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PVP and PVE cannot coexist successfully
pointsman
Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
The desired goal of PVP is to have classes sufficiently balanced such that, all else being equal, each class has a 50/50 chance to beat every other class.
The desired goal of PVE is to have classes sufficiently diversified such that each member of a team brings unique skills and talents to a party that are necessary to accomplish the PVE objective (kill the boss/dragon/whatever).
You cannot have both "balanced" classes and "diversified" classes at the same time. They cannot coexist.
If classes are balanced, then there is no diversity, at least none that matters. For instance, if, all else being equal, a CW and a GWF have an equal chance at killing each other, then what is so unique or special about either a CW or a GWF? Wearing cool hats? Wielding a big sword? Is that it? And, if a CW and a GWF have an equal chance at killing each other, what are the unique talents that each would bring to a PVE experience that *they wouldn't also use on each other*? For instance, if CWs are supposed to be masters of crowd control in PVE, which nearly all agree that they should be, then what stops a CW from using that CC mastery on a GWF in a PVP experience? And, by definition, since a CW is better at CC than a GWF, then by PVP standards, the classes are imbalanced. And you could contrive similar examples among any two classes.
The desired goal of PVE is to have classes sufficiently diversified such that each member of a team brings unique skills and talents to a party that are necessary to accomplish the PVE objective (kill the boss/dragon/whatever).
You cannot have both "balanced" classes and "diversified" classes at the same time. They cannot coexist.
If classes are balanced, then there is no diversity, at least none that matters. For instance, if, all else being equal, a CW and a GWF have an equal chance at killing each other, then what is so unique or special about either a CW or a GWF? Wearing cool hats? Wielding a big sword? Is that it? And, if a CW and a GWF have an equal chance at killing each other, what are the unique talents that each would bring to a PVE experience that *they wouldn't also use on each other*? For instance, if CWs are supposed to be masters of crowd control in PVE, which nearly all agree that they should be, then what stops a CW from using that CC mastery on a GWF in a PVP experience? And, by definition, since a CW is better at CC than a GWF, then by PVP standards, the classes are imbalanced. And you could contrive similar examples among any two classes.
Post edited by pointsman on
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PVP has nothing to do with the problems in PVE. The reason why there's no diversity in PVE is because all of the content is a DPS race that doesn't need to be tanked or healed, and is chock full of controllable adds. 1 class is better than all of the others at fighting in these circumstances, and they only get better the more you stack them.
this ^
Pve and pvp can be balanced fine. In pvp, all classes could be equal at 1v1 just by playing different. In pve as hamletswords said, it's all about dps, needing to clear dungeons faster so not all classes are needed since only 2 or 3 can really do high amounts or have useful abilities.
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PvP (MMO PvP) is not supposed to be balanced around 1v1. If there was some type of arena environment, than maybe it should be close but never perfectly balanced.
Build diversity should determine class roles, and counter classes. This should be especially true in PvP gametypes such as Domination where teamwork can easily overcome gear/killing ability.
This is part of whats wrong with the PvP in this game. Back in Mod 1/2 we had fairly balanced PvP at most points. There were tweaks to be made but not many, and not very drastic ones . Then changes were made to attempt and balance PvP for 1v1 situations and to make the gear gap play less of a roll in a players success or defeat in PvP. It also aimed to make ineffective some of the more popular PvP builds that fulfilled a specific roll that is necessary for dynamic gameplay in a PvP mode such as domination.
The first step of that process was Tenacity. From there it has been a scramble of sweeping class changes including significant nerfs and buffs all happening to multiple classes at the same time. You cannot keep anything balanced while doing that. This is a lesson that has been learned by once successful MMO's such as Rift, and SWTOR.
Thats what happened to this game. Blame whoever or whatever you want, but thats why we are where we are at. People complain about exploits and bugs with core class mechanics, but none of that would have happened if they didn't try and make so many huge changes at once.
Its over now, it is pretty irrecoverably ****ed, especially if these new "Class Advocates" don't understand that this is what happened.
- Some people try to balance the classes only on 1v1 situations, to have a 50/50 chance to beat every other instead of worrying about what the class should be/do (GF being a Tank, GWF being a Striker, DC being a healer/buffer, obviously considering that they can choose different ways to approach a little to the branches of DPS, Utility, etc...)
- Devs seems to release content as if they didn't even tried those things before, like the Blue Dragon Enchantments, Cockatrice (OPvP), CW changes when MoD 4 was released, etc...
- The gear/skill relation is becoming pretty imbalanced, gear is more and more important each time, Artifacts, Armor and Weapon Enchantments (some of them), etc... also the 5 sets of boons are contributing to this, and skill is being increasingly sidelined...
Duels is a tiny part on MMORPG's PvP.
The archetypal party in D&D 4e is balanced so:
1. Fighter - Protect the party by getting in the enemy's way. This is represented by the fighter's Mark, where a Marked target gets -2 to attack rolls that don't include the fighter as a target. Also, if the enemy ignores the fighter anyway, the fighter gets a free attack against that enemy. Attacking the fighter means that the enemy has to deal with his high defenses and hit points, while attacking the squishies means the fighter gets to deal a ton of bonus damage to the enemy, ending the fight sooner and resulting in less damage dealt to the party.
