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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Thieves' Den

What is really meant by "permanent" stealth?

discriminatingdiscriminating Member Posts: 86
edited July 2014 in The Thieves' Den
I've been playing my TR for awhile now and thoroughly enjoy the class in both PvP and PvE. I'm curious, though, when the discussion turns to perma stealth TRs, what is really meant by that? Currently, with my profound set, my stealth lasts approximately 10 seconds give or take. I can extend that by rolling obviously, but I'm using that as a bench mark.

So, if I wanted actual permanent stealth, I'd need to get my Shadow Strike cool down to 10 seconds. Currently it's at 12.1 which is a huge difference. My intelligence is 17, which I know may be an issue. My recovery is around 3.4K, which I could probably push higher, but not enough to cover the 2 second gap.

So, my question is am I thinking about what permanent stealth means incorrectly? Assuming no incoming damage (which I know never happens, but as a baseline), is it possible to get your cool down on Shadow Strike low enough to match the amount of time you have for stealth? If so, what stats are required?

As a side note, has anyone figured out the math on recovery and cool downs? I've been playing around with it, but there appears to be a diminishing returns component that I can't figure out.

Thanks!
Post edited by discriminating on

Comments

  • suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    This is a good question, and I don't really know the answer. For it to qualify as a true perma stealth (in my view) one would need the ability to remain stealthed all the time with the use of B&S and nothing else (I don't know if this is possible). Now there is the fighting type "perma stealth" where as long as you have a target you can remain stealthed and this can be done with pretty much any gear and even low recovery and no extra points dedicated to Int.

    Now if you ask most people that don't play a TR, if you can press a button and go into stealth then you are a perma stealth. I have a combat TR with no points in int, only 2 in improved cunning sneak and not using stealth extending armor and I get called a "@&amp;@&lt;font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! OP retched lowlife scum of the earth slime perma" just about every day. This is more commonly hurled at me by classes that do double and triple my damage -- while tanking -- and having one fifth of my deaths if any.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Perma-stealth is a build focused on pvp node contesting / holding. You stay in stealth "permanently" with Bait and Switch, and shadow strike to refill your meter, combined with high int, high recovery, and the pvp armor set bonus. The third encounter is usually impossible to catch so that you can stay immune to cc even if you got hurt badly and are going to lose stealth early. Damage is done with cloud of steel and duelists flurry with a bilethorn enchantment. Lurker's Assault is used for for another get stealth back button for emergencies and Shocking Execution is usually the other daily. Also feats are picked to help stealth as well. Hope all this helps.
  • discriminatingdiscriminating Member Posts: 86
    edited July 2014
    Ah, I got it. So, to answer my own question, there doesn't seem to be a possibility to get Shadow Strike down to a 10 second cool down on its own. I don't use Bait and Switch which is the component I'm missing for actual permanent stealth. I guess I'll just be semi-perma then.

    Thanks all.
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    impossible to catch makes up for the few seconds if your not using bait and switch
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
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  • discriminatingdiscriminating Member Posts: 86
    edited July 2014
    Yup. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something with being able to stay in stealth permanently with just Shadow Strike. I can ease off a bit on recovery, then, and work on other stats.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited July 2014
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  • axis40axis40 Member Posts: 125 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    perma stealth is when you can stay in stealth with bait and ss all the time.
    its easy to do so in trade of blades with 26% recovery or so.
    you also need profound gear,5 feats in stealth and dodge
    in real pvp thats realy hard to maintain and then u use itc
    u should be able to keep it up on dolls tho
  • discriminatingdiscriminating Member Posts: 86
    edited July 2014
    axis40 wrote: »
    ...u should be able to keep it up on dolls tho

