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SKILL or NO SKILL - Nevewinter PvP is heading the wrong way
magiquepurse
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
As a short introduction, the purpose of this topic is to attract attention towards a very concerning tendency in NWO PvP - to remove almost all skill from the game and make it a CC, shoot&tank fest that places more importance on gear and build than skill and execution.
I will detail this based on classes below:
Control Wizard
The CW is most probably the most problematic class as of now. The mechanics favor an extremely lazy and boring playstyle based on PROCS and DoTs.
Example:
Past, skill based rotation: Icy Rays, Entangle, Shard, Chill Strike. Difficult to land. Even more difficult to land against an aware opponent, and if they had a stun, almost impossible. This was good.
Past easier rotation: RoE, Repel, Entangle, Chill Strike for Renegade; Entangle, RoE, Icy Rays from Mastery, Chill Strike for Thaumaturge. This rotation was way easier to land, yet the CC chain openers like Repel/Entangle were powers that one could dodge if aware. Still required some skill, although it was point&shoot as well.
Present rotation (BAD): Spec Thaum use Storm Spell. Shoot stuff on people to proc it and Assailant. Watch them kill targets. Skill required: almost none. SS and Assailant proc and kill you.
Great Weapon Fighter
GWF used to be in a relatively easy-mode area for a while. Things changed. If you don't land your CCs now, you will probably end up dead.
Past rotations:
Roar, Takedown, IBS maybe Flourish. Tenebrous enchants would proc for a huge chunk of damage often enough to kill your opponents if they didn't had tenes or barkshield. Little skill required. Bonus: wear a briartwine, let people hit you and die from tene procs without you doing anything. BAD.
IV Senti, later IV Destroyer. FLS/Roar, Takedown, IBS, Threatening Rush spam, Deep Gash when it worked. Skill required=close to none, but for skilled opponents you still needed to land roar on them. The GWF was tanky enough to allow for quite a few mistakes. If Roar would have been fixed with some damage toning down, all would have been fine, and this build would have been a nice, semi-skill build that stands in a sweet spot. Playable for newbies, and extremely dangerous in the hands of an experienced GWF.
New "troll" build, based on Intimidation. Damage does not respect DR, dodges, ITC. Welcome back Tenes, and GWF has their own Assailant/SS. Skill required - close to none, almost all merit is on finding/perfecting this build. BAD.
Trickster Rogue
I will go by skills here.
- Path of the Blades. Always ticks in an AoE. No skill required whatsoever. BAD.
- Shocking Execution. Almost always lands, guaranteed. BAD.
- Whirlwind of Blades. See above. Bad.
- Duelist Flurry sniping. This is a staple power of goodness. Together with CW Shard rotation, this is one of the hardest things to land in the game. Many props to the pros that are able to pull it reliably and under stress. Verdict: VERY GOOD. This is how powers should be designed: hard to land, rewarding when you do.
TR is in a rather unique place due to crazy and repeated nerfing. The only viable build is (semi)perma. The perma build is not easy to play and not beginner friendly at all. Skill is rewarded, although TR needs viable alternatives to this.
Hunter Ranger
The HR is in an almost as problematic spot as the CW. Almost.
Bad, lazy mechanics:
- combat "I deflect stuffz and heal" build. Passive all the way. You dodge, deflect roughly 50% of what people throw at you. Build up WM stacks. BAD.
- Careful Attack/GPF cycle of ticking and refreshing the ticks. The epitome of bad. You put it on people, hit them from time to time, GPF refreshes CA, CA procs GPF, which refreshes CA... It used to reduce CDs on criting. It builds AP/tick. BAD.
- Thorn Ward/Split the Sky AoE denial. You go in the red, you get hit, debuffed. You attack, you get slowed. Takes no skill whatsoever, like TR's PotB. BAD.
- Past Constrictive. 3 ticks of stun for one hit. Semi-bad as you still needed to land it, but animation very short.
- Forest Meditation: guaranteed heal on a class that already heals a lot. Umm... bad, cheap and lazy. Hit the HR while they meditate, you made them heal some more since the PvP set was bugged. Less cheesy now with the nerfed set.
HR is a bit of a particular position. Because the devs didn't give HRs CC immune moves besides the short buggy dodges, it takes one Icy Rays and a good DPS on you to return you to spawn. I do wish there was an active way of mitigating stuff instead of relying on passive heals.
