Dealing With PvE AoE

maynolu · August 2014

So here's how most of PvE fights go, both in and out of dungeons;

Me: Stealth
Enemy: Turn to face me
Me: Try to gain combat advantage from stealth
Enemy: Turn to face me again
Me: Try to gain combat advantage, still stealthed, again
Enemy: Turn to face me again
Me: Give up and put down some damage from stealth
Enemy: Cast an AoE
Me: Dodge and lose precious stealth time or get slammed for stupid high damage and/or knocked back
Enemy: Descends their wrath upon me with all of their adds, each one of them spamming their own AoE, just as I am forced from stealth
Me: Drop a smoke bomb and dodge like a seal booping a great white's nose
Enemy: Swarm me because somehow they can all run absolutely faster than I can.
Me: Pop a health potion, restealth, and repeat.

Using Shadowstrike, I think? And Bait and Switch, I can usually keep my stealth up for a while, but most of that time is spent dodging AoE spam. And if I don't dodge that AoE spam? Well some of it does ridiculous amounts of damage others knock me prone so I can't do anything, and my stealth meter just ticks away anyway, only now I have less health too.

This gets especially bad in dungeons where there are multiple players, all triggering AoEs from the various members of the mob in the dungeon. At least when I'm alone I can dismiss my pet when they're causing too much aggro trouble. I seldom, if ever, actually get close enough to any enemy to melee them in dungeons, and there's only so much DPS you can do with throwing knives.

So, is there some super secret method for rogues to deal with all this AoE spam without dying? Or do we just suck that bad at PvE? I mean I try to put points into things like ArP, Power, Crit, Recovery, and Deflection, but most of the high end gear I'm finding is packed with stats like Regeneration that, as I understand it, are useless to rogues. Plus there's the knockdown to consider, as I don't think anything can prevent that.

So is there anything I can do to make myself less useless in PvE? Or am I pretty much gonna be stuck doing Campaigns and Foundries for the foreseeable future?

chestnut13 · August 2014

maynolu wrote: »

So here's how most of PvE fights go, both in and out of dungeons;

Me: Stealth
Enemy: Turn to face me
Me: Try to gain combat advantage from stealth
Enemy: Turn to face me again
Me: Try to gain combat advantage, still stealthed, again
Enemy: Turn to face me again
Me: Give up and put down some damage from stealth
Enemy: Cast an AoE
Me: Dodge and lose precious stealth time or get slammed for stupid high damage and/or knocked back
Enemy: Descends their wrath upon me with all of their adds, each one of them spamming their own AoE, just as I am forced from stealth
Me: Drop a smoke bomb and dodge like a seal booping a great white's nose
Enemy: Swarm me because somehow they can all run absolutely faster than I can.
Me: Pop a health potion, restealth, and repeat.

Using Shadowstrike, I think? And Bait and Switch, I can usually keep my stealth up for a while, but most of that time is spent dodging AoE spam. And if I don't dodge that AoE spam? Well some of it does ridiculous amounts of damage others knock me prone so I can't do anything, and my stealth meter just ticks away anyway, only now I have less health too.

This gets especially bad in dungeons where there are multiple players, all triggering AoEs from the various members of the mob in the dungeon. At least when I'm alone I can dismiss my pet when they're causing too much aggro trouble. I seldom, if ever, actually get close enough to any enemy to melee them in dungeons, and there's only so much DPS you can do with throwing knives.

So, is there some super secret method for rogues to deal with all this AoE spam without dying? Or do we just suck that bad at PvE? I mean I try to put points into things like ArP, Power, Crit, Recovery, and Deflection, but most of the high end gear I'm finding is packed with stats like Regeneration that, as I understand it, are useless to rogues. Plus there's the knockdown to consider, as I don't think anything can prevent that.

So is there anything I can do to make myself less useless in PvE? Or am I pretty much gonna be stuck doing Campaigns and Foundries for the foreseeable future?

Not sure what level you are, but if you are undergeared for the areas you are trying to complete that can be frustrating. However ... you are a rogue dude, you need to learn how to deal with AOE. You have a few choices. If you are a MI, then ITC is your friend. If you are a WK, then make use of range tactics and debuff with DiS. Either way, Duelist's Flurry is your go to ... it's your biggest damage dealer and offers you some immunity during the money phase. You must learn to recognize when something is coming and use your dodges effectively. Being a rogue means constantly dodging in and out to do your damage. You can't expect to face tank, although at higher levels and with better equipment, there is little out there that you can't just go toe to toe with. I also recommend that you make sure your lifesteal is adequate for PVE as well and make sure you have a lesser soulforged.

It CAN be frustrating to learn and there are a lot of guides on here for PVE builds. Being a rogue is about tactics and getting in and out. I also suggest investigating Wicked Reminder and an AOE like PotB ... Smoke Bomb is a good escape hatch when you are pressed.

