CW rework for mod 4 - suggestion

pompalompa · July 2014

copied from another thread, to open discussion

dolour79 wrote: »

(...)
spellselection is a bad joke as it is, leave alone that we neither get highten, maximise, enlarge, nor empower or at least quicken.
why exactly did i roll a wiz if i get neither, damage or kill-capabilities(wheres wotb or weired to get rid of trash? finger of death? power word kill? enlarged, empowered, maximised and hightened fireballs? THATS what a "CW" is supposed to be capable of!), illusions or real cc spells(no sphere of dancing, no hold person/monster, leave alone the mass versions, no invisibility or magic trick, not even sleep.), nor any utility worth mentioning(not even stoneskin, resist elements, preminition, any of the tenser's spells, levitation, portal, at least some summon monster xy NOTHING)?
you gave the darn cw nothing but dumb damage, and now you want to eliminate that too?
by gimping shard down to 3k non-crits with endgame gear youve crossed the line, im really pissed and if this stuff goes life the way it is on preview now, im outta here!

(...)

in d&d "striker" doesent mean "dps" but singletarget, and "control" refers to "aoe" and not cc.
yes indeed, "cw's" are d&d's aoe-nukes(alongside with sorcerers, who have more spells per day in exchange for poor metamagics).
AOE DPS is what WIZARDS are best at, if you want "control" as in terms of cc, a BARD would be your class.
so please, if you want to toss around funny sounding terms, make at least sure you have any clue what your actually talking about. thnx.

cant agree More here.

i must say when the Warlock "CURSE" mechanic got released, i immediately thought:
hey, how about killing the TAB spellslot for for wizard, and giving him a new ability on TAB: ONE universal buff charge that will highten, maximise, enlarge, empower or quicken. your next spell?
you'd have to chain your TAB buff with the following QER spell you'd want improved - giving more situational response abilities in PvE and PvP: you can CHOOSE to EITHER keeping the burst potential, gain a quickened/enhanced control, or improved AoE sweep capability for the trash... etc.

sure it'd be a complete rework of the class mechanic, and maybe too similar to warlocks curse, (but better?)
it would tone down the Mass dpsing/ mass controlling overkill with four encounters in PvE (,which is the core of our DPS and utility OPness problem in my opinion,) without having to nerf down each and every spell.

you could even improve this TAB empower DIFFERENTLY at the end of each FEAT TREE, making a clear difference in gameplay. rough examples could as follows, but don't pin me down here i pulled these out in a hurry:

oppressor control tree: funnel magic - TAB cooldown get shortened for each control spell landed by X seconds
thaumaturge (AOE)debuff tree: penetration - TAB gives a secondary effect on top: X seconds resistance debuff on spellhit
renegade (Self)buffer tree: chaotic magic - TAB gets a 5 or so% chance not to consume its charge on activation

so whatdy'all think?

nathanmehew2435 · July 2014

Not to burst your bubble but i don't like the idea one bit, Mainly because i am so use to having 4 encounters as a CW and changing that when there is SOOO many CW's means not just me but EVERYONE will have to change there play style because of something so simple. Yes people change encounters all the time with updates but just taking one of there encounters away and making them use something like a debuff on the tab slot means they should just switch to playing the Warlock and forget the CW in general, The best part about the CW is the fact that it has the 4th encounter slot that does a enhanced encounter attack so why change that and just change damage at witch spells do that's all that needs to be done.

relativity · July 2014

I'm all for such a change.

Now you have 3 encounters + 1 with additional effect. If you had tab mechanics like DC, TR you'd have 3 encounters + 3 encounters with additional effect once tab meter is filled. I'm for more options for cost of additional encounter.

Only me saying.

matiagronx · July 2014

A Tabbed spell is like its already "heightened, maximised, enlarged, empowered or quickened", the fact that the tabbed special for most encounters sucks big time is another thing. Truth is that one of the most beloved and complicated classes in DnD, the Wizard, is NOWHERE near the thing u call CW in this game. I really dont know what WoTC is thinking about this. Maybe they save it for later, i hope. Also we havent seen fireball yet so this game, wizard wise, is still at low level.

pompalompa · July 2014

nathanmehew2435 wrote: »

Not to burst your bubble but i don't like the idea one bit, Mainly because i am so use to having 4 encounters as a CW and changing that when there is SOOO many CW's means not just me but EVERYONE will have to change there play style because of something so simple. Yes people change encounters all the time with updates but just taking one of there encounters away and making them use something like a debuff on the tab slot means they should just switch to playing the Warlock and forget the CW in general, The best part about the CW is the fact that it has the 4th encounter slot that does a enhanced encounter attack so why change that and just change damage at witch spells do that's all that needs to be done.

