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Compilation of TR changes needed, IMO
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
1. General Direction
2. Changes to basic function
■ default movement speed increased by 15% - this increase also applies to movement speed at stealth
■ each point of DEX also contributes to +1% increase in default movement speed
...(so a 20 DEX TR will be a total of 25% faster in movement than current TRs)
■ default attack speed of all melee at-wills increased by 20%
■ Dodge-roll changes
3. Changes to stealth
3. Changes to Feats
■Basic concepts
■Heroic
■Saboteuer
■Scoundrel
■Executioner
4. Changes to Paragons
Master Infiltrator
■Gloaming Cut
■Impossible to Catch
■Infiltrator's Action
■Skillful Infiltrator
■Shocking Execution
Whisper Knife
■Vengeance's Pursuit
■Razor Action
■Advantageous Positioning
4. Changes to Powers
■Cloud of Steel
■Dazing Strike
■Sneak Attack
■Deft Strike
■Whirlwind of Blades
■Bait and Switch
■Duelist's Flurry
■Blitz
■Path of the Blade
■Impact Shot
■Wicked Reminder
■Shadow Strike
■Smoke Bomb
...Powerful utilities, powerful CCs, and a plethora of escape powers, but balanced by limited stealth with no way to extend it forever like the current permas .. as well as mostly active defenses(requiring precision timing). This is the TR I'd like to play.
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permastealth - or rather, consecutive stealth refills - is to be discouraged
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means of survival will have to rely on active use of powers - termed, "active defense", as opposed to relying on a passive factor such as invisibility, or damage reduction, or deflection etc. - termed, "passive defense"
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appropriate changes/additions should be applied to each and every power to properly accommodate for the use of active defenses
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specifically, the following areas need to be strengthened greatly:
(a) Utilities - CC break/escapes, secondary dodges, silence/interrupts, etc..
(b) CCs - direct debilitation such as stun and daze, movement impairment such as roots and slows
(c) QOL concerning melee status - changes/additions to make it easier to hit melee powers
2. Changes to basic function
■ default movement speed increased by 15% - this increase also applies to movement speed at stealth
■ each point of DEX also contributes to +1% increase in default movement speed
...(so a 20 DEX TR will be a total of 25% faster in movement than current TRs)
■ default attack speed of all melee at-wills increased by 20%
■ Dodge-roll changes
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each dodge now costs less stamina, roughly enough to do three consecutive dodges without extra stamina related buffs
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each dodge is now a bit more responsive - rolls a shorter distance than before, but moves faster
3. Changes to stealth
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stealth is now totally invisible and undetectable regardless of distance, when the TR is positioned within the rear 120d angle of the target
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stealth duration is now fimrly set to 10 seconds - feats/set bonuses that increase stealth duration are to be changed accordingly
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conversely, the time it takes for an empty stealth bar to charge-up is now set to 8 seconds, counting immediately from the moment stealth has been depleted
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being hit by enemy attacks while out of stealth and with a non-full stealth bar will now no longer damage and deplete the stealth bar. Instead, being attacked while the stealth bar is filling up will now slow down the refill speed upto a maximum of 100% increase (16 seconds). In other words, a TR will now always be able to enter stealth once 16 seconds have passed, no matter how many times it has been attacked.
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although hit effects will still be displayed when the TR is hit while in stealth, CCs will no longer forcibly reveal the position of the TR while in stealh
3. Changes to Feats
■Basic concepts
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Saboteuer: survival, stealth, debilitation
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Scoundrel:tricky, technical, dirty fighting
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Executioner:damage, assassination, burst
■Heroic
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Improved Cunning Sneak: changed "Quickfoot Sneaking" → movement speed while in stealth increased by 2/4/6/8/10%
■Saboteuer
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Speed Swindle: potency of effect increased to 3/6/9/12/15% - TR gains max 15% speed, target loses max 15%
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Baited Action: changed → dummy explosion countdown is now reduced by 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds. At 5/5 ranks, upon detonation command the dummy will explode immediately
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Expert Sneak: changed → the "undetectable zone" while stealthed, is now increased by 12/24/36/48/60 degrees, to a maximum of 180d behind the target
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Sneak of Shadows: changed "Endless Shadows" → while in stealth, your at-will attacks now have 3/6/9/12/15% chance to increase stealth duration by 2 seconds. If out of stealth, it has 3/6/8/12/15% chance to fill your stealth bar by 10%. This effect has no internal cooldown
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Unerring Ambush: changed "Precision Strike" → attacks from stealth with Deft Strike, Dazing Strike, and Blitz will now be increase in duration of the effect by 1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5/3 seconds
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Ruthless Efficiency: changed → when you land a critical hit, your critical severity is increased by 10% for the next 10 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds.