    The internet has ruined me for comments like this... :cool:
  • mxtimemxtime Member Posts: 316 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    axis40 wrote: »
    perma stealth is when you can stay in stealth with bait and ss all the time.
    its easy to do so in trade of blades with 26% recovery or so.
    you also need profound gear,5 feats in stealth and dodge
    in real pvp thats realy hard to maintain and then u use itc
    u should be able to keep it up on dolls tho


    yeah coz dolls dont move its easyer to stay perma
    makes sence......
    not that i had any problems with being perma
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    you cant really be perma, you have to abuse what you got.
    1) profound set
    2) tactic to have fast action point
    3) about feats: the t1 about action points in sab, the t1 about cdr in execut. and i would probably go full scoundrel.
    4) lurker assault
    5) bait and switch.

    build action points, lurker, bns, full action point again, lurker.
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Full 100% perma IS possible, but the feats/skills you need for it is sort of "out of standard" nowadays since an overwhelming majority of TRs choose to take in DF rather than GC. It also means a lot of dodges wasted to refill snips and bits of stealth, as well as always being close enough to your target to land GC -- which also implies inherent dangers.

    Usually, nowadays the term "perma" is meant to describe TRs that are capable of maintaining at least 3 consecutive stealth durations for around 27~30 seconds, or even in some cases 4 or 5 -- before the mathematical differences between the stealth duration and the individual recharge time of BnS and SS inevitably brings out a vulnerable timing where you have both BnS and SS in recharge while stealth is down. This is anywhere between 1~2 seconds to sometimes 7~10 seconds.

    As for the very popular [SS/ITC/ 1 x offensive/utility encounter] + [DF/CoS] builds, these are what is usually known as "semi-permas". which, if anyone is interested, the term originates from yours truly... just like how the term 'combat TR' also came from myself... heh.


    One common mistake, is that people not very versed in TR builds/tactics usually have a tendency to call any TR who uses SS to re-enter stealth as "permas". I'm sure we've all experienced infuriariated opponents trying to "insult" us by calling us "permas", when in fact our builds would be nothing like permas at all. I've even been called a "perma" when in the days I've used the VP-Dazing Strike combo build, which would actually stay out of stealth longer than staying in stealth.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • discriminatingdiscriminating Member Posts: 86
    edited July 2014
    It would be interesting to see if there was a way to get your cool down low enough on SS that BnS isn't necessary in the rotation. My 2 second differential is way too much to overcome at the moment, but I'll continue to play around with it. But, as I said, I don't use BnS anyway so I guess I would fall into the semi-perma category. Also, couldn't you have come up with a better term if you were the originator? :p
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    If you use gloaming cut you might not need BnS, although it's hard to keep using GC without being hit. But in theory it's possible to keep stealth with just Gloaming cut and SS to refill stealth.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • clericalistclericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Am I right in assuming that most here are talking about pvp and not pve ? The rogue is not my main character, so I don't play it a lot but I have a lowly 10k master infiltrator near perma stealth for pve. It is a quick put together character with gear mostly from the dread ring and sharandar campaign, using bait and switch, shadow strike and gloaming cut. I can stay in stealth for most of solo campaign and many dungeon encounters (but obviously not for all for the dungeon bosses). Doing ice wind quests with him is as easy as it gets, things like the mother load encounters I can stay alive forever if I am there by myself, obviously when a lot of people start arriving then with all the aoe damage I have to dodge and it does not work. I managed to get the black ice gloves on the second day doing this, with my a 16k cleric I have being trying for 2 months and still no luck.

    Obviously in pvp the enemy does not stand obligingly stand still for the gloaming cuts though :p
  • rgladiatorgladiato Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    clericalist wrote: »
    Am I right in assuming that most here are talking about pvp and not pve ? The rogue is not my main character, so I don't play it a lot but I have a lowly 10k master infiltrator near perma stealth for pve. It is a quick put together character with gear mostly from the dread ring and sharandar campaign, using bait and switch, shadow strike and gloaming cut I can stay in stealth for most of solo campaign and many dungeon encounters, but obviously not all for the dungeons. Doing ice wind quests with him is as easy as it gets. Obviously in pvp the enemy does not stand obligingly stand still for the gloaming cuts though :p

    Good point. I was assuming pvp as well but it is a lot easier to use gloaming cut in pve to stay stealthed.
    Nixon the TR
    Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
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