Devoted Cleric
Well, it's a healer class. There is not much to say here. The real skill here is in rotation properly and surviving the trips from point to point. Asking DCs to be too active for their heals is pushing it. I will give however an example of a very good mechanic:
- Exaltation. The bubble will make people damage-immune. If the DC is good, and knows the dangerous abilities that other classes posses, it makes for an awesome example of skill being rewarded. Ever saved from an IBS by your cleric? It is time to appreciate what they are doing.
Clutch move. Rewards skill. VERY GOOD.
Guardian Fighter
Sadly, I have to say I know little about the new mechanics and have yet to meet the good ones in PvP. This section will need further editing in the future.
So what do you think? Should we continue on the direction of procs, dots and guaranteed hits and so on?
Or should the game do its best to reward skill and execution?
Do vote.
I will detail this based on classes below:
Control Wizard
The CW is most probably the most problematic class as of now. The mechanics favor an extremely lazy and boring playstyle based on PROCS and DoTs.
Example:
Past, skill based rotation: Icy Rays, Entangle, Shard, Chill Strike. Difficult to land. Even more difficult to land against an aware opponent, and if they had a stun, almost impossible. This was good.
Past easier rotation: RoE, Repel, Entangle, Chill Strike for Renegade; Entangle, RoE, Icy Rays from Mastery, Chill Strike for Thaumaturge. This rotation was way easier to land, yet the CC chain openers like Repel/Entangle were powers that one could dodge if aware. Still required some skill, although it was point&shoot as well.
Present rotation (BAD): Spec Thaum use Storm Spell. Shoot stuff on people to proc it and Assailant. Watch them kill targets. Skill required: almost none. SS and Assailant proc and kill you.
Great Weapon Fighter
GWF used to be in a relatively easy-mode area for a while. Things changed. If you don't land your CCs now, you will probably end up dead.
Past rotations:
Roar, Takedown, IBS maybe Flourish. Tenebrous enchants would proc for a huge chunk of damage often enough to kill your opponents if they didn't had tenes or barkshield. Little skill required. Bonus: wear a briartwine, let people hit you and die from tene procs without you doing anything. BAD.
IV Senti, later IV Destroyer. FLS/Roar, Takedown, IBS, Threatening Rush spam, Deep Gash when it worked. Skill required=close to none, but for skilled opponents you still needed to land roar on them. The GWF was tanky enough to allow for quite a few mistakes. If Roar would have been fixed with some damage toning down, all would have been fine, and this build would have been a nice, semi-skill build that stands in a sweet spot. Playable for newbies, and extremely dangerous in the hands of an experienced GWF.
New "troll" build, based on Intimidation. Damage does not respect DR, dodges, ITC. Welcome back Tenes, and GWF has their own Assailant/SS. Skill required - close to none, almost all merit is on finding/perfecting this build. BAD.
Trickster Rogue
I will go by skills here.
- Path of the Blades. Always ticks in an AoE. No skill required whatsoever. BAD.
- Shocking Execution. Almost always lands, guaranteed. BAD.
- Whirlwind of Blades. See above. Bad.
- Duelist Flurry sniping. This is a staple power of goodness. Together with CW Shard rotation, this is one of the hardest things to land in the game. Many props to the pros that are able to pull it reliably and under stress. Verdict: VERY GOOD. This is how powers should be designed: hard to land, rewarding when you do.
TR is in a rather unique place due to crazy and repeated nerfing. The only viable build is (semi)perma. The perma build is not easy to play and not beginner friendly at all. Skill is rewarded, although TR needs viable alternatives to this.
Hunter Ranger
The HR is in an almost as problematic spot as the CW. Almost.
Bad, lazy mechanics:
- combat "I deflect stuffz and heal" build. Passive all the way. You dodge, deflect roughly 50% of what people throw at you. Build up WM stacks. BAD.
- Careful Attack/GPF cycle of ticking and refreshing the ticks. The epitome of bad. You put it on people, hit them from time to time, GPF refreshes CA, CA procs GPF, which refreshes CA... It used to reduce CDs on criting. It builds AP/tick. BAD.
- Thorn Ward/Split the Sky AoE denial. You go in the red, you get hit, debuffed. You attack, you get slowed. Takes no skill whatsoever, like TR's PotB. BAD.