■Scoundrel
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Berserk Vitality: changed "Stop Right There" → attacks with your melee at-wills now have a 3/6/9/12/15% chance to root the enemy for 2 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 5 seconds
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Nimble Blade: changed → your attack speed is increased by 5/10/15/20/25%
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Catspaw Style: changed "Smoke gets in your eyes" → smoke screen caused by your Smokebomb and Bait and Switch dummy now lasts 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds longer, and the "Obscured" buff now offers 2/4/6/8/10% additional deflection chance against all friendlies affected by it.
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Brutal Wound: changed → critical hits with your encounters will now open up a gradually worsening, brutal wound that initially bleeds for 2% of your targets total HP, every 2 seconds, for as long as 10 seconds. The intensity of the bleeding is increased by 0.3/0.6/0.9/1.2/1.5% every tick.
(example: if full 5/5 investment into this trait, Brutal Wound will cause a bleed every 2 seconds for 5 times, that bleeds for 2%, 3.5%, 5%, 6.5%, 8% of the target's total HP individually, which equates to a total of 25% HP loss over 10 seconds)
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Whirlwind Sneak Attack: changed → for 6 seconds after stealth, the first time you hit with an encounter power it will daze and slow for 3 seconds
■Executioner
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Thrill of the Kill: changed → when you land a killing blow, gain 10/15/20/25/30% of your stealth bar. This effect can only happen once every 5 seconds
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Cruelty's Reward: changed "Panic Attack" → when you critically strike a foe, fear of you will cause the target to panic, increasing the likeliness of his attacks against you being deflected for 2/4/6/8/10% for the next 3 seconds.
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Critical Teamwork: changed "The Silencer" → when you hit critically from stealth with your melee encounters, the pain will overwhelm your target and prevent him from using any encounters or dailies for 2/2.5/3/3.5/4 seconds. At-wills still may be used.
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Deadly Momentum: changed "Double Tap" → when you hit critically with your melee encounter power, you have a 10/15/20/25/30% chance for the encounter you just used to recharge immediately, making it available for use. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds.
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Sharpened Steel: changed "Wicked Destruction" → your Wicked Reminder burst will now damage the opponent for 5/10/15/20/25% more damage
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OverrunCritical: changed → upon gaining a successful kill, the next encounter the TR uses will now ignore 50% of ALL types of mitigation, except the possibility of deflection
4. Changes to Paragons
Master Infiltrator
■Gloaming Cut
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lunging distance increased by 10'
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base damage reduced by 20%
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the "drawback" motion of the power can now be charged up by pressing down the mouse button, to a total of 3 seconds
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each 1 second of the "drawback" motion charge-up will add 15% damage bonus (and 5% additional stealth meter bonus if using the Sneaky Stabber feat), to a total of 45% bonus damage (and 15% additional stealth meter refill on top of the base 10%, for a total of 25% stealth meter refill, if using the "Sneaky Stabber" feat
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the player is able to move at 60% of the base movement speed when charging up Gloaming Cut
■Impossible to Catch
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base recharge time increased by 3 seconds
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when activated, removes all DoTs and negative effects on you during the time of activation
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movement speed is increased by 20% during the duration of the effect
■Infiltrator's Action
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Every time a daily power is used, your movement speed is increased by 20% for the next 10 seconds
■Skillful Infiltrator
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15% speed buff removed
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deflection and critical chance factor per rank increased from 1% per rank → 1.5% per rank
■Shocking Execution
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damage levels are changed to closer to mod2 levels, although not as powerful
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the "jump-up → strike" activation sequence is now 30% faster
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the attack can now be dodged
Whisper Knife
■Vengeance's Pursuit
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the "mark" portion of the power now provides you with a buff that reduces the duration of all ill-effects that originates from the marked target, by half (CCs, DoTs, debuffs, etc..)
