapon damage AND higher armor reduction, Terror would be a solid option for both low crit-high power players and for players who want to support their party by weakening stronger targets.
Suggestion 3: Flaming - Increase the weapon damage so it would match Terror.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Like I said, Bilethorn and Flaming are similar to one another, except what I'd suggest is- since Bilethorn should be the superior DoT enchantment, Flaming should be the superior front damage enchantment.
Suggestion 4: Frost - Remove the cooldown from the Recovery
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. I know I haven't talked about Frost until now, this is because Frost is so uncommon that I forgot about it. Frost suffers from an effect that is not too useful both on the PvE scene and the PvP scene. Why does it have a 20s cooldown on it's special ability? It's not like it's a game-changing-mega-enchantment. Yeah, recovery damage could be a pain... So what? How is lowering an enemy's recovery different than lowering his armor?
Look, the point of this entire post is just to boost some of the weaker enchantments. Of course everybody runs with Plaguefire and Vorpal right now, look at how weak some of these enchantments are. Especially Bilethorn and Frost. They are terrible. But improving these enchantments could add some variety and different styles of play which are much needed in my opinion when compared to the heavy burst damage popular style.
What do you guys think?
Let's look at their normal versions:
Plague Fire Enchantment - You deal an additional 5.5% of weapon damage as Fire damage with your powers. Additionaly you burn your foe for 1.8% of weapon damage as Fire damage every 1 seconds for 3 seconds and induce terror in your foe, reducing their Defense by 10%. This effect stacks up to 3 times.
Terror enchantment - You deal an additional 8.3% of weapon damage as Necrotic damage with every swing and induce terror in your foe, reducing their defense by 10%.
Bilethorn Enchantment- You deal an additional 5.2% of weapon damage as Poison damage with your powers. Your foe takes an additional 8.1% of weapon damage as poison damage after 4 seconds.
Flaming Enchantment- You deal an additional 7.5% of weapon damage as Fire damage with your powers. Additionally you burn your foe for 2.5% of weapon damage as Fire damage every 1 seconds for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 3 times.
So, the reason I put them together is that these enchantments are similar to each other, with plaguefire having similar effects to both enchantments. Now, plaguefire has always been the "tight on budget" weapon enchantment because it was more common, with Terror and Bilethorn seeing heavier use. (and it should be like that, since plaguefire has more lesser's on the market than Bile and Terror's shards).
However, in my opinion, Plaguefire is better than both Terror and Bilethorn. Why? Well, Plaguefire's effects stack, while the others enchantments do not. So plaguefire can get 30% reduction while Terror gets 10% reduction, and Plaguefire burns 5.4% weapon damage every 3 seconds while Bilethorn poisions 8.1% every 4 seconds.
Let's look at Flaming VS Bilethorn. Flaming has 7.5% weapon damage, and 7.5% additional weapon damage over 3 seconds. Bilethorn has 5.2% weapon damage and 8.1% damage AFTER 4 seconds. Not only does Flaming beat Bilethorn head on by 2.3% more pure damage, but Flaming also wins with DoT. Yeah, 8.1% damage AFTER 4 seconds is NOT as high as 7.5% damage OVER 3 seconds. Say you PvP, and the battle lasts 12 seconds. You do 8.1% * 3 = 24.3% DoT with bilethorn, or 7.5% * 4 = 30% DoT with Flaming.
What needs to be done in my opinion? I think stacks should be added to both Terror & Bilethorn. Not 3 stacks, but 2 stacks make sense. Also, Bilethorn should do about the same damage as Terror. Why the dropoff? You get Terror & Bilethorn enchantments in the same way. Since the Bilethorn nerf no one has been using it, the enchantment has been rendered almost useless. It needs to be boosted in some way.
Also, I see Bilethorn and Terror as alternatives to the Vorpal that everybody seem to be using. Bilethorn in it's current state can't compete with Vorpal, Terror sometimes make sense for some classes already. Why not boost Bilethorn so it could be an alternative as well? It has an interesting effect. Just needs to be boosted back to be useful.
Here are my suggestions:
Suggestion 1: Bilethorn - Lower the poison time from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, or double the damage after 4 seconds.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Bilethorn performs bad compared to the other weapon enchantments, even though it is of the same tier. In the OP, when I compared Flaming and Bilethorn, Flaming won both with direct damage per swing and with DoT damage. (Forget the plaguefire comparison since it bothers you that bad). There shouldn't be a reason for Bilethorn to be worse than Flaming at it's current state, they're of the same tier, similar effect, one is better than the other?