Hang in there ... at some point it gets really easy. Too easy in fact.

chaoscourtesan · August 2014

Maybe I am reading wrong.. but you said-
"Me: Stealth
Enemy: Turn to face me
Me: Try to gain combat advantage from stealth"

If you are stealthed you have combat advantage, even if you are nose to nose. It sounds like you are stealthing, then just waiting to get hit. But again, maybe I am mis-reading.

But yeah, TR has to move and move and move. That is the fun of the class. It's very aerobic. heheh

Lifesteal is your friend. Have at least 10% HP gained from damage, and preferably 12-13%. After that, it's pretty much no worries.

Talking about PvE of course, I have no idea what PvP do.

EDIT- FacePalm at self... foolishly assumed you were Executioner, as I am. I've not played a scoundrel, no idea what that is like. And No idea what a whisperknife is like. I play my Saboteur almost exactly like my Executioner and get similar results.

And yeah.. until they fix us, dungeons will be harder on TR's than on anyone.. At least without a group that knows how to work with one.

caexar · August 2014

Since it appears you are referring to solo gameplay I will address it as such. The most common mistake that a lot of trickster rogues have when they solo play is their target prioritization. Many will single out the biggest, hardest hitting mob and try to bring them down first. This can be disastrous though when your stealth is empty and your encounters on cooldown. What you should be doing is using stealth time to kill the weakest mobs first so that when you do come out of stealth you aren't immediately gang banged by 4 to 5 different enemies.
Begin with this strategy alone and things will vastly improve.
Second issue is the power selection. I understand the perma stealth mentality, but it sounds like it isn't necessarily the best approach. I run Smoke Bomb, Dazing Strike and Impossible to Catch as encounters and with minimal targets to have to worry about it is very possible to clear groups in dwarven valley even whilst taking minimal damage utilizing daze effects and ItC when others are on cool down. Try ccing instead of hiding and you might be surprised.
Lastly but perhaps most importantly is know your capabilities. If you know a certain number of attacks with a certain at will can drop trash adds, then you become extremely efficient with stealthed attacks. This will take time and practice as all mobs have different HP and behaviors.
Oh and also, stealth grants automatic combat advantage so no need to attack from the rear while stealthed.
Hope this helps a little

pitshade · August 2014

Not sure what level you are or your spec, but for solo content this works well for me. I have a highly geared MI and a decently geared WK. The key to soloing as a TR is dealing with the weak stuff first (as mentioned above). Start off with Blitz, then throw a smoke bomb and finish off the weaker stuff with Sly Flourish. Dazing Strike then works well on the stronger mob and then Duelist's Flurry. Stealth just before Dazing wears off, hopefully smoke is off cooldown by then. If you are fighting mobs that are CC immune, Dazing is still a good damage power but you'll need to learn how the mob attacks, being able to tell which attacks are the slow hard hitting ones and which ones are the faster, less damaging ones are critical.

That's sort of bare bones, but I can give more specific advice is you can say what level you are, or what zone/campaign you're working on.

As far as dungeons go, being MI really helps, sad to say. Impossible to Catch is a must in a number of dungeons and useful in all of them. Also, Skillful Infiltrator's run speed boost can help you stay mobile. Run ahead of the party slightly, pick your target and attack from stealth. The rest of the party then shows up a second later and grabs the aggro. If your group is mostly ranged classes, this is hard to deal with as a TR unless you are really aggressive and can grab aggro FAST before anyone else can get it - but be careful to get aggro only on your target. Deft Strike becomes kind of useful in these situations. Without a melee fighter to hold the mobs in place, you can easily end up doing nothing but chasing stuff around. Don't take threat reduction feats. As a TR you don't build up much threat as it is and if you can't hold aggro on your target you can't use Duelist's Flurry and do any damage.

maynolu · August 2014

Alright, since a lot of peeps are requesting more info on my tactics here we go:
Lvl: 60
Paragon: Master Infiltrator (although it tells me I'm a Whisperknife)
Feats: Saboteur (Cunning Stalker/Sneaky Stabber/Baited Action/Expert Sneak/Sneak of Shadows/Ruthless Efficiency) All maxed
Heroic (Weapon Master[3/3]/Swift Footwork[3/5]/Twilight Adept[5/5]/Improved Cunning Sneak[5/5]) I'm pretty sure those are accurate.