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the teleport portion of the power now activates 100% faster(double speed)
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activating the teleport action now provides a dodge status
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teleporting to the target while under stealth, will now root the target for 3 seconds
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teleporting to the target while under stealth, will now break stealth as usual, but provide you with a 2 second CC immunity
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the mark portion of this power now has two charges, with one free charge while in stealth
■Razor Action
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Razor Action now deals straight 30% of the damage inflicted as an AoE
■Advantageous Positioning
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When there is an enemy within melee range, you gain 25% damage resistance against all ranged attacks directed at you
4. Changes to Powers
■Cloud of Steel
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number of charges are now increased 8 → 10
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recharge time for a single charge is now increased 3 → 4 seconds while in combat, but reduced to 3 → 1 seconds while out of combat
■Dazing Strike
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activation speed increased by 20%, both in and out of stealth
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when used from stealth, Dazing Strike now additionally slows the target movement by 30% during the duration of the effect
■Sneak Attack
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+30% movement speed buff removed
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changed back into a damage buff 3/6/9% damage while attacking from stealth
■Deft Strike
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recharge time of this power is now greatly reduced to 6 seconds
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activating this power now grants dodge status
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the teleport portion of the power now activates 100% faster
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when activated from stealth, this power are now roots for 2 seconds
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the teleportation of this power now breaks you free from roots
■Whirlwind of Blades
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this daily now deals damage in reverse proportion to the number of targets hit. Maximum 100% damage will be dealt against a single target, 20% of the maximum will be dealt against five targets
■Bait and Switch
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the recharge time of this power is now increased by +5 seconds
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Bait and Switch no longer recharges the stealth meter in anyway
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when Bait and Switch is used, the TR will now immediately disappear without any visual queues noticeable to the opposing players, and leave behind a dummy that cannot be distinguished with the original in anyway except for the fact that it is stationary.
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The TR will roll back 20 feet behind the dummy in stealth that lasts for 5 seconds. This stealth duration is unaffected by incoming attacks, nor any other powers like Shadow Strike
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The dummy can be 'commanded' to self-destruct by pressing the BnS command again, which then will go into 3 seconds countdown. After 3 seconds, the dummy will cause a massive AoE explosion which causes damage and prones all targets caught by it
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the dummy will also explode if attacked and destroyed
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If used from stealth, the dummy will additionally leave behind a smokescreen which is identical to the effect of Smoke Bomb
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If used from stealth, when the TR rolls backwards, the 5 second stealth will first be used up first, and then normal stealth duration will ensue, essentially extending the stealth by 5 seconds
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the 'roll-back' part of BnS activation is now considered a dodge. Also, this roll-back will
■Duelist's Flurry
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attacks 1 and 2 of the combo are now greatly speeded up
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attack 3 of the combo is now shortened to 2 seconds
■Blitz
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this power now slows targets on default
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this power, if used from stealth, now roots all targets hit by it for 2 seconds
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the "jump-back" motion of the power when initially activated, is now considered a dodge
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the "jump-back" motion of the power will now break you free from roots
■Path of the Blade
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recharge time of this power is now greatly reduced to 12 seconds
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this power is now more in line with how it is described in D&D 4th
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activating this power will now set up a straight visual path queue that is 60' in length(like the aiming visual queue for Seismic Shot the HRs have)
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when activated, the TR will rush along the path with blinding speed, striking all targets caught in the path and dazing them for 2 seconds
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when activated from stealth, the duration of the daze is doubled, to 4 seconds
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while rushing, the TR is considered in dodge status, and immune to damage and CCs