2. Rogue - The rogue can scout ahead to see what threats the party will face, and can use his wide repertoire of skills to pick locks, disarm traps, climb walls, sweet talk his way past guards, charm socialites at the Grand Ball, persuade the king to send soldiers to help clear out a zombie horde, etc. In combat, he can Sneak Attack for massive damage, be it from melee or by sniping from range with his trusty crossbow. Rogues are generally inferior to fighters in a stand up fight, but make up for it with their noncombat skills and high damage output.
3. Wizard - Wizards deal little damage, but they can lock down the enemy with status effects that allow the rest of the party to take them down piecemeal. They also have a large number of area of effect spells that let them deal with swarms of minions. Outside combat, they can perform a wide variety of rituals, which are utility spells that are impractical to cast in combat but are very useful for a wide variety of reasons (teleportstion rituals come to mind) . The wizard also has a wide variety of knowledge skills at his disposal (Arcana, History, Religion, Nature, Dungeoneering, etc.) that allow his player to ask the DM for important clues involving the situation at hand. In exchange for all this versatility, the wizard doesn't start with any armor proficiencies and he has the worst hit points and defenses of the core classes.
4. Cleric - Damage is an inevitable part of D&D, even in the heroic action fantasy themed 4e. While all classes can heal themselves without a cleric, having a cleric or another Leader class greatly improves the party's ability to recover from injury. Each character can only heal so much damage every day, and the cleric' powers either makes this self-healing more efficient or provides extra healing beyond the body's physical limits. Also, clerics have easy access to radiant damage, which is particularly harmful to undead. From Turn Undead to Lance of Faith to other radiant powers, the cleric can annihilate the undead with ease. Against other enemies, the cleric can buff his allies to deal more damage or land hits more often or take less damage or all of the above. Their downside is that their weapon and armor choices are mediocre without burning precious feats to expand their repertoire.
Basically, each of the above mentioned four classes fills a specific role that contributes to the party's success. None of these are mandatory, though missing a class makes success harder to accomplish . No fighter means that the party will take more damage and deal less damage, no rogue means less noncombat options and less stealth, no wizard means a harder time against massed minions as well as having to pay NPCs for basic magical services, and finally no cleric means that the party will be able to heal much less damage and have a harder time against undead.
None of these classes are identical, none of them are balanced in 1v1 fights between each other, but each contributes meaningfully towards the party's goals.
Taking a break from Neverwinter indefinitely...
And you were wrong, and are still wrong.
Exactly as another posted said above, Balanced=/=Identical.
I still hold true that any class should be able to kill each other 50%, or provide a similarly valuable asset to party for a healer, just as an example.
It doesn't mean they will be identical. Some class will have to do it from range with arrows. Another as a magic elementalist. Another as a pet class with DoTs. Another from close range with daggers that hurt a lot and stuns and evasion.
And so on.
But they all need to have good chance to kill each other indeed.
This type of balance is not even so necessary in Domination. It more for a Deathmatch Arena style which I hope to see soon. So here in NWO this type of balancing can be even more lax, until another PvP mode arrives.
You don't need to dislike PvP so much. PvP is great. Do not confuse a very fun and competitive gamestyle with the people that play it, most of them indeed being idiots lol.
That is just giving different names to the same things.
Look. If every class has the same chance to kill every other class, then it does not matter if it's from range or melee, or if it uses arrows or daggers. The only differences are just cosmetic. If the only difference between a CW's Magic Missle and an HR's arrows are that one is called "magic missile" and the other is called "arrow", then there is no difference. It's all just cosmetic.
And so on.
PVP is full of not just idiots but cheaters, exploiters, trash-talkers and immature scumballs. It should have no place in a D&D-based game. The only reason it's here in the first place is because (a) other MMOs have it and (b) PWE wants to make money off of gullible gamer freaks who just gravitate from one game to the next without regards to the lore, storyline, or anything else that actually makes the game unique and special. It could be Wizards hurling Magic Missiles, or Space Aliens firing Laser Cannons, it would make no difference.
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- difference is in effects, type of damage (phys./magic) and many other subtleties that should be VERY important.
- you cannot take PvP away from the game now. It is way too late. Also with all due respect, but this is a thematic actionMMO, not D&D.
Keep in mind I came here from Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights as a lore/storytelling D&D mechanics fan. I was utterly displeased with how the game was and still is.
I came for epic, amazing PvE. I found none. The mechanics and gameplay were kinda cool though, so I started PvP, and it was OK.
Too bad it's so broken now it's no longer worth my time
Oh, yeah, and PvE is full of legit ¬¬.
You should have learned that this just a random MMO with some D&D thematic (limited by some names and that's all).
Well, there is an entire channel devoted to legitimate PVE play, and it's got thousands of members.
Tell me, is there a version of /legit for PVP matches?
A channel has nothing to do with it. The reason why the pvp community has gets a bad rep is only because of some players, not all.
Pvp is fun for some, thats why i play it, i like to be the bets I can and win sure but i don't trash talk unless someone directly says somethign bad to me, and if my team wins I let the enemy cap some points so they at least get some glory or we have some fun 1v1 with each other. Even in icewind thats what I do most and if I see a guy who gs is way lower than mine I wont attack him, I will let them get on with quests and have fun.
But then I have seen others who bully lower players for fun and insult the enemy team for being bad. I do not play with people like that and they give us pvpers a bad name, when not all of us are like that.
Pve has its bad side too. People being kicked before the loot, getting kicked because they aren't good enough or whatever the reason. It's not the game type, there is just bad people in every part of the game.
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