2. Introducing a high DoT weapon enchantment could add a different playstyle which relies less on critical hits and bursts & rely more on DoT damage which could harass your opponent greatly.
Suggestion 2: Terror - Increase the Armor reduction of the foe by 1.5.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Terror is one of these enchantments that do high weapon damage but has an additional effect that is too weak to really change anything. With high weapon damage AND higher armor reduction, Terror would be a solid option for both low crit-high power players and for players who want to support their party by weakening stronger targets.
Suggestion 3: Flaming - Increase the weapon damage so it would match Terror.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Like I said, Bilethorn and Flaming are similar to one another, except what I'd suggest is- since Bilethorn should be the superior DoT enchantment, Flaming should be the superior front damage enchantment.
Suggestion 4: Frost - Remove the cooldown from the Recovery
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. I know I haven't talked about Frost until now, this is because Frost is so uncommon that I forgot about it. Frost suffers from an effect that is not too useful both on the PvE scene and the PvP scene. Why does it have a 20s cooldown on it's special ability? It's not like it's a game-changing-mega-enchantment. Yeah, recovery damage could be a pain... So what? How is lowering an enemy's recovery different than lowering his armor?
Look, the point of this entire post is just to boost some of the weaker enchantments. Of course everybody runs with Plaguefire and Vorpal right now, look at how weak some of these enchantments are. Especially Bilethorn and Frost. They are terrible. But improving these enchantments could add some variety and different styles of play which are much needed in my opinion when compared to the heavy burst damage popular style.
What do you guys think?
Post edited by yoadoad on
0
Comments
Edit- Doesn't invalidate what you are saying, but it does decrease the contrast a bit.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
First thing that needs done is a renaming of PF if anything involving PF is to be done. The fact is, they are named incorrectly- there is no lesser PF.
There are-
PF - Currently mislabeled Lesser PF.
Greater PF - Currently called PF
and
Perfect PF - Currently fooling people that it is only a Rank 9, when it is actually Rank 10 by calling itself 'Greater.'
OP is comparing all of the weapon enchants with a full grade higher PF.
And it is well known that some of the enchantments under perform. So they need to be brought up. It has nothing to do with Power-Creep, which appears to be the new favorite term of the week.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
All I'm saying is, if some enchantments get improved, then Vorpal and Plaguefire wouldn't be the only real options out there. Boosting Bilethorn or Terror would be a good start...
I also added Flaming into the discussion now. It is beyond me why Flaming is that much better than Bilethorn in both the front damage & DoT damage. Bilethorn needs to be boosted.
OP is comparing all of the weapon enchants with a full grade higher PF.
No semantics there. Plain fact.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
Am important point of course and one that should not be overlooked.
When you compare the top tier enchants (Perfect Terror versus. Greater Plaguefire) it is much closer. If you can keep max stacks up Plaguefire is better but on certain classes and builds when this is not possible, Terror is superior. And of course you would want one of each ideally since two of the same weapon enchant debuffs don't stack.
Bilethorn and Flaming are clearly inferior to Plaguefire and Terror though.
All I was trying to say. (Yeah I know.. I said I was done. But forum posts and potato chips.. you know..)
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
devs realy need to read this
it needs to get fixed pronto!!!!!
Meh, 2 stacks of plaguefire is easy to manage and all classes should still be able to have 3 stacks most of the time, albeit some more effective than others. When perfect terror is barely better than a single stack of pf, I question it's effectiveness. I agree it's nice to have both on the team though, by itself though, terror sucks imo. Same with the majority of enchants though.
I do not get the same results on my other chars.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
Perhaps another way of of classifying them would be by their average price tiers? In which case OPs original post would make perfect sense.
The idea of an average is a bit dodgy dodgy since PF has three tiers while the others have four. So it is safest to compare the top tier I feel.
Personally I think Plaguefire and Terror are fine compared to each other since one requires you to maintain stacks while the other is fire-and-forget, and both stack with each other. However Bilethorn could do with a little love.