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also, activation of the power will break you free of roots
■Impact Shot
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the range of this power is now decreased to 30'
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the damage of this power is now reverted to roughly 80~90% of what it used to be in mod2
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charges are removed from this power, and it now goes into a 12 second recharge after one use
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the visual of this power is now changed to a very powerful overhand throw of a dagger
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the potency of the push-back effect of this power is now greatly strengthened, roughly half of CW Repel
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when the effect pushes a target and slams it against a vertical obstacle(like a wall or a pillar), the target is stunned for 2 seconds
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when used from stealth, this power now prones the target on the spot (in a great, exaggerated falling down motion.. like perhaps being hit by a clothesline move in professional wrestling). The prone duration itself is shorter than GF/GWF prones
■Wicked Reminder
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Base damage of this power is reduced by 20%
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Each attack of Wicked Reminder debuff stacks, in addition to providing defense debuff, can now be detonated by pushing the Wicked Reminder key once more during impact
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Each stack of the debuff will deal 5% of the target's HP as damage, when detonated
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each stack of the debuff will also stun the target for 0.3/0.6/1.0 seconds
■Shadow Strike
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the recharge time of this power is increased by +7 seconds
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Shadow Strike now no longer immediately fills the stealth meter
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it will now place a "impaired vision" effect upon your target for 3/6/9 seconds, which reduces the visual distance of the target down to a 50' radius. The effected target will not be able to see any friendlies or enemies outside 50' range
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targets with impaired vision will not be able to detect a stealthed TR at any range, even if it is placed within the frontal 240 degrees at melee range
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the daze this power deals when used from stealth is increased to 5 second duration
■Smoke Bomb
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the effects of Smoke Bomb are now immediate after activation
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Smoke Bomb now no longer dazes opponents if used outside of stealth, however, it slows opponents caught in the smoke on default
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all friendlies, including you, now receive an "Obscured" buff while inside the smokescreen, which adds 3/6/10% additional deflection chance for all those with the buff. With the "Smoke Gets in your Eyes" feat, the Obscured buff offers a total of 20% increased deflection chance against all incoming attacks
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when used from stealth, Smoke Bomb, only then, dazes, in addition to slowing, the opponents caught within it
...Powerful utilities, powerful CCs, and a plethora of escape powers, but balanced by limited stealth with no way to extend it forever like the current permas .. as well as mostly active defenses(requiring precision timing). This is the TR I'd like to play.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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Comments
"Percentage of HP" damages with either Brutal Wound or Wicked Reminder. Of course, the effect would probably be toned down in PvE, or rather against a boss-mob, but these traits are around 25% damage of HP in total -- which is actually way too powerful to use it on the 'get-go' in PvE by itself.
Ofcourse, most PvE issues are "role" issues anyway, and therefore I hardly blame the TRs, or their shortcomings, of what the PvE is like for TRs nowadays. This issue probably needs resolved through better dungeon/content design where just the NW-standard of "a tank, a healer, and many many CWs" just won't cut it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I agree that we still would need more damage to be able to be useful in PVE though.
Won't really comment on the feats.. just the powers and stealth changes
"although hit effects will still be displayed when the TR is hit while in stealth, CCs will no longer forcibly reveal the position of the TR while in stealh"
Yes please, this frustrates me to no end. Examples are Icy Rays and the old roar. Once these hit you, there goes your unpredictability.
being hit by enemy attacks while out of stealth and with a non-full stealth bar will now no longer damage and deplete the stealth bar. Instead, being attacked while the stealth bar is filling up will now slow down the refill speed upto a maximum of 100% increase (16 seconds). In other words, a TR will now always be able to enter stealth once 16 seconds have passed, no matter how many times it has been attacked.
Then what's the purpose of Tenacious Concealement anymore?
Powers:
The Whirlwind of Blades one doesn't make sense... It's an AOE, so why is it more effective at single target, it should be the other way around, dealing minor damage to single targets, but gaining damage as the number of enemies increase.
With this change Impact Shot will be terrible, charges make you have some sort of momentum as you're pressuing your enemy when attacking, but attacking once then going on CD is just.. no, even with the damage buffed.