- Past Constrictive. 3 ticks of stun for one hit. Semi-bad as you still needed to land it, but animation very short.
- Forest Meditation: guaranteed heal on a class that already heals a lot. Umm... bad, cheap and lazy. Hit the HR while they meditate, you made them heal some more since the PvP set was bugged. Less cheesy now with the nerfed set.
HR is a bit of a particular position. Because the devs didn't give HRs CC immune moves besides the short buggy dodges, it takes one Icy Rays and a good DPS on you to return you to spawn. I do wish there was an active way of mitigating stuff instead of relying on passive heals.
Devoted Cleric
Well, it's a healer class. There is not much to say here. The real skill here is in rotation properly and surviving the trips from point to point. Asking DCs to be too active for their heals is pushing it. I will give however an example of a very good mechanic:
- Exaltation. The bubble will make people damage-immune. If the DC is good, and knows the dangerous abilities that other classes posses, it makes for an awesome example of skill being rewarded. Ever saved from an IBS by your cleric? It is time to appreciate what they are doing.
Clutch move. Rewards skill. VERY GOOD.
Guardian Fighter
Sadly, I have to say I know little about the new mechanics and have yet to meet the good ones in PvP. This section will need further editing in the future.
So what do you think? Should we continue on the direction of procs, dots and guaranteed hits and so on?
Or should the game do its best to reward skill and execution?
Do vote.
Post edited by magiquepurse on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Wow, these two encounters are 14 seconds cooldowns, maybe passes DR but doesn't crit and deals 3k-4k for a Sentinel. Dealing 8k True damages in a short easy dodgeable range with a cooldown of 14 seconds while other classes do much better is truly OP !
Read the full post. This is about PvP direction and mechanics. I didn't said anything about OP. I mentioned the Intimidation procs as an example of what's bad in this game, IMO. They're no different than Assailant.
It is quite amazing that you perceived even such a post as a QQ and as anti-GWF.
Lot of people are still QQing on GWF so that's annyoing.
Sorry if you didn't mean that was "op". But I think this is not that bad, it's just a different mechanic.
6gtene,corrupted weapons hits crazy hard
u are bit out dated on tr
SE - USELESS no one is using it
POB-USELLES -Insanly hard to pull of way harder then df in any situation even without mistakes in rotation u cant survive against
any top build any more
very very few used it in mod 3-u couldnt use it on roar gwf,hr even on some trs
not a single good tr is using it in mod 4.
WHIRLWIND OF BLADES- means nothing if u cant hit df-after pob hardest power to pull off
so tr in no were nb friendly or easy mod kill only for decent and pro players with pure pvp spec
anyway a good thread most of it is spot on
I am merely using examples of bad mechanics vs good mechanics. Some described mechanics/rotations are things of the past.
I mentioned PotB, SE and WoB because as "Bad" because these are things you need to tank, as they pretty much always hit. Sure you can dodge some PotB ticks, or go off point and let it bleed, but it will still eat at you.
I mentioned DF as Very Good because it's hard to land it, yet when you do, it does crazy damage. It many times differentiates the very good TRs from average ones.
So again: things described in the topic are just examples to help me illustrate the Good vs the Bad. They might not be used any longer in the current FOTM builds.
agree even when it was viable everyone hated using pob
and it was skill less encounter combined with se
just saying it cant be used any more
Class advantage > Skills + Gear, welcome to Mod 4.
I hate my cw right now.
The thing is the recent class changes have increased controls and damages, and new contents add more stats, but if damage=heal, more stats wouldn't change anything, but atm Damages>Heals, so more stats it means Damages>>Heals.
Mod 5 is TR/DC changes turn, there's hope for you
CW: Can now kill people with Ray of Frost alone.
HR: Just place an oversized TW + StS and watch people die while healing yourself to full with Wild Medicine & Yoga.
TR: Use P.vorp ---> whirlwind 20k crit ---> pop DC artifact ---> whirlwind 20k crit .....
DC: R.I.P.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
GF's are bit over the top too now, keeping with the theme of ez mode laziness, anvil of doom does way too much dmg, too much cc, block is a bit over the top
a lot of changes were made across multiple classes. without actual numbers, build details and proof of imbalance, all accusations against other classes being over-powered are just accusations.
we're going to close this thread/poll but i challenge you or anyone else to provide some details, some numbers, some video, some ACT data that will show that these are more than just accusations.
thanks.