Suggestion 1: Bilethorn - Lower the poison time from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, or double the damage after 4 seconds.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Bilethorn performs bad compared to the other weapon enchantments, even though it is of the same tier. In the OP, when I compared Flaming and Bilethorn, Flaming won both with direct damage per swing and with DoT damage. (Forget the plaguefire comparison since it bothers you that bad). There shouldn't be a reason for Bilethorn to be worse than Flaming at it's current state, they're of the same tier, similar effect, one is better than the other?
2. Introducing a high DoT weapon enchantment could add a different playstyle which relies less on critical hits and bursts & rely more on DoT damage which could harass your opponent greatly.
Suggestion 2: Terror - Increase the Armor reduction of the foe by 1.5.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Terror is one of these enchantments that do high weapon damage but has an additional effect that is too weak to really change anything. With high weapon damage AND higher armor reduction, Terror would be a solid option for both low crit-high power players and for players who want to support their party by weakening stronger targets.
Suggestion 3: Flaming - Increase the weapon damage so it would match Terror.
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. Like I said, Bilethorn and Flaming are similar to one another, except what I'd suggest is- since Bilethorn should be the superior DoT enchantment, Flaming should be the superior front damage enchantment.
Suggestion 4: Frost - Remove the cooldown from the Recovery
Why do I think it makes sense?
1. I know I haven't talked about Frost until now, this is because Frost is so uncommon that I forgot about it. Frost suffers from an effect that is not too useful both on the PvE scene and the PvP scene. Why does it have a 20s cooldown on it's special ability? It's not like it's a game-changing-mega-enchantment. Yeah, recovery damage could be a pain... So what? How is lowering an enemy's recovery different than lowering his armor?
Look, the point of this entire post is just to boost some of the weaker enchantments. Of course everybody runs with Plaguefire and Vorpal right now, look at how weak some of these enchantments are. Especially Bilethorn and Frost. They are terrible. But improving these enchantments could add some variety and different styles of play which are much needed in my opinion when compared to the heavy burst damage popular style.
Plaguefire normal effect + Plaguefire lowers the effects of burn damage on you
Terror normal effect + Lowers the effects of necrotic damage on you
Bile normal effect + Lowers the effects of Poison on you
I think something Like that would give diversity
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
While there is a lot of debate in the forums on this topic, they are about equal.
Bile thorn and flaming, which we also tested, are woefully underpowered in Pve, as there is no debuff. They look cool but do not perform well.
Contrary to what was said earlier the plague fire and terror debuff really do matter and make a large impact. In many cases they are better for your team than a personal enchant, like a vorpal.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Thank you for your comment. I am glad to hear your insight on this matter.
It was rather obvious to me that the DoT enchants like Flaming and Bilethorn aren't good for PvE. Sadly, their effects is bad for PvP as well, because the DoT damage is too low to make up for the loss in the spike damage and isn't high enough for most classes to be used as a strategy.
Now, I don't think all enchantments should be equally as good for both PvP and PvE. I think we can all agree that Vorpal and Plaguefire are among the best PvE enchantments. Lightning is good for PvE as well, and like you mentioned, Terror isn't bad. However, enchantments like Vorpal, Plaguefire, and to a lesser extent terror, are also best enchantments for PvP, while enchantments like Bilethorn and Flaming are average at that territory.
In my opinion Bilethorn needs an immediate fix, and Flaming could do with a boost as well. I was thinking of another idea: Maybe instead of the current Bilethorn effect, turn it into something like -> Upon a critical hit, target takes 3x of the current Bilethorn DoT damage after 4 seconds. This is another effect that could be alternative to Vorpal (Critical DoT damage instead of critical severity), and would seperate Bilethorn from Flaming.
Actually price tiers have remained stable with respect to each other since the new refinement system came out. (for example, GPF has remained around 1/2 of Perfect Vorpal's cost (refinement cost) since as far as i can remember).
For me it's all about the bang you get for your buck. So for someone who has 3 million to spend on an enchantment GPF at the moment offers way more than a bang.
Didn't the necrotic damage at some point have a "unresistable" damage effect? I swear I remember reading that ... so one school of thought is a terror might better if that is the case as the necrotic damage is NOT mitigated ... I have no idea if this is still true or ever was true.
Also you can farm terror pretty easy and so its kind of a poor mans version of plague fire without the plague lol. Also the increased % damage is slightly higher than plague fire ...
I personally made a greater plague fire over double RP weekend and so far quite happy with it ... seems to work nicely and procs spell storm it seems.
I would like my thread to be about what IS and this thread to be about what SHOULD BE. Thank you,
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know