At Wills: Sly Flourish/Duelist's Flury
Dailies: Lurker's Assault/Whirlwind of Blades
Passives: Invisible Infiltrator/Tenacious Concealment
Encounters for Dungeons: Blitz/Path of Blades/Shadow Strike
Encounters for Solo: Shadow Strike/Smokebomb/Bait and Switch

Soloing I do the following:
Stealth
Kill weak mobs with Sly Flourish
Bait and Switch between the boss monster and my companion to build action points while I finish off the rest of the weak mobs.
Shadow Strike the boss to daze them and refill my stealth bar again
Use Duelist's Flury on the boss.
If my Daily is up I'll pop Lurker's Assault and slam the boss monster for 2-3 full Duelist's Flurries.
When my stealth bar is almost down I hit Shadowstrike again.
Hit with one more Duelist's Flury
Usually the boss is dead by now and I can pop out.
If things get real, and I need to cheese it, I smokebomb and run like a seal until either my stealth or Shadow Strike are back up and I can start the cycle over again.

For dungeons usually I do this:
Blitz
Stealth if I have it
Run in the middle of the mob and Path of Blades
Stand at the back of the biggest monster interested in the tank and spam Duelist's Flurry like an epileptic blender.
Use health potions as needed to not die, and if the ground turns red, move.

Keep in mind I'm not looking at my character directly, so some of the feat specs I listed may be a touch off. But the numbers should be mostly correct, and adequate enough to give you an idea how I'm running things. I am glad to hear that killing the weak mobs first is a standard rogue practice. I see a lot of rogues just plowing into things, so some vindication is cool. I am finding, though, that when the healer and tank know what their doing, and put their healing and defense wards up, I can actually last a really long time. My biggest problem is really smaller mobs of beefier beasties who aren't quite 'boss level'.

A good example would be the Flamespikers in that one area, I can't recall the name just now. They're all too tough for me to take down more than one in a stealth rotation, and they never stop moving. Worse yet, when they move, they leave trails of persistent AoEs behind them and I can't hit them without committing to diving into that AoE. Furthermore, the golems in that area will AoE, and then just stand in it while casting ranged attacks at me. So I can't get close enough to hit them without getting burnt to a crisp, and they can just hit me with ranged AoE without moving.

Dread Ring and Shanadar mobs are proving quite easy for me, thankfully. Aside from the teleporting mages in the Dread Ring, I can pretty much melt the face off of any mob in those places without trouble. My DPS in dungeons is still pitifully low, though, and I'd like to contribute more.

I dunno, maybe I just need to start taking the AoEs to the face and pray the healer keeps up. Although that has left me dead on the regular.

wimpazoid · August 2014

To me, an efficient TR will have Swift footwork, Twilight adept, Cunning Streak and any other boons that add stamina regen and AP gain.

I am a PVE MI TR as well with barely 21k HP at stock. I run Skillful Infiltrator and Tenacious Concealment, and use Swashbuckling Captain set. Other than offensive stats, my TR focus on stating movement, lifesteal 1.6k+, defense 1.6k+, deflect 1.1k+.

For soloing, don't waste stealth dealing with trash mobs, always go for the elite.
1. Blitz all the enemies
2. Hit stealth immediately after hitting Blitz. Do it fast enough and the enemies won't hit you first.
3. Close in on the elite enemy, use DF, then stealth LB to kill.
4. If there's more than 1 elite, use SS to refill stealth and go to 3. LB will be on CD, so finish with Blitz instead to kill everything.
5. Sly flourish and kill any still alive taking very little damage.

For Dungeons, I do almost exactly the same thing.
1. Blitz all enemies
2. Lock on an elite enemy and DF, hit stealth after the 2nd hit so the flurry part benefits from stealth.
3. 2nd DF, then finish with stealth LB.
4. Hit SS, Blitz, then repeat 2.

With enough movement and Twilight Adept, I don't have to lose stealth and miss my stealth LB tmiing when I dodge out of AOE and close in again.

Improved Cunning Steak makes it just nice for me to get a 2nd DF in before I use LB from stealth. And if Dazzling Blades procs, LB will be available again after my 2nd DF after I restealth from SS, otherwise I finish with Blitz.

Swift Footwork is a no brainer for me, it's like having an extra dodge roll, while being your in combat stealth refill mechanic to keep you alive against many enemies or when the fight is longer.

The lifesteal, defense and deflect stats works in synergy with DF's flurry immunity. If I can go into flurry when an AOE is about to hit, I don't dodge (unless it is a boss AOE or one I know hits very hard). It's a waste not to utilise TR's higher dodge severity, the defense and dodge means I can take the hit, while in most cases, flurry + lifesteal will heal up whatever health has been taken away instantly (endless consumption helps).

pitshade · August 2014

Hotenow is in some ways the worst of the leveling maps, and that's after it got nerfed. That triple AOE that flamespikers use? It used to prone anyone hit by the initial burst.

I hate to say this, but lose the healer companion. Her AI is one thing that's causing you problems. Get either a striker or a tank pet. They won't kite the mobs away from you, so DF won't drag you through AOEs. Try and stack Lifesteal instead. Some regeneration doesn't hurt either, if you can get it. As long as you kill the weak stuff, especially archers, quickly, the stronger stuff won't be able to hit you while you run around out of stealth. What few attacks are fast enough to do so, won't do much damage.