The Shadow Strike change is terrible, nobody will ever slot it.
ITC: Are those changes on top of the CC immunity ones? Or is your idea removing the CC and damage immune portion of it?
Skillful Infiltrator: 1.5% is not enough, should be 3%.
Shocking Execution: Similar to my suggestion as well, except for the Speed. This power currently doesn't feel like an execution. People should fear this like they used to (But not quite as OP).
Cloud Of Steel: Proposed the increase to 10 as well. But the cooldowns shouldn't change IMO.
Path of the Blade: Interesting change, won't make this a skilless, undodgeable AOE.
Rest of the changes are fine I guess.
Perma-Stealth should go yeah, but not completely. Not every rogue wants to be a CCer or an brutal crit machine Assassin, there are some who use their Stealth ability to stay in the shadows and torture their enemy mentally, killing them over time.
This is the problem with class balance - What PvP TRs want, as a PvE TR I don't want at all.
TR isn't, has never been, and IMO shouldn't be a CC class. We're off-CC at most, and even that I find questionable from the roots of the class in the PnP game. Rogues have always been about hiding or taking advantage of positioning to deal massive damage. Not throwing smoke bombs and giggling.
What we need is our damage back. And our options. We need to have it be equally viable to hide all the time and to barely hide at all. We need our damage back to levels that will make people want us in PvE again because we melt things so fast it's worthwhile to have one over a CW who does more CC and more AoE damage than we ever could(or should, for that matter) dream about. A lot of the big mobs TRs are best for dealing with are immune to CCs anyway - We don't need CC, we need the single-target damage to deal with them quickly before they chew on a CW or HR. Bosses don't get CCed. We used to be the best at bosses. We need that back, and enough of it that people want a TR in PvE again. We also need mobility. The PnP 4E Rogue is mobile, especially artful dodgers. We need that here.
Not CCs that turn us into a weak, still-useless single-target version of the CW. A weak striker with lots of control? That's a Warlock, guys. There's a reason Warlock in 4E is considered one of the worst at actually being a Striker - It gives up too much of its primary damage roll to be a weak mostly single-target controller. That's what you're suggesting for TR here. That's not a TR, and that's not what this class needs to be viable in both PvE and PvP.
We're strikers. We're supposed to be doing massive single-target damage while weaving in and out of combat. We need to act like it, not act like some other game's implementation of a Thief is the way a D&D game should be run. (Hells, 5E Rogue is even less CC-y than 4E's now that martial classes don't have powers. But it is a very mobile class. And damaging. As a D&D Rogue should be.)
-Impact Shot. I love the Vayne's Condemn effect, but I disagree with removing the charges. Move the impale-against-wall effect to stealth, bring back the skill's damage, and this power will be fine.
-Shadow Strike. I think this skill is fine as it is, but if we have to change it, then give it an effect that still makes it a viable choice for PvE.
-Overrun Critical. I think this should be changed to further increase TR's DPS in long boss fights, to satisfy PvE TRs and their thirst for damage.
One more thing, I don't see what's wrong with having both CC and DPS as a TR. From what I get, our stealth is going to be nerfed, so I think having CC is a great alternative when it comes to self-defense. I hope a lot of these changes go through when TR gets reworked.
as i actually have skillful infiltrator and sneak attack slotted, i can assure you that 45% move speed is still ungodly slow. the 32% move speed that i would get from these changes is simply lackluster even if i spend more time visible than the fraction i do as invisible. gwf's/warlocks can easily outspeed that the second you reach them and hunters can stay out of melee range indefinitely.
whirlwind of blades is our only real aoe power. your change will completely kill it for all intents and purposes. i can't even recall the last time only ONE enemy was within range of me in pve. pvp, i spend too much time distracting 1-5 people for 10+ seconds hoping the rest of my team can take advantage of my tankiness.
smoke bomb NEEDS the daze. 10% deflect chance just makes it a gimmicky gamble skill without stealth.