thanks for the answer, but i dont agree here. the fourth empowered encounter imposes much more problems that the TAB modifier, because you need to balance not only 3 - but four spell combinations on slots. didnt do the maths, but thats alot more than any other class requires.
for example: on preview, they nerfed shard damage to give steal time more, because both together were too strong along with two extra encounters. with three encounters, it'd be more in place. as of now on the preview, shard doesnt feel any rewarding if you land it.

also, i think you misunderstood what i meant by TAB: EMPOWER. its not just a debuff.
basically its removing the fourth encounter to be able to choose which of the three remaining gets the upgrade, when and where its needed most. its toning down the overall damage while increasing gameplay effort because you'd have to TAB different spells in different situations. Boring AOE nuke wizzies gets sophisticated gameplay. Also, Every TAB ability brings more options to the 3 encounters, not only for Warlocks as you mention it, Hunter Ranger switches melee to Ranged, and Trickster Rogue gets his bonus effects in Stealth.

(Edit: The wizard is already in a bad place compared to the Warlock, who has a striker/debuffer role and is able to facetank some damage with lifesteal and damage debuffs, so the even squishier wizard is a paper Toon that does nothing good enough on preview)

Generally speaking, every class plays with three spells. the fourth spell falls totally out of line, and now it needs to be nerfed somehow. generally i feel it would be better to have three strong spells with an option to enhance/alter one of them with the TAB ability depending the situation, than four weaker spells that dont matter much anymore with their control time and damage nerfed.

Thats not only the problem with PvE, but also in PvP:
wizzies either slot nukes and nuke everything they catch offguard, or they chose control abilities and let the team do the work. since they are the squishiest class they need to react fast - but still can't adapt to the different situations. the TAB ability would change that. ofcours it needs to get a cooldown, that needs to be tested in PvE and PvP. [I]or make the TAB ability use up the Stamina bar like they do for Guardian fighters already.[/I] scratch that, it'd just make another stat on the gear and cause even more problems

hefisdo · July 2014

I think that instead of Spellstorm Mage and Master of Flame we should have a Control path and a Striker path. GWF got a Defender and a Striker path, why can't we have the same?

The Control path focuses on AoE, giving hard control and damage for lots of foes. The Striker path focuses on destroying a single foe inside out and using enfeeblement spells. The "Control" of "Control Wizard" will still make sense since we have CC spells on both paths, but the Control path is AoE CC and the Striker path is single target CC.

caunsidh · July 2014

hefisdo wrote: »

I think that instead of Spellstorm Mage and Master of Flame we should have Overwhelming Mage (Control) and Master of Trauma (Striker). GWF got a Defender and a Striker path, why can't we have the same?

The Control path focuses on AoE, giving hard control and damage for lots of foes. The Striker path focuses on destroying a single foe inside out and using enfeeblement spells. The "Control" of "Control Wizard" will still make sense since we have CC spells on both paths, but the Control path is AoE CC and the Striker path is single target CC.

I honestly don't think we should use Fire and Lightning, in my opinion this is not for Wizards.

You're missing the fact that this game is based on Dungeons and Dragons.

hefisdo · July 2014

caunsidh wrote: »

You're missing the fact that this game is based on Dungeons and Dragons.

Not sure about when on anything based on 4th edition there were shields coming from nowhere summoned by fighters w/o shield. Master of Flame paragon path doesnt exist in the 4th edition too AFAIK.

pompalompa · July 2014

hefisdo wrote: »

snip.

sounds like you want to divide the class into two completely different roles.

could be a good idea, but restoring the Core Paths is a much much greater gamebreaking intervention tho. you'd have to invent totally new spells and feats.. I don't see that coming, - it would be more or less starting from scratch, without even adressing the main issues wizards have right now. and might bring some more up on the way.

the TAB change's still better in my opinion. keep in mind that along with a few feat and spell number tweaks, all stays the same, you'd just be improving gameplay with the infight EMPOWER possibilities, while keeping the long term damage of 4 encounter OPness in line with other DPSers

ahsher · July 2014

Class abilities do actually fulfill the mechanic you speak of somewhat ie: Evocation, Eye of the Storm
I am definitely in favor of a power or 2 that do "Serious Damage" Single Target or AoE

Replace Ray of Enfeeblement with: Mage's Disjunction: Target is unable to use any Encounter powers for 3 Seconds or may attack and lose % of health.

Replace Storm Fury with Displacement: All damage for ... 2, 4, 6 Seconds is deflected with ICD

Rework: Change Shard Of Endless Avalanche to Meteor Storm Effect: Prones all targets Visible and Invisible (max 8) within 30 feet; Control immune targets are not proned but can not deflect the attack.
This helps in many ways overcome the issues with terrain obstacles interacting with SoTEA. It makes the power easier to control as it's a 30 foot burst (closest targets first)

CW rework for mod 4 - suggestion

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