You have Sneaky Stabber but you're not using Gloaming Cut. I'd swap that in instead of Sly Flourish. You can easily lose BnS and stay in stealth a good long time with that, pretty much forever if you've got the right armor set (any PVP, or Skulker, or even Master Duelist in a pinch) Replace BnS with Blitz to damage the Archons, then stealth and finish them off with Gloaming Cut using its extra damage against wounded mobs. If you are fighting two 'spikers, stay in stealth until one is down. Then just use DF on the remaining one. Dodge past it when it tries the AOE. That way you end up right behind it and can start attacking immediately.

Two tips here. One, when a mob starts a slow AOE attack like that, just go behind them - they're a sitting duck for a few seconds. Two, if you can time it just right, Shadowstrike can be thrown right as stealth is about to run out, dazing the target, but you don't get the stealth refill until you're visible again. This is useful because you can then attack the dazed mob, then throw smoke and attack some more, but you've still got a full bar of stealth.

The magma brute (I assume this is what you mean by golems) are pretty tough, but they're also really slow. When the small red circle appears on you, run away from the brute until the red gets to it's full size. At this point it stops tracking you and you can run out of it without blowing a dodge. Then return to the immobile brute and attack him. His AOE hits well away from him - and thus from where you are - and he's unable to attack you until the animation ends.

trill34 · August 2014

There's a lot of good advice here, especially from Pitshade. As others have previously said, you really should acquaint yourself with Impossible to Catch, especially for skirmishes and dungeons. Just use it on cooldown when you're in combat, and eventually you'll be able to time your use of ITC when you're coming out of stealth (when used from stealth you take no damage).

maynolu · August 2014

See, I used to use Gloaming Cut all the time. But it has an enormous wind up, and the big lunge it does when it executes often got me into more trouble than the stealth buff helped me. I've actually found that using Sly Flourish and Duelist's Flurry I can remain stealthed longer because both of them do significantly greater DPS and are easier to break for applying a restealth solution, due to their comparatively short wind ups.

The massive lunge in Gloaming Cut has also proved a massive detriment due to the finicky targeting system. Sometimes I'll lunge right into the foe I'm aimed at and will cut them down giving myself a massive stealth boost. But just as often I find my reticule apparently targeting another enemy through the armpit of the first, or something, and I lunge right past them, doing no damage, leaving myself vulnerable and losing valuable stealth time.

In fact the only reason I haven't respecced to get rid of the Gloaming Cut feat and put the points into something more useful, is because I can't afford it. The AD cost is too high for me right now.

Also, my go-to pet is actually the tomb spider. I'm guessing whatever you used to take a gander at my character snapped a statshot when I had my healer companion out while I turned in daily quests, so she could level. Usually I only pull my healer companion out in dungeons where the group's Cleric isn't healing me adequately. Ideally, once I can get her upgraded, I'd like my sellsword to be my default companion because she has AoE potential, which could help me a lot with mob and add control in PvE, especially in those solo dungeons like Grimak Nailbiter.

pitshade · August 2014

I assumed you were using the Cleric because you said the 'spikers never stopped moving. Does the Spider pet avoid melee combat, that would cause the same effect that she does.

It's hard for me to give specific advice since both of my TRs (MI and WK) are specced for executioner and my MI is 15.5k with BIS gear etc... so my performance soloing is going to be considerably easier that yours. However, when she was leveling up, I didn't use stealth that much since I hadn't read any guides and really didn't know what I was doing. However, using green gear, she entered the Hotenow map way underlevel and was able to grind out XP without really having any trouble. What she used then is still pretty much my default solo bar - dazing strike, blitz and smoke bomb (she actually didn't have this when she started, she was that much under level for the map) So, try this out. Think of stealth as part of your rotation, not something you have to maintain. Run up to mobs, blitz and then throw smoke, weed out the weaker stuff, then stealth and attack the stronger with dazing. When everything is in cooldown, kite the mobs around until you can start your rotation again. Go the the Chasm map and practice this so the mobs won't be nearly as tough - also as you are level 60, nothing will aggro on you unless you go all the way down to the bottom, meaning you won't pull extra mobs and disrupt your training.

Work on getting AD doing daily quests, sell as much as you can on the AH (if you have extra gold, buy profession stuff, health pots, mounts etc...) and sell those on the AH. Get your respec and if you are only wanting to do PVE (that's all I do) seriously consider going down the executioner path. TR is not in the best spot right now damage wise and you really have to optimize your feats and get the most damage you can.

Also, if you want to run dungeons and don't want to do exploits, consider joining the Legit channel. There are a lot of good players there and most people don't try to stack OP classes in parties. Also you can get some pretty good advice. You can find the link in the Moonstone Mask section of the forum if you're interested.

Dealing With PvE AoE

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