overrun critical needing a kill completely kills it and utterly destroys whatever is left of a rogue's single-target dps. dropping 5% critical rate for an ability lock is just....conflicting. more of our dps down the drain for a psuedo-daze and this is the dps feat path.
can you stop hating on ITC, it's kinda annoying. things might be different for whisperknives, but i can't tell you how often i have to dodge-roll away because ITC is on cooldown instead of actually dpsing. even when i have ITC ready: black ice damage bypasses it, dragons hit so hard that i can die if i don't life-steal myself back up, etc. it's simply the only ability that allows us to STAY in melee range. also, it's current cooldown is just enough for it to perfectly align with boss aoes with like 2k or so recovery. any harsher of a cooldown will make us too dependent on stamina and for some boss fights.....not having enough to actually avoid/mitigate damage.
impact shot might benefit the ranged rogues, but it's even more incompatible with melee rogues than ever b4 with that suggestion. good luck catching a hunter/wizard after that.
and all of those run-speed bonuses on-top of erasing the run-speed from a key class feature is just meh to me.
You can keep on dreaming about something that will never happen, or you could accept a different role -- because as long as the very fundamental mechanic of NW stands, light-melees that need to keep on moving around to avoid damage will never be able to do as much damage as a pure ranged DPS or the ungodly tank+DPS the GWF is.
I said this before, I say it again -- increased damage will not earn you any more slots in any PvE runs, because no matter how well we do damage, ultimately there is no beating the current model of efficiency that is the tank + multiple CWs if we compete with damage.
Here's the choice the people have:
Unending stream of massive AoE damage + CCs with a single tank-DPS, that can aggro up all the mobs in visual range, gather them into a nice and tidy small area, CC and bombard the hell out of it to clear the entire mob-spawn area within 10 seconds
a single-target, self proposed 'striker' role that has now whoppin'
"got the old damage back(yippee!!)"... and then does some heavy, noticeable damage against individual targets, but still need to attack stuff one by one, doesn't help with gathering and CCing mobs at all, and still needs to dodge, weave, maneuver around while doing that.If you are the typical PvE player with the "clear the dungeon ASAP for faster loot gain" mindset, would you pick the TR? Would you pick yourself, when clearing the dungeon faster is what really matters? I know I wouldn't -- not with the dungeons like this.
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In order to do enough damage to be considered a worthy replacement for a CW, we'll probably have to be doing damage that cuts down lieutenant grade(the 3-section HP bar) mobs in less than 2 seconds, within oneshot or twoshot attacks regardless of stealth. That way, the TR damage would be so high as to be noticeable to everyone else, as well as actually compete with CWs in terms of efficiency, since even the mass-CC bombardment requires 3~5 attacks AoE attacks on average -- compared to that, everywhere the TR moves, *snip* and a mob falls, *shrrk* and another falls. One shot, one kills. THAT WAY, I'd pick the TR as a worthy replacement for PvE content.
Do you know how much DPS that is?
I'll just say its simply an amount of DPS that will never, ever make place into any MMORPG.
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The absence and deprivation of TRs in PvE has NOTHING to do damage. It is simply a lack of role, and no realistic amount of damage increase will ever give us real roles in PvE content. You've gotta wake up and see the reality this is, instead of keep fantasizing that we, a light melee class, that needs to do a hundred different things before landing real damage, can ever compete with a "Unstoppable" melee DPS or a pure ranged DPS+CC.
It ain't happening, dude.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
hehehehe this here
its realy funny to think that tr cant be usefull in a tree button game lol.
just make it best single target on boss and raise bosses hp and there u have it its viable again
but not 10% better then other classes that will not do the job 100% better, 10 gs tr should beat 20 gs cw in single target like 5 gs cw can beat 20k tr in aoe.
even if they dont raise hp of the boss its fine also,way better then now
isnt it game breaking that u need 3 cw in a party that freezes everything and u dont even lose hp.
i saw cw solo captured prospectors easy and fast.now thats fine lool.
@OP: Perhaps some small changes here and there are needed, but I dont want to see the same situation as we had it in open beta.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)